Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

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neorichieb1971
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by neorichieb1971 »

If I was making a LCD panel via kickstarter I would just build in a scaler that works with multiple inputs like scart/component/svideo and HDMI with at least 8 inputs.

The panel would be 4k, accept all resolutions from 240p to 4k and include all the scanline options. For 4:3 games it would have optional wall paper backgrounds or something like a starfield effect.

That would be better than a native 240p panel that wouldn't work well with higher res games.

It would come with an optional rotating stand mechanism, an optional bar top style enclosure. It would probably come with one of those external Samsung boxes that actually have the inputs on it so you can place it nearer the consoles so cables are not going everywhere.

I think that cuts it. 8)
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pcb_revival
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by pcb_revival »

Not to hijack the thread but this project if enlarged would compliment such a display.

crt style lens on lcd panel.

https://jamhamster.wordpress.com/2020/1 ... om-an-lcd/
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jandrogo
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by jandrogo »

@gravitone sounds nice! What about the response time/lag in those screens? I’ve read you can buy some controller boards for ipad3/4 screens with nearly 0ms response time, and are amazing for tiny gaming setups.... if there’s a control board for those 20” panels with nice specs would be a great option.
Fudoh wrote:that 33" square one sounds extremely tempting. I hardly dare to ask for the price though. Eizo has the 27" version available as a consumer grade monitor at $950.
I’ve checked the 26” 1920x1920 square display and has 14 ms response time and not many resolution modes available, 1920x1440 is not in the list... Maybe the Eizo model if gets cheaper can be a decent option.

I am sure there’s an 4:3 or 1:1 21” or bigger panel with option to attach a control board with great specs.. we only need to put the pieces together
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Fudoh »

The 33" model is 1200 EUR by the way (got an email from a distributor in the Netherlands today).
fernan1234
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by fernan1234 »

That's actually a decent price for what it is. Too bad that at the end of the day it is an LCD with no measures in place to remedy motion blur and persistence blur, which is especially critical for our fast scrolling games.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by gravitone »

jandrogo wrote:@gravitone sounds nice! What about the response time/lag in those screens? I’ve read you can buy some controller boards for ipad3/4 screens with nearly 0ms response time, and are amazing for tiny gaming setups.... if there’s a control board for those 20” panels with nice specs would be a great option.
Fudoh wrote:that 33" square one sounds extremely tempting. I hardly dare to ask for the price though. Eizo has the 27" version available as a consumer grade monitor at $950.
I’ve checked the 26” 1920x1920 square display and has 14 ms response time and not many resolution modes available, 1920x1440 is not in the list... Maybe the Eizo model if gets cheaper can be a decent option.

I am sure there’s an 4:3 or 1:1 21” or bigger panel with option to attach a control board with great specs.. we only need to put the pieces together
Response time is acceptable to me, but probably not for most of the crowd here that wish CRT's were still being produced. Sadly we cannot all buy the 1 available FW-900 for 35,000.
I've spend some time today playing Dodonpachi and Ikaruga on mine in portrait mode, and had a great time.

I haven't looked into controllerboards yet, but I do know that these panels all have a simple single channel 8-bit LVDS interface with a common connector. All we need is simple controller that buffers max. 1 frame, does no processing, and pushes the pixels straight to the display.
Best case scenario, the controller only buffers a line or two. There's plenty of those cheap chinese controller boards around, usually equipped with some realtek controller. There were sellers on aliexpress/ebay where you could provide panel information, and they'd program the appropriate configuration into the onboard flash memory. I'm wondering how configurable these are. As it stands, its kind of a black box situation.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by fernan1234 »

Something that would be really good about a custom controller board for all these otherwise promising LCD panels is that it could allow 60hz single strobing, which would be a huge game changer.
JDH
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by JDH »

The best way to go would be to have a very high resolution screen (4K) but in a 4:3 aspect ratio and with a board that scales the image with a softening yet sharp non-integer scaling to eliminate black bars and shimmer. It would be amazing to have various ‘crt filters’ kind of like how a lot of the new IPS Gameboy screens work with pallets and grid scan lines only recreating popular arcade monitors and BVM/PVM sets. Now all this with a very low input latency would be key and probably another huge challenge. Perhaps a form of black frame insertion with 120hz screen would work to eliminate the shortfalls of LCD?

