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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
It is... FINAL! :D


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:05 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
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Location: Germany
:| Bummer. Is there any chance that this might get a revision in the distant future? I know your stance on "SHART" connectors, but I think the community would greatly appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:33 am 


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Many scart headers can be installed the other way around, so you could build yourself a 20cm extension cable that basically swaps the direction of the cable coming from the header enclosure.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:57 am 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
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Location: France
Thanks Mike for your answer.

Any specific reason for this choice of design ? I can imagine a new revision would implies redoing the whole pcb.

Also you said that you abandoned the smoothing feature for the 5x Pro. Any plans for adding it in the future ? Or for the 9x Pro ? Or even better, create a mClassic-like product, but actually better ? (like for 4K, would be awesome for 240p 3D/480p/720p content)

@Fudoh: Yeah you can change headers on some scarts but in most of them the wiring length is optimized for the standard positioning. Also this in not very "consumer" friendly and not ideal when a product is design to be plug&play.

(sorry for bad english).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:10 pm 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 155
Location: Germany
Fudoh wrote:
you could build yourself a 20cm extension cable that basically swaps the direction of the cable coming from the header enclosure.


This is true, but if there's anything that a SCART connection does not need, it's more SCART connectors in the chain :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:51 pm 


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SuperSpongo wrote:
This is true, but if there's anything that a SCART connection does not need, it's more SCART connectors in the chain :lol:


I wonder if it would be possible to physically flip the SHART around inside the housing? I haven't messed with one in awhile, and I assume they are keyed in some way, but you might be able to physically modify the housing by cutting the plastic in order to get the actual connector to be right angle instead of left angle.

You'd only have to make one of them and keep it with the tink.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:02 pm 


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I would suspect that the majority of "heavy" scart users are using a switch in the setup anyway, so it would just be about replacing or modding that one connecting scart cable.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:22 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1316
Stashing the whole thing out of view behind your TV, stand, etc., is another solution.

Hopefully though eventually there will be a FW update that adds support for RGsB via the RCA connectors. I'd much rather have an Extron RGB interface in the chain for sync on green while avoiding anything SHART.

The 5X case looks really nice! Looks like it's an all opaque finish and not a slightly translucent black like on the 2X-M.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:54 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 674
So Mike, the rt5x will not have an HDMI input for signal processing, correct? I'm sure this was explained pages back, but trying to gauge the difference between it and the OSSC Pro. We need someone much more aware of the differences to post a chart.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:34 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 174
zarkFR wrote:
Can you tell us if the photo on your twitter header is the final release ? The SCART connector seems mounted in the wrong direction (cable will go in front of the 5x in most setups).

Image

Having that SCART connector going the wrong direction is going to, sadly, be a Big Deal for a lot of users and probably a deal breaker...


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:07 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
zarkFR wrote:
Can you tell us if the photo on your twitter header is the final release ? The SCART connector seems mounted in the wrong direction (cable will go in front of the 5x in most setups).

Image

Having that SCART connector going the wrong direction is going to, sadly, be a Big Deal for a lot of users and probably a deal breaker...


Lmao. Get out the pitchforks.


Last edited by mikechi2 on Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:13 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
zarkFR wrote:
Thanks Mike for your answer.

Any specific reason for this choice of design ? I can imagine a new revision would implies redoing the whole pcb.

Also you said that you abandoned the smoothing feature for the 5x Pro. Any plans for adding it in the future ? Or for the 9x Pro ? Or even better, create a mClassic-like product, but actually better ? (like for 4K, would be awesome for 240p 3D/480p/720p content)

@Fudoh: Yeah you can change headers on some scarts but in most of them the wiring length is optimized for the standard positioning. Also this in not very "consumer" friendly and not ideal when a product is design to be plug&play.

(sorry for bad english).


The smoothing stuff was a video chip of the old old RetroTINKs. In theory the FPGA can do the same (or better), but that's a completely custom solution.

While I could mock the SHART connector and say something snarky like I only use it with the composite to SCART plug, that'd be acting like a tool. The truth is that it was added late into the development. Shocking, but the original vision was for a component oriented device. It simply wasn't worth reverifying the power distribution as well as signal integrity of the analog/high speed digital sections, so the connector was added on the side of the board where the analog circuitry already lived.

As an side, part of my resentment towards SHART is that 90% of the analog video problems were related to poorly implemented/lack of standardization among the cables.

As Fudoh and others point out there are solutions if needed -- and this decision was made observing the fact that cables are capable of bending back around relatively easily, as well as switch users can opt for a straight SCART-to-SCART cable (like I use with my gswitch)


Last edited by mikechi2 on Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:14 pm 


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If you ever do try a "pro" high end machine, I would prefer BNC connections for each individual line on the back. (Although, I don't think there would be enough market to bother with it.) Probably not worth your time, though. :-(

The SCART is good for plugging in one console and playing. Seems like a good design to me.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:16 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
orange808 wrote:
If you ever do try a "pro" high end machine, I would prefer BNC connections for each individual line on the back. (Although, I don't think there would be enough market to bother with it.) Probably not worth your time, though. :-(

The SCART is good for plugging in one console and playing. Seems like a good design to me.


