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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:52 am 



Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 9
citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes the lag will be lower in the N64D. UH in direct mode (480p) is pretty low (No idea how many lines buffered) but all other modes will have least a full frame buffered. The N64D will have the same lag in all modes ~20 lines buffered(1-2ms), it has the same clockgen found PS1D that allows this to be possible.

The scaler will also allow for cropping and zooming of the image, we are also playing around with custom resolutions that the user can input.

Most of these questions should prolly be moved to the N64Digital thread, don't want to gum up this thread with non relevant stuff.


Pulling this from the UltraHDMI thread. Thanks so much for the answers, that's really interesting about the lag.

I'm excited about the firmware updates as I love messing around with scanlines and expect there to be ongoing tweaks to features. Some fine-tuning of scanlines would be pretty great.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:59 pm 


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So what are the advantages of using this mod compared to the Tim Worthington RGB through OSSC I'm using? I know that the PS1 digital has seamless 240p/480i switching, will the N64 digital have anything similar?

Also I'm guessing the Tim Worthington board and N64 digital aren't compatible since the N64 digital also outputs RGB analog through the multi out?
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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:05 pm 



Joined: 28 Aug 2020
Posts: 30
I'm certainly not an expert on either project, but the feature roadmap for the n64 digital lists weave de-interlacing as an option (as well as bob deinterlacing), the ossc only does bob deinterlacing afaik. Another potential advantage would be that this offers dual output, so you could use the analog outputs to connect directly to a CRT using rgb or component and send the hdmi output to a capture card or secondary display. You could achieve similar results with an rgb modded n64, ossc, and a gscartsw or matrix switcher, but those are pricy if you just want dual output from n64. There are probably a handful of other things, but I am just reading off the feature roadmap and product page.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:59 pm 


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Location: Indiana
cave hermit wrote:
So what are the advantages of using this mod compared to the Tim Worthington RGB through OSSC I'm using? I know that the PS1 digital has seamless 240p/480i switching, will the N64 digital have anything similar?

Also I'm guessing the Tim Worthington board and N64 digital aren't compatible since the N64 digital also outputs RGB analog through the multi out?



Yes it will have the seamless switching along with the ability for PAL machines to play NTSC games via 60hz and vice versa. To bypass the CIC lock you will need an everdrive.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:20 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1407
How much lag is in the analog RGBS output? I noticed that on your website, 480i was not listed as one of the supported resolutions. Is it not possible to output 480i through the analog AV Multi-Out port?

Also, can you output different resolutions at the same time? For example, can I play Super Mario 64 in analog RGBS 240p through the AV Multiout port, while simultaneously outputting 1080p through the HDMI port for capturing/streaming?

Finally. will this have 15-bit color Mode? I don't see it listed as a feature on the website. Only Deblur.

Thanks Dan :D


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:06 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 503
I’d like to know whether it outputs 240p via HDMI


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:22 am 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 169
citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes it will have the seamless switching along with the ability for PAL machines to play NTSC games via 60hz and vice versa. To bypass the CIC lock you will need an everdrive.


What do you mean by that ?
Is it some kind of overriding the original main clock generator so that NTSC games played on PAL machines will output proper 59.94hz and PAL games played on NTSC machines will output proper 50hz ?


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 pm 


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Location: Indiana
GeneraLight wrote:
How much lag is in the analog RGBS output? I noticed that on your website, 480i was not listed as one of the supported resolutions. Is it not possible to output 480i through the analog AV Multi-Out port?

Also, can you output different resolutions at the same time? For example, can I play Super Mario 64 in analog RGBS 240p through the AV Multiout port, while simultaneously outputting 1080p through the HDMI port for capturing/streaming?

Finally. will this have 15-bit color Mode? I don't see it listed as a feature on the website. Only Deblur.

Thanks Dan :D


The original goal was to have the analog just output the incoming source IE 480i/240p. This will be perfect for streamers that want to play on a CRT but then also output 1080p on the HDMI. The analog will have no lag, compared to the HDMI's ~2ms.