All that being said I would 100% be in.
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Guspaz
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

I don't really get the modern appeal of the FW-900. You can't drive it on a modern PC because VGA (or rather, analog video) support was dropped a few GPU generations ago and HDMI/DisplayPort-to-VGA adapters don't have nearly enough bandwidth to drive the FW-900 at its full resolution/refresh rates. And for older devices, you don't really need the high resolution/refresh rates of the FW-900.
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NewSchoolBoxer
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

You came to right place to ask. Plenty of people here buying $300+ CRTs, including me, and $50-350 upscalers to play on 4Ks. I think there is a market for a retro video game-friendly LCD television that can handle modern consoles well enough. All in one. Especially if you could market it right.
neorichieb1971 wrote:If I was making a LCD panel via kickstarter I would just build in a scaler that works with multiple inputs like scart/component/svideo and HDMI with at least 8 inputs.
...
The panel would be 4k, accept all resolutions from 240p to 4k and include all the scanline options.
...
It would probably come with one of those external Samsung boxes that actually have the inputs on it so you can place it nearer the consoles so cables are not going everywhere.
What I would suggest. I'm fan of reading about the 720p NEC LCD4000 from 2004 that takes DVI-D for HDMI and has RCA + BNC inputs for all analog signals. RCA and 3.5 mm stereo input, RCA stereo and non-RGB video output to stream without a splitter. Can display 16.77 million colors (2^24) via both the analog and digital signal inputs. Over $4000 then, $150 used today!

If I had to market an LCD to smack down CRT gaming scene, would promote LCD greater color depth and brightness with less flicker and no burn-in risk (unless OLED). Less power usage, no color decline from phosphor wear and tear, can pick up and move and mount on wall! I see on rtings.com that the lowest input lag TVs are 9.2-10.2 ms, compared to ~8.4 ms CRT to fill middle of screen. Market that as imperceptible. Motion blur less than it used to be. Not going to have to deal with maintenance, or at least can come with warranty.
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Osirus
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Osirus »

Something like this would probably take upwards of 8-figures to bring to the market, and you'd likely sell hundreds of them.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

To answer the thread title directly: It is based on a number of business factors. Let me quote an article:
https://news.ihsmarkit.com/prviewer/rel ... markit-say
Factors other than direct material costs, such as production yield, utilization rate, depreciation expenses and substrate size, do actually matter [comparing OLED to LED], IHS Markit said.
Let's say you own a modern factory for panels in the size of your desired large 240p LCD. All other things being equal, it would be a better and safer investment to manufacture panels that will be used in high-demand products like monitors or televisions. Your capacity will end up being partially idle because the production run will be small, so you will have to balance that by charging similar to a normal large volume run - which will end up producing many times more panels which will be desired by many more manufacturers and users. You would also need to spend money creating an entirely new panel design for realizing 240p on current production lines - and this assumes that design would actually be compatible with production processes geared towards very small transistors and other structures. You probably can't look around in the garbage for old mid-'90s LCD production tech, and you wouldn't likely get very good results anyway. Furthermore, the actual signal processing hardware and power circuitry of modern designs are also for high resolution. On the plus side, you could probably incorporate a per-pixel LED backlight a bit more easily because the industry is getting close to moving beyond 240p density in the backlight array alone. But even this would be a custom design if you wanted to get precisely 240p worth of independent lighting zones.

Maybe somebody could DIY a way to create large, low-resolution panels at a very competitive price, but digital signage costs probably are a sign this is easier said than done.

