Sony KV-27FS100 Misalignment Isse?

[Tempest_2084]

Any idea what could be causing the letters in this image to look 'off'? I'm using SCART cables with a Shinybow to plug into the component plugs on the TV. I'm thinking that the guns on the TV are misaligned a bit, but I don't know if there's an easy way to fix that short of mucking with the yoke. I'm willing to open it up and do some work, but I'm nervous playing with a tube this big, I've only ever opened up small monitors before.

http://atariprotos.com/temp/nestv3.jpg
http://atariprotos.com/temp/nestv.jpg

Or is this just as good as a crappy consumer grade TV gets?

[Josh128]

Post a pic of the entire screen with text and/or a grid on it. Get a good picture of the center. We need to see if its bad all over or just far left/right / top / bottom. Appears you have some misconvergence in both the vertical and horizontal. There should be an H-stat pot adjustment on your neckboard that you can tinker with, but if the horizontal misconvergence is not in the center of the screen, it might not help. There should also be an XCV reactor adjustment that can help even out if your convergence issues keystone (ie cross/switch) from the far left to the far right of the screen.

Definitely have some issues, you do, that is definitely not as good as it gets.

This is from my 27FS170.

Spoiler

[Tempest_2084]

Ok here's a screen full of text on the NES
http://atariprotos.com/temp/nestv4.jpg

Here's a grid form the 240p Test Suite on the Genesis
http://atariprotos.com/temp/grid1.jpg

Here's a grid form the 240p Test Suite on the SNES
http://atariprotos.com/temp/grid4.jpg

Also here's one of my NeoSD screen where you can see the heinous misalignment in the upper right
http://atariprotos.com/temp/neotv2.jpg

The problem areas seem to be the bottom 1/4 of the screen (blue alignment), the lower left corner (blue and red), and the upper right (green/red).


Do these help? If I can do some dial adjustments inside the CRT I'd be much happier than if I have to go touching the yoke or purity magnets. I can take more (maybe clearer) pictures as well.

There should be an H-stat pot adjustment on your neckboard that you can tinker with, but if the horizontal misconvergence is not in the center of the screen, it might not help. There should also be an XCV reactor adjustment that can help even out if your convergence issues keystone (ie cross/switch) from the far left to the far right of the screen.

H-Stat I've heard of, but I don't know much about. XCV is new to me. I do have some convergence strips, but I never tried to use them

This is from my 27FS170.

Beautiful! I hope I can get somewhere near that.

[matt]

Yes, the H Stat pot should greatly reduce your horizontal convergence problem. Its a godsend for Trinitron users.

The rest of the screen can be improved, but it's much more difficult and probably will never be perfect. It's up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

[Josh128]

That full screen shot of the NES text appears to show a pretty significant purity issue on the lower left quadrant and a bit on the right center. A purity magnet may have come off the tube or someone messed with the purity and convergence rings and jacked things up. Some strategically placed magnets ( I like the 1 cm x 1.2mm neo's, you can stack them for more power) on the back of the tube can help with that purity issue.

As far as convergence, blue definitely appears to be hanging to the right just about everywhere on the screen, the H-stat pot should definitely be able to help there. On a closer look, I wouldnt mess with the XCV reactor core adjustment, I dont see much if any keystoning convergence issues.

**EDIT-- its possible that the screen is just gaussed (magnetized) as well, or it doesnt like the orientation in relation to the earths magnetic fields that its aligned. Is the degausser working, does it make the "konk" sound when turning on for the first time?

[Tempest_2084]

That full screen shot of the NES text appears to show a pretty significant purity issue on the lower left quadrant and a bit on the right center. A purity magnet may have come off the tube or someone messed with the purity and convergence rings and jacked things up. Some strategically placed magnets ( I like the 1 cm x 1.2mm neo's, you can stack them for more power) on the back of the tube can help with that purity issue.

As far as convergence, blue definitely appears to be hanging to the right just about everywhere on the screen, the H-stat pot should definitely be able to help there. On a closer look, I wouldnt mess with the XCV reactor core adjustment, I dont see much if any keystoning convergence issues.