15bit color isn't implemented but could be added.

strayan wrote:
I’d like to know whether it outputs 240p via HDMI


Yes this is no problem. (Not all TVs may like this)

Joelepain wrote:
What do you mean by that ?
Is it some kind of overriding the original main clock generator so that NTSC games played on PAL machines will output proper 59.94hz and PAL games played on NTSC machines will output proper 50hz ?


You will be able to remove the X1 crystal from the N64 mobo and let our kit supply the exact freq. This is optional as some speedrunners will prefer to use the less precise crystal in the N64 :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:21 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes this is no problem. (Not all TVs may like this)


That's great. Do you have plans to port 240p/480i via HDMI to DCDigital and PS1Digital also?


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:24 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes this is no problem. (Not all TVs may like this)


That's great. Do you have plans to port 240p/480i via HDMI to DCDigital and PS1Digital also?


480i is already setup just turn the deinterlacer to passthrough and all 480i content will go through.

Is there a specific use case for 240p and hdmi?


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:28 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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citrus3000psi wrote:
480i is already setup just turn the deinterlacer to passthrough and all 480i content will go through.


Oh good to know!

citrus3000psi wrote:
Is there a specific use case for 240p and hdmi?


A specific use case for HDMI passthrough of both 240p/480i for PS1 and 480i for Dreamcast is for when using the console on a CRT, we can use the same single HDMI cable. In my case I can have the console plugged via HDMI to an HDMI matrix switch with dual output, one output goes to flat panel, the other goes to a DAC connected to my CRT. The HDMI switch also has digital audio extraction to optical, so I can get both perfect digital audio and analog video on my CRT, again all while only using a single HDMI cable for the console, rather than two separate cables.

edit: this would also be beneficial for people who don't own good quality console-specific cables. In fact this makes console-specific cables in general unnecessary for analogue/CRT usage.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:14 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 169
citrus3000psi wrote:
You will be able to remove the X1 crystal from the N64 mobo and let our kit supply the exact freq. This is optional as some speedrunners will prefer to use the less precise crystal in the N64 :wink:


That's a great feature to see !
The only people I know who are offering this mod are the guys from a French site https://www.otakus-store.net/
Great to see an alternative and a two-in-one solution :)


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:54 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
Joelepain wrote:
What do you mean by that ?
Is it some kind of overriding the original main clock generator so that NTSC games played on PAL machines will output proper 59.94hz and PAL games played on NTSC machines will output proper 50hz ?


You will be able to remove the X1 crystal from the N64 mobo and let our kit supply the exact freq. This is optional as some speedrunners will prefer to use the less precise crystal in the N64 :wink:


Wait... I was under the impression that the hardware differences between PAL and NTSC in the n64 were very significant and essentially irreconcilable.

Are you saying that the only thing causing the differences output and run speed between PAL and NTSC is the crystal, and your kit can replace it's function? Effectively turning a PAL console into an NTSC console (bar minor things like regional cart throat etc)? So PAL consoles playing NTSC games as they would on an NTSC console (except for the accuracy difference you mention compared to the crystal). So rather than hunting around for NTSC consoles as I have done, I could just use a PAL console and bypass timing crystal with the N64 digital?


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:09 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 503
Will the smoothing filter on this provide results like the ultrahdmi + mclassic?

This is what the ultrahdmi and mclassic look like for reference:

https://imgur.com/a/YqTli3O


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:19 am 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 169
crumpy wrote:
Wait... I was under the impression that the hardware differences between PAL and NTSC in the n64 were very significant and essentially irreconcilable.

Are you saying that the only thing causing the differences output and run speed between PAL and NTSC is the crystal, and your kit can replace it's function? Effectively turning a PAL console into an NTSC console (bar minor things like regional cart throat etc)? So PAL consoles playing NTSC games as they would on an NTSC console (except for the accuracy difference you mention compared to the crystal). So rather than hunting around for NTSC consoles as I have done, I could just use a PAL console and bypass timing crystal with the N64 digital?


From what I understand from people trying this mod, yes it's just a matter of changing the crystal and lifting the pin of an IC that perfoms clock multiplication/division.
I'm not an expert but the fact that the future N64digital can do it that easily seems to confirm that.