This is a fun thought exercise, of course. This is reminiscent of the old "pixel size vs. quality" debate from digital camera forums, waged because some people misunderstand image quality. A large camera sensor pixel captures much light and can give better results than a small pixel...but this is not the real-world comparison because an image is built up of more than one pixel. Within some limits a whole brigade of smaller pixels allows the capture of more refined data, and this can in turn be used alongside computing to improve image quality. In a similar way, your question, as posed here, falls into the same trap. Not only is there no 240p pixel, or a standard phosphor decay rate, or even a standard aspect ratio to play games in, but throwing away high resolution might even have unforeseen consequences on things like overdrive processing (which in modern displays is geared towards high-DPI monitors and may not work so well at super-low resolutions). I would love for somebody to prove me wrong. In particular, there is still apparently some market for GameBoy / Camcorder-size 240-ish capable screens for backup cameras, although even that is likely soon to go the way of the dodo because of increased resolution demands. But, again, that's not necessarily a bad thing if you've ever paid close attention to what some of the classic handhelds are actually doing to aspect ratio and cropping.
Osirus wrote:Something like this would probably take upwards of 8-figures to bring to the market, and you'd likely sell hundreds of them.
That may be a conservative estimate because you would be competing directly with modern panel demand. There may even be a bit of retooling desired, or at least a learning curve to get the right yields on an exotic low-resolution design.
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Guspaz
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

As you pointed out, it's not even necessarily possible to build a 240p screen without doing some R&D. Those would represent absolutely massive subpixels, much larger than any display ever made. And if nobody has ever made a panel with subpixels that large, what changes are required to drive it? It almost seems more like an LCD segment display with a large number of segments than a traditional LCD panel.

Heck, at that point, you might as well start looking into LED wall modules. You can probably find one at approximately the right size/resolution.
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Lawfer
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Lawfer »

Because it will literally cost a fortune to make for something that only targets a small audience (retro gamers).

The other problem is that even with that you won't even get native resolution across consoles, since games and consoles all used different resolutions, even different resolutions across games from the same consoles.

Handheld games look good on the handheld screen because the screen uses the games native resolutions (480x272 screen for the PSP, 400x240 for the 2DS etc.), remove that and you get an inferior result.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by RocketBelt »

Ironically the screens on the Anbernic (the rg351p at least) are not well suited for gaming. Half an hour at 10% screen brightness and you get image retention.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by ZellSF »

Lawfer wrote:Because it will literally cost a fortune to make for something that only targets a small audience (retro gamers).
It will also only target a very small subset of those. People who aren't happy with CRT or modern display + scalers and want to have a separate display for 240p 1:1 PAR content.

I'm pretty sure the people who want this also have an incorrect imagination of what the end result would actually look like.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by JDH »

ZellSF wrote:
Lawfer wrote:Because it will literally cost a fortune to make for something that only targets a small audience (retro gamers).
It will also only target a very small subset of those. People who aren't happy with CRT or modern display + scalers and want to have a separate display for 240p 1:1 PAR content.

I'm pretty sure the people who want this also have an incorrect imagination of what the end result would actually look like.
I want it but I don’t want a 240p screen. I want a very high resolutions screen that has internal scaling (ability to plug in your component/scart etc) with “emulated” scanlines to give the look and feel of a CRT. Wouldn’t it be awesome to have firmware updates to provide different CRT models scanlines and phosphors.

I know just a pipe dream but I’m sure others share it!
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by BazookaBen »

A high resolution scanning/strobing OLED with simulated scanlines would blow any sample and hold LCD out of the water
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Lawfer
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Lawfer »

JDH wrote:I want it but I don’t want a 240p screen. I want a very high resolutions screen that has internal scaling
Then that would defeat the purpose, even with internal scaling for 240p, how to you think 240p is going to look like on a "very high resolutions screen"? CRT technology was not native-resolution bound, unlike whatever is available today, so whether it was 240p, 480i/p, 720p, 1080i it all looked great, however that is not the case with modern displays.

At best you could get a Dual-Layer LCD that costs 30-35k https://pro.sony/en_AE/products/broadca ... /bvm-hx310, or one of these Sony OLEDs which costs 30-40k... Which will give you a better result than consumer grade displays.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

CRTs have a maximum amount of detail they can resolve, and to some extent, something like a shadow mask sort of has an effective subpixel resolution. A sufficiently high resolution digital display (LCD/OLED/etc) can be considered to be resolution-independent, because once they pass the point where you can discern individual pixels, it's kind of moot. For example, I can't think of any reason why a 27" 8K OLED monitor couldn't perfectly simulate the appearance of a flat CRT... in still photographs, because simulating the raster is a whole other ball of wax.