**EDIT-- its possible that the screen is just gaussed (magnetized) as well, or it doesnt like the orientation in relation to the earths magnetic fields that its aligned. Is the degausser working, does it make the "konk" sound when turning on for the first time?

Yes the degausser is working, although I also have a handheld one I could use if you think that could be a problem. Can't do much about the orientation though.

So my first steps should be to adjust the H-STAT pot then see if a convergence strip or two will help with the corner purity issue? Any tips on where to put the strip?

BTW would more and/or better screenshots help?

[Tempest_2084]

Yes, the H Stat pot should greatly reduce your horizontal convergence problem. Its a godsend for Trinitron users.

The rest of the screen can be improved, but it's much more difficult and probably will never be perfect. It's up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

I'm willing to do some work, but I also don't want to make things worse which is why I'm reluctant to play with the yoke or the purity magnets too much. At least with the magnets you can mark where they originally were.

[Taiyaki]

That can definitely be improved, but you can't get corners perfect. It's usually a combination of focus and convergence issues. If you aim for great convergence you'll almost certainly throw off the geometry. Generally a compromise is good, but if you have to choose I recommend going with better geometry always, since bad corner or edge geometry tends to be more noticeable than bad convergence.

It could be wear on it, but you have an FS100 and even the out of box is really poor and requires internal work to make good. Usually FV series such as the FV300/310 are going to need less, but even those would need some work out of box too (never seen a brand new 310 but assuming it comes out similarly to a brand new 300).

Adjusting the rings themselves are the trickiest part. Usually you can make some slight changes to the focus knob, and the two convergence knobs on the board, and then nudge the yoke a bit if needed (will require loosening up the glue) and then finish off with permalloy strips around the yoke to the best you can (you can never get 100% perfect geometry and convergence as noted above, so pick your preference). People really familiar and knowledgeable can play with the rings themselves but when you don't understand it it's more likely to make things worse in my experience.

Those are just consumer sets, and out of box geometry is actually a bit worse than just vertically flat Trinitrons, but once adjusted the do provide better image quality than all consumer grade CRT's in my opinion.

[Josh128]

A full white and full r,g,b screens may show the purity issues in more detail. If you can post those.

If you dont want to get too involved, just try the H-stat pot and some strategically placed magnets. If you decide to try the rings, be sure to mark a white/visible line across them before you move them, that way you can get back exactly how you were should you need to.

As far as the yoke, I always try to avoid that. Thats set at the factory and glued, so it shouldnt have moved. Its possible there are some tiny magnets/permalloys taped or glued inside the yoke coil that could possibly have fallen / come undone, but thats pretty unlikely I think. Plus if you move the yoke, the original position of the rings becomes invalid I think, so they would have to be manually tuned and you would be all in at that point.

[Tempest_2084]

A full white and full r,g,b screens may show the purity issues in more detail. If you can post those.

If you dont want to get too involved, just try the H-stat pot and some strategically placed magnets. If you decide to try the rings, be sure to mark a white/visible line across them before you move them, that way you can get back exactly how you were should you need to.

As far as the yoke, I always try to avoid that. Thats set at the factory and glued, so it shouldnt have moved. Its possible there are some tiny magnets/permalloys taped or glued inside the yoke coil that could possibly have fallen / come undone, but thats pretty unlikely I think. Plus if you move the yoke, the original position of the rings becomes invalid I think, so they would have to be manually tuned and you would be all in at that point.

Ok I'll get some of those. What's a good way to do that? Does the 240p Test Suite have pure white/RGB screens?

With the rings, which set do I want to move? The middle ones?

[Josh128]

Yeah the suite has the full color screens.

Im not sure which rings are which on your model, you would need to find a manual and check on that. Before you touch the rings, try the H-stat pot first. Should be somewhere on the top part of the neckboard.

[Tempest_2084]

Ok here are some more pictures, I hope they help. For some reason I just can't take decent photos of the screen, I think it's because my basement is too dark.