Yeah I would LOVE a BNC connector, although something on my radar is making DB-15 viable since it is much smaller and good quality DB-15 to BNC 75 ohm coax is still easy to get off the shelf :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:21 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
ldeveraux wrote:
So Mike, the rt5x will not have an HDMI input for signal processing, correct? I'm sure this was explained pages back, but trying to gauge the difference between it and the OSSC Pro. We need someone much more aware of the differences to post a chart.


No HDMI support as that would require a more powerful and costly FPGA plus DDR2/3 SDRAM architecture. PixelFx did tease something a few weeks ago that looked like a scaler with a beefier FPGA and HDMI receiver. From their N64Digital tweets, I'm sure it'll also have a full polyphase scaler, smoothing filters, etc, etc.

The goal for the RT5X (and really all my stuff) is really geared towards the analog era, and the RT5X takes us all the way to the final 480i/480p generation pre-HDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:33 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
fernan1234 wrote:
Stashing the whole thing out of view behind your TV, stand, etc., is another solution.

Hopefully though eventually there will be a FW update that adds support for RGsB via the RCA connectors. I'd much rather have an Extron RGB interface in the chain for sync on green while avoiding anything SHART.

The 5X case looks really nice! Looks like it's an all opaque finish and not a slightly translucent black like on the 2X-M.


Thanks man!! In theory, RGsB over the RCA can be turned out with a firmware change, but a bigger challenge is that the video processing pipeline is YCbCr. Moving around and processing luma data only for things like the motion adaptive deinterlacer is much more efficient than trying to do it in RGB. But I guess adding a colorspace matrix to convert RGB -> YCbCr on the FPGA is not too terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:51 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
If you ever do try a "pro" high end machine, I would prefer BNC connections for each individual line on the back. (Although, I don't think there would be enough market to bother with it.) Probably not worth your time, though. :-(

The SCART is good for plugging in one console and playing. Seems like a good design to me.


Yeah I would LOVE a BNC connector, although something on my radar is making DB-15 viable since it is much smaller and good quality DB-15 to BNC 75 ohm coax is still easy to get off the shelf :)

This pleases the Victorious God of Analogue


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:52 pm 



Joined: 24 Jun 2015
Posts: 197
Location: Florida
mikechi2 wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
So Mike, the rt5x will not have an HDMI input for signal processing, correct? I'm sure this was explained pages back, but trying to gauge the difference between it and the OSSC Pro. We need someone much more aware of the differences to post a chart.


No HDMI support as that would require a more powerful and costly FPGA plus DDR2/3 SDRAM architecture. PixelFx did tease something a few weeks ago that looked like a scaler with a beefier FPGA and HDMI receiver. From their N64Digital tweets, I'm sure it'll also have a full polyphase scaler, smoothing filters, etc, etc.

The goal for the RT5X (and really all my stuff) is really geared towards the analog era, and the RT5X takes us all the way to the final 480i/480p generation pre-HDMI.

To follow up on this/confirm a few things. The PixelFX Scaler has an HDMI input to allow for upscaling/downscaling/re-scaling of things like DCHDMI, the Consolizer, and other first gen HDMI products that might benefit (OSSC, GCVideo). Our polyphase scaler implementation has several nice performance improving tweaks that more typical implementations (Mister, Analogue, Intel/Xilinx IP cores) lack. We also have a couple of good in-house edge-tracking smoothing filters. In addition to HDMI input, we also have a high quality analog front end to handle all the popular older formats such as composite, s-video, VGA, scart, and component. Overall our goal is to improve upon the shortcomings of the Framemeister, while adding some nice modern touches like wifi updates.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1316
maxtherabbit wrote:
This pleases the Victorious God of Analogue


It's great to see Mike being consistently a man of Vision :D

Really cool to hear about potential RGsB via RCA support and even DB-15 down the road, even if it's something that will yield to higher priority stuff in the meantime.


Woozle wrote:
To follow up on this/confirm a few things. The PixelFX Scaler has an HDMI input to allow for upscaling/downscaling/re-scaling of things like DCHDMI, the Consolizer, and other first gen HDMI products that might benefit (OSSC, GCVideo). Our polyphase scaler implementation has several nice performance improving tweaks that more typical implementations (Mister, Analogue, Intel/Xilinx IP cores) lack. We also have a couple of good in-house edge-tracking smoothing filters. In addition to HDMI input, we also have a high quality analog front end to handle all the popular older formats such as composite, s-video, VGA, scart, and component. Overall our goal is to improve upon the shortcomings of the Framemeister, while adding some nice modern touches like wifi updates.


All sounds great. Will be lots of fun playing around with both of these devices.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:18 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
the original vision was for a component oriented device

mikechi2 wrote:
As an side, part of my resentment towards SHART is that 90% of the analog video problems were related to poorly implemented/lack of standardization among the cables.


Hypothetically, if this were still a component oriented device. Would using a poorly made SCART cable though a RGB2COMP have solved the mentioned analog signal problems? Or, was the thought that it's easier to reply with "Get an HDRV cable"?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
DirkSwizzler wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
the original vision was for a component oriented device

mikechi2 wrote:
As an side, part of my resentment towards SHART is that 90% of the analog video problems were related to poorly implemented/lack of standardization among the cables.