But after that you still have to come around the region locking (throught a passport, or exchanging the PIF IC but that one is an extreme mod) if you don't have a flashcart.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:57 pm 


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strayan wrote:
Will the smoothing filter on this provide results like the ultrahdmi + mclassic?

This is what the ultrahdmi and mclassic look like for reference:

https://imgur.com/a/YqTli3O


I hope the N64Digital can provide results as the mClassic - that would be perfect and makes totally sense to develop.
I have just ordered a mClassic for my UltraHDMI HW1. I would not bet that the N64Digital will be better in picture quality - but in the end, the N64Digital will be the better all-in-one package.

Beside the smoothing feature those two features from firmware v2.0 are so much interesting that i would die for.
To not have a board in hand when this software update will be released is just something i won't to avoid to protect myself ;-)

  • Per game settings via game ID system
  • Tool-assisted speedrun (TAS) support

here are just some comments from my side to this announcement:

  • Game ID - makes so much sense to have a predefined settings for each individual game. The best would be an easy way to apply the most common settings for a specific game - maybe via Wifi..
  • TAS - Thats just mind-blowing - i can just imagine this could be a big hit. Simple game speed changes, loading controller inputs files... possibilities are big

If you combine Game ID with TAS, i get ideas like: On Screen comments for games like Zelda. A specific frame can trigger an OS help - this help files can be exchanges in the community .... hmm.

I don't know if the N64Digital has full control to the controller inputs. My kids first thing when i told them this thing has got wifi they told me "oh, nice.. then you can game with your friend over Internet".. I think, its worth to think about something like this :-) two N64 consoles, that exchange controller, frequeny and Frame ID over the Internet - oh, this both consoles could have a lot fun :-D
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My setup:
N64 Funtastic Smoke Grey #Mod: UltraHDMI HW1 FW1.08
N64 Funtastic Grape Purple #Mod: awaiting N64Digital...
2x original controller wired #Mod:N64 Stick Converter PCB v3
4x Brawler 64 Wireless
Everdrive64 X7


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:34 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1407
Is 4K output possible on the N64Digital, or is the FPGA not powerful enough? This being futureproofed for 4K and having x9 integer scaling from 240p -> 2160p would be pretty nice.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:48 am 


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Does this act as an RGB mod for Analog outputs? If so, how are the white levels on it? Just wondering, because I noticed that other RGB mod on Nintendo 64 resulted in greatly reducing the intensity of the white levels.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:01 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1513
GeneraLight wrote:
Is 4K output possible on the N64Digital, or is the FPGA not powerful enough? This being futureproofed for 4K and having x9 integer scaling from 240p -> 2160p would be pretty nice.


This is currently the holy grail of retro game scaling, and it's not gonna happen any time soon as 4K scaling capable hardware is extremely expensive at this time.

Lawfer wrote:
Does this act as an RGB mod for Analog outputs? If so, how are the white levels on it? Just wondering, because I noticed that other RGB mod on Nintendo 64 resulted in greatly reducing the intensity of the white levels.


It does, but not sure if white levels are correct. I recall that white levels being off was only a problem on the original RGB board by Tim. I have borti's N64Advanced board and I don't think it has this problem, though not 100% sure as I never checked for it. My bet is that the N64Digital won't either.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:30 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I have borti's N64Advanced board and I don't think it has this problem, though not 100% sure as I never checked for it.


I can confirm that they are not, basically they lack the intensity that they should have, it's not a deal breaker, but yeah...


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:35 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Lawfer wrote:
I can confirm that they are not, basically they lack the intensity that they should have, it's not a deal breaker, but yeah...


That's interesting. Has this been verified technically for all available RGB boards?

If it's only been visually noted in comparison to the native composite and S-video, I'm wondering if this may be due to most people keeping their composite or S-video inputs less calibrated, and those also tend to bloom more, so white may appear more intense.

Is there a good game scene or screen to check for this potential white level issue? I can't seem to find a pre-made 240p test suite for the N64.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:48 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Is there a good game scene or screen to check for this potential white level issue? I can't seem to find a pre-made 240p test suite for the N64.


You can pretty much see that something is off with the whites in these situations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pWKgfVBAIs&t=4m49s


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:14 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Lawfer wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Is there a good game scene or screen to check for this potential white level issue? I can't seem to find a pre-made 240p test suite for the N64.


