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 Post subject: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:11 am 



Joined: 18 Apr 2015
Posts: 20
So recently been fancying the idea of grabbing a pc engine and a flash cart just to finally check out some of the games on the system.

As I usually play on a pvm I wondered what people's opinions were in relation to getting rgb out of the console. Ideally I'm looking for a plug and play solution and thought someone here might have some experience or suggestions?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:23 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2020
Posts: 41
I know it's almost a meme at this point but I think MiSTer is the best way to play PC Engine today.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:43 pm 



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 117
Location: Tokyo
I have an adapter from Japan that outputs RGBS over RCA, similar to this one (same seller but mine is a much older revision without the Genesis 2 output): https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f457352125
Don't use it too often though, as its brightness can fluctuate a bit. Should probably get around to measuring the output voltages one of these days...


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:49 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
daty2k1 wrote:
I know it's almost a meme at this point but I think MiSTer is the best way to play PC Engine today.


100% this. The reasons have been mentioned several times in other topics, but meme or not this is the case since around the middle of last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:09 pm 



Joined: 18 Apr 2015
Posts: 20
Sick, so basically yet another reason to get a mister for the recent ddp release as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:35 pm 


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Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 2279
fernan1234 wrote:
daty2k1 wrote:
I know it's almost a meme at this point but I think MiSTer is the best way to play PC Engine today.


100% this. The reasons have been mentioned several times in other topics, but meme or not this is the case since around the middle of last year.


Yes, seems that way, only way so far if you want to get RGB quality picture quality with accurate colors, Voultar posted a comparison picture of RGB vs S-Video, while S-Video has accurate color like Composite, it is nowhere near the picture quality of RGB.

https://i.imgur.com/MhvDhiv.jpg

Voultar mentioned a component mod which would give a picture quality as good as RGB while having accurate colors, but a component mod is not possible due to lack of bandwidth, so S-Video mod is the only possible best option to retain original colors, but as you can see from the comparison screenshot S-Video can not compare to RGB. So yes MiSTer FPGA is the best if you want the best picture quality with accurate colors.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:43 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
Lawfer wrote:
Yes, seems that way, only way so far if you want to get RGB quality picture quality with accurate colors, Voultar posted a comparison picture of RGB vs S-Video, while S-Video has accurate color like Composite, it is nowhere near the picture quality of RGB.

https://i.imgur.com/MhvDhiv.jpg


The digital capture here is not doing much favors to either signal. I can imagine that on a CRT the difference would not be so big, and there could even be an argument for the S-video colors getting closer to the "real" ones. I can see many being happy with S-video quality. I'd be fine with it too, were if not for the fact that PCE hardware is such a gigantic pain to deal with, and expensive, especially for the CD library. Don't see any breakthrough in PCE hardware any time soon, so it's gonna be MiSTer long term for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:52 pm 


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Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 2279
Either way, you can see that the S-Video picture quality is alot blurrier than the RGB one, maybe on a CRT it might have more parity, but RGB is clearly the winner here and hence it will not be able to compete with a MiSTer FPGA with RGB output either through HDMI or Analog.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:23 am 


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Joined: 21 Jun 2019
Posts: 115
Location: Atlanta, GA
jd213 wrote:
I have an adapter from Japan that outputs RGBS over RCA, similar to this one (same seller but mine is a much older revision without the Genesis 2 output): https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f457352125
Don't use it too often though, as its brightness can fluctuate a bit. Should probably get around to measuring the output voltages one of these days...


That RGBS over RCA adapter is cool as hell and only $28.50 before proxy bidding + overseas shipping costs. Brightness fluctuation though. I wish we had more VGA and RCA or BNC from console products to bypass SCART + JP21 cartel prices and ride the mass produced cheap switchers and splitters train.

So long as you have real console, I would accept lower quality video over MiSTer to be more authentic, any emulation errors aside. Why I dislike SNES emulation. Digital RGB not how I remember. Maybe I'm in the minority.

I'd try CRT EmuDriver if you have PC for cost of cheap obsolete graphics card before ponying up MiSTer money. Not sure how PCE core compares to software emulators. Other possibility I never see mentioned is the old Dell Inspiron laptops with S-Video output.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:37 am 


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Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 718
Location: Massachusetts, USA
https://www.retrotekshop.com/products?pn=TG16AVAMP

This looks like it could be promising, but I have zero experience with these so do not take my word as gospel :)
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For CRTs, A/V gear, video games & more, be sure to check out my eBay!

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:10 am 


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Joined: 31 Jul 2017
Posts: 250
Lawfer wrote:
Either way, you can see that the S-Video picture quality is alot blurrier than the RGB one, maybe on a CRT it might have more parity, but RGB is clearly the winner here and hence it will not be able to compete with a MiSTer FPGA with RGB output either through HDMI or Analog.


That image honestly looks more like a comparison between composite and s-video to me, there's no way a properly split chroma/luma signal looks that blurry.