First, here's a screen from my SD2SNES cart. As you can see that the text has some serious blue bleed on it. Is this more of an issue with my RGB to Component converter (a Shinybow) or SCART cable rather than the TV?
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest9.jpg

Here's the color bars with the SNES 240p Test Suite. As you can see the colors really blur together from the middle to the end. I've played with color/picture/sharpness settings but nothing seems to help that
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest1.jpg

Here's the linearity test on the SNES. You can see the color misalignment in the corners really well here:
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest2.jpg

Color bars on the Genesis
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest3.jpg

Color bleed on the Genesis. The white is really bad for color misalignment
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest4.jpg
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest5.jpg

White screen (Genesis). That circle pattern doesn't look nearly as pronounced in person, but I think it's there. The phone just makes it look super bad.
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest10.jpg

Red screen (Genesis).
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest6.jpg

Green screen (Genesis).
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest7.jpg

Blue screen (Genesis).
http://atariprotos.com/temp/tvtest8.jpg

[Josh128]

That ring in the center looks like something Ive seen before somewhere. Might be yoke depth position related or something that can be adjusted with the purity rings.

Perhaps someone else here might know right off hand. I have a copy of the Sony crt TV trouble shooting manual, I will check later to see if it has something like that as a common issue.

[Tempest_2084]

That ring in the center looks like something Ive seen before somewhere. Might be yoke depth position related or something that can be adjusted with the purity rings.

Perhaps someone else here might know right off hand. I have a copy of the Sony crt TV trouble shooting manual, I will check later to see if it has something like that as a common issue.

According to the service manual it appears to be something to do with the yoke positioning:

[Josh128]

That's what I suspected. Odd that the yoke would have moved from it's factory glued position though. If its still glued you may try the rings and magnets first. Its not like theres just a single patch of color on just the left or right of the screen though. You've got this whole halo thing going on. You're just going to have to open her up and take a looksee.

[Tempest_2084]

That's what I suspected. Odd that the yoke would have moved from it's factory glued position though. If its still glued you may try the rings and magnets first. Its not like theres just a single patch of color on just the left or right of the screen though. You've got this whole halo thing going on. You're just going to have to open her up and take a looksee.

Maybe it got bumped or something? Still, it's not really color purity, it's more a discoloration. It's really odd. Maybe someone else here has seen this sort of thing before?

I'm not against mucking with the yoke, I just don't want to move it and have everything go to hell and not be able to get back to where I was. The guys over on the CRT Collective facebook page are saying that the yoke needs adjusting so I guess there's nothing for it then.

[Tempest_2084]

Someone also suggested that the weird halo I'm seeing could be misconfigured RGB guns. They said that one of the colors might be set too high. I'll have to look at that in the service menu, but I'm not 100% sure which RGB I'm looking for.

[Tempest_2084]

I played with my RGB gain and cut off values, but they have no effect on that pattern. I guess it's either adjust the yoke or live with it.

[Josh128]

Try the H-stat AND the rings before you move the yoke. Moving the yoke should be the last resort, unless you see its clearly loose / has been unglued and moved. You may find that the pot and the rings make it much better. Easy stuff. Just mark the rings before you move them so you can come back.

[Tempest_2084]

Try the H-stat AND the rings before you move the yoke. Moving the yoke should be the last resort, unless you see its clearly loose / has been unglued and moved. You may find that the pot and the rings make it much better. Easy stuff. Just mark the rings before you move them so you can come back.

Yeah I'll start with that first. Honestly, if I can get the convergence issues fixed I can live with that halo/ring pattern. Unless you have a solid color screen going it's not even noticeable.

[Taiyaki]

There's a lot of room for improvement but I wouldn't expect too much, some degree of convergence issues in the corners or sides is to be expected.

[Tempest_2084]

There's a lot of room for improvement but I wouldn't expect too much, some degree of convergence issues in the corners or sides is to be expected.

I understand, I just want to see if I can fix the most egregious of the issues.

