Is there any risk of scanline burn in on OLED?

[Mantis128]

I've finally settled on trying to eventually save up for an OLED as an all in one gaming TV, but there's one question I've got that's burning into my mind. Scanlines are kind of a must for 240/288p games imo; and I prefer more lite scanlines (i.e hybrid) as opposed to the solid black look others prefer. What I'm wondering is if there's any risk of burn in on OLED when using brighter scanlines since they're not solid black. Or should I just settle for complete black scanlines?

[Josh128]

Black lines will give greater potential for burn in than non-black lines. Burn in = uneven phosphor / led wear, so the higher the contrast between two lines or areas, the more chance you have for uneven wear.
That said, I've never seen a plasma, CRT, or OLED with visible burn in from 240p faux scanlines. They are so evenly spaced and cover the entire screen so it might take a very bad case of it for you to even notice.

That said, if you are using an even integer scaling for your panel, you could just shift the image vertically by the amount of pixels you are scaling every so often, say once every couple weeks or so. This would switch positions of the black line and the image line, thus making even wear possible and completely eliminating any chance of 240p scanline burn in.

[naz]

Hi,

I play mostly 240p games with dark scanlines on a lg oled and its fine, don't worry about it. Burn in usually happens to people that spend the whole day watching news channel with a permanent logo on the screen.

I do worry a bit on games that have a menu fixed on the screen like Doom, Ys, Mario 3, etc; but this is something you'll worry with or without scalines. So far so good (I have my oled since 2017).

Here are some cellphone pics I took a while back:

Spoiler

Cheers

[fernan1234]

@naz
Those pictures look really good. They're OSSC hybrid scanlines, or a shader on an emulator? Either way, would you mind sharing your settings for them?


As to the topic question, I wouldn't worry about it at all unless this is the only type of content you put on the panel and for extended periods of time.

[naz]

Sure, here you go:

Those pics were taken using an OSSC with a pvm look in mind. The settings are:

- Output: 5x, 4:3 generic, 1200P (don't use optimal, that's too square, the point is getting rounded lines, also 1200P will only work on a 4k tv)
- Hybrid: 31%
- Method: Subtraction (Multiplication is supposed to be better... but is not, I think is a flawed approach)
- Type: Custom
- On custom the sub lines to: 37%, 0%, 0%, 37%, 100%

The idea is to always have a dark line (line 5th says 100% but is not pure black, it's just dark) and lines 1st and 4th are supposed to add thickness like a pvm does, meaning: the brighter the color, the thicker the line.

Also, don't add vertical lines, they don't work on horizontal lines 1, 4 and 5. The OSSC lets you use vertical or horizontal scanlines, but not both.

Try the settings on a 2D game and see if you like it.

Cheers

[Josh128]

images are broken for me, can anyone else still see them?

[fernan1234]

Sure, here you go:

Those pics were taken using an OSSC with a pvm look in mind. The settings are:

- Output: 5x, 4:3 generic, 1200P (don't use optimal, that's too square, the point is getting rounded lines, also 1200P will only work on a 4k tv)
- Hybrid: 31%
- Method: Subtraction (Multiplication is supposed to be better... but is not, I think is a flawed approach)
- Type: Custom
- On custom the sub lines to: 37%, 0%, 0%, 37%, 100%

The idea is to always have a dark line (line 5th says 100% but is not pure black, it's just dark) and lines 1st and 4th are supposed to add thickness like a pvm does, meaning: the brighter the color, the thicker the line.

Also, don't add vertical lines, they don't work on horizontal lines 1, 4 and 5. The OSSC lets you use vertical or horizontal scanlines, but not both.

Try the settings on a 2D game and see if you like it.

Cheers

Thanks for all the details! Saving this post for sure. Those are the most PVM-like scanlines I've seen from an OSSC, so you really did a great job dialing them in. I really favor this look as well, so it's great to know this can be achieved.

Hopefully these settings will translate smoothly to the OSSC Pro when it comes out.

[PearlJammzz]

images are broken for me, can anyone else still see them?

I am unable to see them as well. Naz, you think you could re-upload those pictures?