Of course, with modern gaming monitor pushing to higher and higher framerates (I think they're up to 360Hz now), eventually we'll get to the point where you can fake a CRT raster well enough to fool humans (albeit not scanline-based lightguns). If you have a 1000Hz monitor, for example, you can fake a CRT raster with ~17 levels of fading brightness per scanline, to simulate phosphor decay. I really doubt a human could tell the difference if it was done well enough. Won't make a scanline-based lightgun work, though.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by orange808 »

Guspaz wrote:CRTs have a maximum amount of detail they can resolve, and to some extent, something like a shadow mask sort of has an effective subpixel resolution. A sufficiently high resolution digital display (LCD/OLED/etc) can be considered to be resolution-independent, because once they pass the point where you can discern individual pixels, it's kind of moot. For example, I can't think of any reason why a 27" 8K OLED monitor couldn't perfectly simulate the appearance of a flat CRT... in still photographs, because simulating the raster is a whole other ball of wax.

Of course, with modern gaming monitor pushing to higher and higher framerates (I think they're up to 360Hz now), eventually we'll get to the point where you can fake a CRT raster well enough to fool humans (albeit not scanline-based lightguns). If you have a 1000Hz monitor, for example, you can fake a CRT raster with ~17 levels of fading brightness per scanline, to simulate phosphor decay. I really doubt a human could tell the difference if it was done well enough. Won't make a scanline-based lightgun work, though.
I think it's a question of OLED brightness, if we target 60Hz refresh.

Why does the source need to send a full scanout of complete frames at ridiculously high refresh rates to simulate a 50Hz or 60Hz light gun raster? Most of the frames are going to be black/empty space and redundant information. That's inefficient. Why create a system to refresh the entire screen with new information thousands of times per second, when we aren't handling thousands of frame updates?

OLEDs have almost instant response. It's almost technically feasible to draw and fade individual scanlines right now. The panel can already keep up and we don't need to actually produce, send, and process thousands of frames. The problem is brightness. It will be too dim.

We don't need any more bandwidth on the wire or much more processing speed to handle individually scanning out lines for 50 or 60 fps refresh. We just need OLED panels bright enough to display individual lines.

I don't think the size of the vertically wrapping scanning "rectangle" (of image information) on Sony OLED monitors was limited by processing power. It's height was determined by brightness. It has to be that tall to be useful.
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Guspaz
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

Your approach requires a custom OLED display controller, while my approach just needs a (future) standard high refresh rate OLED display. Considering you can buy LCD monitors at 360Hz today, it's not exactly a distant future proposition.

Brightness is probably good enough for monitor use. I tend to run my LCD panel at 150 nit. LG's OLED panels top out at 776 nit sustained for a 10% window, and since only the most recently drawn block of scanlines would be at something approaching full brightness, a sustained 10% window actually sounds about right. If we assume that the phosphor decay time is around a quarter of the field time (I have no idea what the phosphor decay time actually is, but it can't be that low since I remember my CRT monitors having visible trails behind bright moving objects on dark screens), that's an effective brightness of 194 nit, which should be fine for a room with indoor lighting levels.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by ChrisK1977 »

For my own experiment I just got an RG-350M to compare to my RG-350P and without a doubt, the 350P looks better for NES, SNES, and Genesis games. I would even argue for PS1 games as well (other than the rare 480 PS1 games).

On the 350M, everything looks way blockier and more like an emulator. On the 350P, which is identical to the 350M except it has a 240p screen instead of 640x480 screen like the 350M, everything looks 1:1 pixel perfect. I even asked my wife who doesn't care about this stuff which she thinks looks better (I used Donkey Kong Country as an example) and without hesitation she picked the 350P with its lower-res screen.