[Tempest_2084]

Ok I got the cover off and I have an important question before I go touching things. There appears to be some sort of insulated wire running around the yoke area

http://atariprotos.com/temp/yoke1.jpg

Is this safe to touch? Adjusting the yoke without touching it will be almost impossible as it appears to be attached to the plastic of the yoke itself. I've never seen a wire like this before so I don't know what it is.


Also where is the H-STAT adjustment in this picture? Is that little dial it?

http://atariprotos.com/temp/yoke2.jpg

If I do decide to adjust the yoke, I noticed there are two screws holding it in instead of the normal one. I assume I'd have to loosen both.

[Taiyaki]

Make sure you check the service manual. Normally you get positioning knobs, two convergence knobs, and you get a focus and a g2 knob. Definitely don't touch the g2 for what you're trying to achieve. I'd just work on the two convergence and the focus, but the focus with moderation as it's not usually in need of much if any tweaking.

You use a screwdriver to adjust them on the FS-100 if I'm not mistaken. Make sure it's all unplugged. Can't say there's 0 risk as it still holds voltages and you can still get zapped (potentially very badly). Keep hands away from the back of the tube area especially the plunger looking part that connects to the yoke as that's usually the most dangerous high voltage area, but in general just avoid touching what you don't need to.

[Tempest_2084]

They're knobs on the FS100, no screwdriver needed.

What does the G2 knob do? Could that help with my color purity issue?

I generally know what's safe to touch, but that insulated ring (wire?) going around the yoke is new to me. My smaller CRTs didn't have that.

[Josh128]

The insulated ring appears to be the rotation coil. Your set apparently has a working rotation adjustment in the service menu.

[Tempest_2084]

The insulated ring appears to be the rotation coil. Your set apparently has a working rotation adjustment in the service menu.

Ah. Yes it does. So is that ok to touch while the set is on or is that to be avoided?

[Josh128]

The insulated ring appears to be the rotation coil. Your set apparently has a working rotation adjustment in the service menu.

Ah. Yes it does. So is that ok to touch while the set is on or is that to be avoided?

Thats fine to touch. Most everything on the yoke is safe to touch, but dont touch what you dont need to for obvious safety reasons.

You want to stay away from the anode cap on the top of the tube, the HV wire coming from it, and the flyback transformer / HV area on the chassis. Dont adjust flyback focus or screen by hand, even if you can easily do so. You should use a plastic screwdriver but if you dont have one, use a well insulated screwdriver and be careful not to touch any metal part of the screwdriver you use. Dont kill yourself, lol.

The H-stat pot should be that black pot you showed in your first pic. Start there.

[Tempest_2084]

Dont adjust flyback focus or screen by hand, even if you can easily do so. .

I just got myself a set of insulated screwdrivers since I've been needing some. Out of curiosity, why can't you touch the focus and screen knobs on the flyback? It looks like thick black plastic, shouldn't that be safe? I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious.

[Josh128]

Out of curiosity, why can't you touch the focus and screen knobs on the flyback? It looks like thick black plastic, shouldn't that be safe? I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious.

The flyback transformer generates 30KV+. 30KV can jump an air gap of 1 cm+ cold start. Once the arc occurs, it can extend for far a far longer distance than 1 cm. It can stop your heart in an instant.

"Technically", if your chassis is isolated from earth ground, and you are at normal earth ground potential, it wont shock you. BUT-- If you happen to be touching ANYWHERE on the metal chassis with any part of your body (or be even within 1CM of it) and happen to touch any part of the HV with any other part of your body, or if your chassis IS at earth ground potential, it will light you up.

The truth is, you might be just fine adjusting that pot with your bare fingers, if all the stars align and everything is great. But what if there is some cracked / degraded insulation on that flyback? What if your body, unaware to you, is at the same potential as the HV return / chassis ground? You could easily shock the living fuck out of and/or kill yourself by touching that knob with your finger.

The fact that you seem unaware of how dangerous putting your fingers anywhere near an energized flyback transformer can be makes me think you probably shouldnt be attempting any of this. Be very careful bro.