[naz]

That's weird, I can still see them. I edit the post with new links.

I "calculated" the above settings using some brightness criteria that I came up.

The OSSC pro will have 6x, all I want to do with it is to use: 37%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 37%, 100%. The extra 0% line will make the overall image brighter, without losing the variable thickness shown above.


Anyway, dark scanlines haven't add burn in on my tv, so I guess newer ones will be ok too.

[Josh128]

I can see them now. Damn that looks super-great. What kind of total lag are you getting with that setup? Is that a 4K OLED?

[naz]

Glad you like it.

And yes, the tv is a 4k oled model B7. The OSSC is lagless (the scanlines doesn't add any lag), all the lag comes from the tv upscaling from 1200 to 2160. I haven't measure it, but it's supposed to be 21 ms on pc mode with all processing off, so around 1,3 frames of lag. I really don't notice it, even playng fast games like most NES plataformers.

oh, and I remember the one time I got a burn image. It was a menu screen to input your character name, gender, etc; I went to lunch and left the tv on, once I came back I notice a ghost image when exiting the menu. Fortunately, it went away after playing for a while. According to google this is called "temporal burn in" and is, well... temporal lol. So nothing to worry about.

[fernan1234]

Usually the distinction is between (temporary) "image retention" and (permanent) "burn in". Panels since 2017 are pretty good at getting rid of image retention. Some LCDs (especially IPS) can also get image retention, though from different conditions. Flickering elements will cause image retention on IPS LCDs but not on OLEDs, and vice versa for static elements.

[Josh128]

I just saw a floor model 55" LG CX on sale at my local Conns for $987. Even with all the 65" C1's and the Samsung Neo QLEDs all around it, that 55" CX had the most beautiful picture Ive ever seen. If I had not just picked up a Samsung PN60F5300BFXZA plasma for $50 and fixed it for $100 and set it up in my bedroom to replace my ailing PN514500AFXZA, I would have picked it up. It took all my willpower to not pick this thing up. Im no longer there and Im still thinking about picking it up.

[XtraSmiley]

I've been using an LG OLED (C9 65") for a few years now and I always use scan lines. No burn in yet, but weirdly enough, my regular TV view looks like a CRT now...


I kid, I kid, no, there is no burn in so far! I do keep the brightness on my set around 60% as the room is dark enough and I have all of the burn in reduction modes on.

[bigbadboaz]

Don't worry Josh, there will be better deals down the line. Sounds like you already got quite the deal for yourself. And no matter how it looked, floor model OLED sounds like the perfect nightmare as A/V purchases go.

[Josh128]

@Boaz, yeah, I know, but surprisingly I didnt see any signs of image retention or burn in on this unit. It was running the "dribble of honey on pitch black background" demo and it literally stopped me in my tracks lol. Had I seen this unit at this price a month ago when I began scouring FB marketplace for 2014 B series plasmas for my bedroom I would have jumped all over it. The 60" I have now indeed has an awesome picture, but I love the prospect of getting authentic looking 480p scanlines that can be acheived on a 1440p monitor (and presumably, from the 5X thread, a 2160p monitor/tv). Its not possible to get that with an integer scale on a 1080p set, but Mikes new 5X firmware teases look EXTREMELY cool.

Im not sure what black magic he would have had to work to be able to pull it off but if even it can fake some kind of 480p non-integer scanlines that look semi authentic on a 1080p set, that would be super amazing. I cant wait to try it.

[bigbadboaz]

I hear ya, man.. I've been waiting quite a while for the "right" 4K OLED for me. We'll both get there

[xeos]

Usually the distinction is between (temporary) "image retention" and (permanent) "burn in". Panels since 2017 are pretty good at getting rid of image retention. Some LCDs (especially IPS) can also get image retention, though from different conditions. Flickering elements will cause image retention on IPS LCDs but not on OLEDs, and vice versa for static elements.

I've seen flickering element burn in on my IPS LCDs but it's always temporary & goes away in a few minutes after I stop sending it the flickering signal. Has anybody reported that it can be permanent?