You can pretty much see that something is off with the whites in these situations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pWKgfVBAIs&t=4m49s



5 minutes into that cutscene huh? Maybe I'll do a comparison later, but I did find an unofficial build of the 240p test suite and did a quick check with the white screen and it looks like it is correct, at least on the N64Advanced board. Maybe someone else with this board can verify, but if this one can do white right then so should the Digital.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Maybe someone else with this board can verify


I confirmed it earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:50 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Lawfer wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Maybe someone else with this board can verify


I confirmed it earlier.


Then I wonder if it's cable- or otherwise setup-dependent, but on my end I've "confirmed" the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:26 pm 



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 80
Whites through Tim's RGB board 2.0 with the deblur on and through the OSSC definitely seemed plenty bright to me - I had seen the blurry white examples in screenshots before this thread but I definitely wasn't getting that myself.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Then I wonder if it's cable- or otherwise setup-dependent, but on my end I've "confirmed" the opposite.


The whites are washed out, they look a little too dim and greyish, it reminds me how to whites look like when playing Okami on PS2 for example (only happens with this game on PS2, every other game has normal white level brightness), everytime you switch areas the screen becomes full white, however the whites levels lack the intensity found in every other game and are a little too dim.

For cables, I use Retro Access BNC Cable for Nintendo 64 RGB Mod plugged directly on my broadcast monitor, it's pretty much the same Retro Access BNC cables and same monitor that I use for my other consoles which have normal white level brightness.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:35 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
For cables, I use Retro Access BNC Cable for Nintendo 64 RGB Mod plugged directly on my broadcast monitor, it's pretty much the same Retro Access BNC cables and same monitor that I use for my other consoles which have normal white level brightness.


That's a similar setup to mine (except I use DE15 instead of BNC). Do you know that your BNC cables do not have any resistors on them? I know mine don't. Back when whites/colors appearing duller via RGB for some people were being discussed, Borti mentioned this:

Quote:
White is white - all bits in the digital color vectors are set to one here. In the digital way there is no way to further 'boost' them.

What you can try to do with viletims board:
If you have caps inside your RGB cable, just remove them. They are not needed and may reduce the contrast a bit.

Also, you have R49, R50 and R51 on viletims board. These are 270 ohm resistors, which are unfortunately not labeled but luckely the only 270ohm ones.

These resistors together with the R2R ladder gives a Upp of 0.696V, which is below standard (0.714V in US) but normally close enough.
You can replace them with 280ohm resistors which gives you 0.716V.
If you want to overshoot the standard a bit more to saturate earlier, you may also want to use 290ohm or 300ohm resistors (giving you Upp=0.756V)


You can find further discussion in this topic starting from page 30 especially: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56988&start=870

Doing a quick search for "white" you'll find a bunch of references to it, with someone being able to match their N64 RGB white to other consoles as well as S-video after calibrating the monitor, while others being unable to do so. In my case I double checked by comparing the white screen of the 240p test suite on the N64, Megadrive/Genesis, and even a 1Chip SFC. I didn't measure anything with an osciloscope or probe so nothing scientific, but to my eye the N64 whites look as intense. I also dug out an S-video cable and compared it and white is the same, not dull or grayish whatsoever.

Another potential factor to consider besides resistors on the cable, or something else on the chain, are the settings on the N64 Advanced board. My settings for reference:

Output format: RGBS/RGsB
240p-DeBlur: Always
15bit mode: Off
Gamma Value: 1.0
Linedoubling off, no filter bypass

So pretty confident the N64Advanced board doesn't have the problem you mentioned inherently, but it would be good if someone else besides us two can share experience with it.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:02 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Do you know that your BNC cables do not have any resistors on them?


Frankly I don't remember it's been a few years since I got these cables, I think the cables were CSYNC and TTL (Passthough). But I am not even sure.

For the settings, mine are pretty much similar to yours from what I remember, RGB, deblur on, no linedoubling etc.


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 Post subject: Re: N64Digital
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 2:23 pm 



Joined: 06 Mar 2021
Posts: 27
Pre-orders go live 10AM ET tomorrow May 7. I am ready.


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