It makes me wish these handheld manufacturers weren't so quick to use hi-res screens. Not everyone is looking to emulate Dreamcast and stuff, and the older games "suffer" (in my opinion) as a result.

A handheld with a 320x240 OLED screen that can run Super Mario RPG at 60 fps is pretty much my dream handheld. The GP2X Wiz was close except the processor in that kinda sucked, and there was this tearing in the screen in SNES games.

I really, highly recommend the 350P over the 350M for those exclusively playing PS1 and earlier consoles. The picture quality on it is frankly incredible. It makes games look like the way the artist's drew them, with none of the drawbacks of CRTs.

Also the RG-350P, don't get me wrong, does a great job at Super Mario RPG. It runs most of the game at 60fps as long as you are using the 2017 build of PocketSNES. I also tested a TON of PS1 games and they all run at 60fps. They look so great running at their original resolution in full screen with zero scaling!

Just my two cents.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by fernan1234 »

A tiny screen is generally very forgiving of low resolution content. But it's a tiny screen.

Every time this topic gets bumped and think about it again, the more ill-conceived the idea seems. More pixels to work with is always going to be better so long as you have control of the scaling, and in particular when you have integer scaling options.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

ChrisK1977 wrote:It makes games look like the way the artist's drew them, with none of the drawbacks of CRTs.
It's also squishing it to the incorrect aspect ratio, so it's not the way the artist intended them to be seen. And if you try to run a SNES/NES/etc at the correct aspect ratio on a screen that low resolution, it'll look absolutely terrible.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by nmalinoski »

Guspaz wrote:
ChrisK1977 wrote:It makes games look like the way the artist's drew them, with none of the drawbacks of CRTs.
It's also squishing it to the incorrect aspect ratio, so it's not the way the artist intended them to be seen. And if you try to run a SNES/NES/etc at the correct aspect ratio on a screen that low resolution, it'll look absolutely terrible.
They said on the first page of this thread that they don't give a care about the correct aspect ratio:
ChrisK1977 wrote:Yeah I don't mind SNES games looking slightly "narrow" when they are set to their native mode (I believe 8:7). I will always prefer no-scaling pixel perfect images, even if the moon in Chrono Trigger appears slightly oval.
You're just not going to get a "pixel-perfect" image on an LCD, because the pixels, most often, aren't square; and I'm not aware of any kind of LCD that can vary its horizontal pixel width to accommodate that.

I think the best chance we have, given our current display technologies and without some sort of resurgence of CRTs or some theoretical CRT-alike, is an LCD or OLED with a high-enough resolution that can accommodate integer scaling of all possible video modes from these legacy systems, which would allow for sharp, pseudo-non-square pixels.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by fernan1234 »

nmalinoski wrote:You're just not going to get a "pixel-perfect" image on an LCD, because the pixels, most often, aren't square; and I'm not aware of any kind of LCD that can vary its horizontal pixel width to accommodate that.
Sony's professional monitor lineup (PVM and BVM) since 2007 up to the present all have aspect correction modes for SD signals with non-square pixels, and it works really well. These are the only displays I know of that can do this, but it shows that it can be done on the display side adequately.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

nmalinoski wrote:They said on the first page of this thread that they don't give a care about the correct aspect ratio
Yes, but I was replying to a quote about how "it makes the games look like the way the artists drew them", which is the opposite of not caring about the aspect ratio.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by BenoitRen »

ChrisK1977 wrote:The only other argument I could think of is some might say that a few SNES games are higher res than 240p. However, the only one worth a damn is Secret of Mana and that's only for a small portion of the game (the stats menu that nobody goes into anyway).
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Guspaz wrote:I don't really get the modern appeal of the FW-900.
It's one of the only widescreen CRT monitors that were made, and it's great to hook up to consoles outputting 720p/1080p.
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Re: Why hasn't anyone invented/kickstarted a large 240p LCD?

Post by Guspaz »

Sure, for consoles I bet it'd be great, but I see people pushing it for PC use, when no modern PC can properly drive it due to the limitations of DP-to-VGA adapters.
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