In my opinion, the composite image that comes out of the CD docks or the Turbobooster is still quite good on a CRT, especially one with a high dot pitch. Probably the sharpest and cleanest composite I've ever seen out of an 80s game console, NEC knew what they were doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:34 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
Bratwurst wrote:
In my opinion, the composite image that comes out of the CD docks or the Turbobooster is still quite good on a CRT, especially one with a high dot pitch. Probably the sharpest and cleanest composite I've ever seen out of an 80s game console, NEC knew what they were doing.


True. If you're a hardcore purist, that's actually the only way to go. I'd be perfectly content with a Duo and its composite output if they were not so expensive to acquire and force into good working shape.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:19 am 


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Joined: 21 Jun 2019
Posts: 115
Location: Atlanta, GA
Lawfer wrote:
Voultar mentioned a component mod which would give a picture quality as good as RGB while having accurate colors, but a component mod is not possible due to lack of bandwidth,


I must be missing the context because component doesn't look as good as RGB in my PS2 tests and in every YouTube comparison I know of. It's close though.

daty2k1 wrote:
I know it's almost a meme at this point but I think MiSTer is the best way to play PC Engine today.


Sorry I'm new here. Has someone done an emulator accuracy test of MiSTer core versus software emulators? I've seen a testing spreadsheet for Game Boy. I think MiSTer is great if you want to spend that kind of money over $35 Pi or ATI graphics card + CRT Emudriver, if you already own a PC.

That's cool there is both the Turbobooster and TG16AVAMP. TG16AVAMP gives the 23V/µs audio slew rate but not the video slew rate for the 2.69% of people who would want to see it. RGB is defined to be 0.7Vp-p and it amps to 1.4Vp-p. That is +6 dB when PVMs only list +3 dB tolerance so are you not risking over volting a CRT? I like the Csync / HV sync switch though. As a comparison, the Voultar SNES 1CHIP/Mini RGB Bypass uses THS7374 amp to boost to standard 0.7Vp-p and THS7374 has video slew of 130V/µs with low pass filter off.

But yeah, I'm a hardcore purist too. I just can't pay Duo + Rondo of Blood + Cotton money.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:58 pm 


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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 1279
Easy. Just get SSDS3, plug and play to get RGB out and your done. Bit pricey, but looks and sounds fantastic, plays all regions and CD games too. I have one and its fantastic.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:38 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
I must be missing the context because component doesn't look as good as RGB in my PS2 tests and in every YouTube comparison I know of. It's close though.


There is a school of thought in the analogue world according to which YPbPr is identical in quality to RGB and can look identical with the appropriate calibration. In practice I find this hard to realize though, and RGB is always the preferable choice when available (as it is for the PS2).

Josh128 wrote:
Easy. Just get SSDS3, plug and play to get RGB out and your done. Bit pricey, but looks and sounds fantastic, plays all regions and CD games too. I have one and its fantastic.


Ugh, after 4 years and I still get triggered by the S-word. First of all, most of the popular SD cards like Sandisk will give you tons of read access noise while playing CD games. This applies to all revisions. Second, it plays all CD games, but some still have known glitches. And finally you only get raw RGB colors, which for years we thought were cool and vivid but know we know better.

The MiSTer core is extremely accurate (see the github history last year for the fascinating process of getting it to be virtually perfect), for CD games it behaves like an ideal perfect CD-ROM, and gives you the option to see the original colors, or stick to the raw ones if you're too used to them now. You can adjust the audio balance levels to match whatever console variant you're used to, and it can be clean digital audio paired with analogue video for a CRT. It's by far the better choice today and for the foreseeable future. It alone makes it worth the investment, even ignoring the many other amazing cores on the platform. Just sell your PCE gear to finance it if needed. A Supergrafx alone would be more than a fully stacked MiSTer setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:35 pm 


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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 1279
I get where youre coming from but my bro, I game on a giant 36" Trin and the Terraonion add-on hardware looks and sounds impeccable to me. I havent had an issue with it that wasnt easily fixable in the option menu and the SD card read sounds during CD games is way overblown as I havent noticed anything while playing.

Its fucking expensive, I'll give you that. This guy asked for plug and play PC engine on a PVM, not a completely separate setup. Plug and play PC Engine is exactly what the SSDS3 is.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:09 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
I can grant the last point, while also adding that the MiSTer can be equally as plug and play. Just like you need to load files onto an SD card for an SSDS3, that's really all you need to do with the MiSTer, since technically you have the option to get someone to send you a pre-imaged and configured SD card (though honestly doing so yourself has never been easier, it's literally less effort than setting up a Pi image now).

Plug in a PCE USB pad, or an original pad with an adapter, turn on fast USB polling, and you literally will forget you're not playing on a real PCE. And the experience will be superior to the SSDS3 or any other real hardware solution across the board, no compromises.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to pc engine on a pvm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:56 am 



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 117
Location: Tokyo
jd213 wrote:
I have an adapter from Japan that outputs RGBS over RCA, similar to this one (same seller but mine is a much older revision without the Genesis 2 output): https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f457352125
Don't use it too often though, as its brightness can fluctuate a bit. Should probably get around to measuring the output voltages one of these days...


Had an excuse to get out my scope, and it looks like the RGB lines are about 0.68Vpp each, while the composite output is about 1Vpp. So within spec for a PVM, but maybe I'll try adding a resistor to a composite cable and see if it helps with the brightness.


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