Hypothetically, if this were still a component oriented device. Would using a poorly made SCART cable though a RGB2COMP have solved the mentioned analog signal problems? Or, was the thought that it's easier to reply with "Get an HDRV cable"?


Yeah, garbage in garbage out. A $5 Alibaba SCART cable is going to produce garbage component output from a RGB2COMP. One of the premium SCART cables thru the RGB2COMP will work fine, but at that point you might as well as just get an HDRV cable if you're starting from scratch and don't have existing SCART stuff to support. The HDRV cables have always "just worked" for me. And to be upfront: this isn't to hate on the SCART manufacturers but really due the standardization of sync styles with analog YPbPr vs RGBs SCART.

This is getting off-topic but my dream cable:

1. Individually shielded (or better 75 ohm coax) for R,G,B and composite video on pin 21 for sync
2. Built in low-pass filter/amplifier with some video level normalization
3. Restoration of DC video levels and DC coupled drivers
4. Placement of source termination near the console for systems like the Genesis that didn't want to spend the $0.0001/unit to put it on the motherboard.

Then I have nothing to whine about.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:59 am 


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mikechi2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
If you ever do try a "pro" high end machine, I would prefer BNC connections for each individual line on the back. (Although, I don't think there would be enough market to bother with it.) Probably not worth your time, though. :-(

The SCART is good for plugging in one console and playing. Seems like a good design to me.


Yeah I would LOVE a BNC connector, although something on my radar is making DB-15 viable since it is much smaller and good quality DB-15 to BNC 75 ohm coax is still easy to get off the shelf :)


Yes x1000000. :D

DE-15 is basically the ideal connector for RGB video. It's compact, high quality, cheap, readily available and easy to solder to. Pretty much anyone can walk into any thrift store and buy a used VGA cable.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:17 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
vol.2 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
If you ever do try a "pro" high end machine, I would prefer BNC connections for each individual line on the back. (Although, I don't think there would be enough market to bother with it.) Probably not worth your time, though. :-(

The SCART is good for plugging in one console and playing. Seems like a good design to me.


Yeah I would LOVE a BNC connector, although something on my radar is making DB-15 viable since it is much smaller and good quality DB-15 to BNC 75 ohm coax is still easy to get off the shelf :)


Yes x1000000. :D

DE-15 is basically the ideal connector for RGB video. It's compact, high quality, cheap, readily available and easy to solder to. Pretty much anyone can walk into any thrift store and buy a used VGA cable.


:)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:51 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 155
Location: Germany
FYI: A User on another forum just found this cable:

https://www.mediamarkt.de/de/product/_h ... 08128.html

https://www.hama.com/00123212/hama-scar ... oldet-30-m

It doesn't even mention in the description that it is a flipped plug.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:19 am 


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That Scart plug annoys me, but I'll still buy one. LOL! I'd imagine all of the major Scart players will make flipped heads for this anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:57 am 


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Case looks fantastic. I look at it and just imagine RETRO(RED)TINK(GREEN)5X(BLUE) lettering. I might break out some Testors high gloss model paint and make it so when I get one, lol.

I hate to agree, as it seems so petty, but the SHART connector position is an annoyance. But hey, that ship has sailed if its already in production. Maybe in a future hardware production run? If not, its still a minor issue. Appreciate the work and enthusiasm. :D


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:40 pm 


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Quote:
Having that SCART connector going the wrong direction is going to, sadly, be a Big Deal for a lot of users and probably a deal breaker...


If this is really that big a deal for people I could get some SCART to SCART cables made in the same quality as our JP21 adapters?

We'd need to order min quantity 500 though, so there would have to be significant interest.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
Thanks a lot everyone for your support and understanding. Damn, if reverse SCART cables get made just because of this debacle, I will eat my words and never make fun of SCART again. Like I said though, I hope in the coming year (?), I'll have some progress on some DB-15 and other stuff :)

BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
Having that SCART connector going the wrong direction is going to, sadly, be a Big Deal for a lot of users and probably a deal breaker...


If this is really that big a deal for people I could get some SCART to SCART cables made in the same quality as our JP21 adapters?

We'd need to order min quantity 500 though, so there would have to be significant interest.


Thanks a lot Matt. If you go down that route, I'd be more than happy to share the costs. I'd say everyone take a look first -- bending the cable back is really not that bad, lmao, and for heavy SCART switch users, there's a flat M-M SCART (and honestly why it never triggered me since that's what I use with my gswitch).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:10 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Thanks a lot everyone for your support and understanding. Damn, if reverse SCART cables get made just because of this debacle, I will eat my words and never make fun of SCART again. Like I said though, I hope in the coming year (?), I'll have some progress on some DB-15 and other stuff :)


I'm sorry for putting you on the spot, here.

Would it be possible to add support for TTL RGBHV input to the current design with a special custom firmware using a custom HD-15 (aka DE-15/DB-15/"VGA") to SCART cable (and a nonstandard SCART pinout)? That would be a good compromise. (I'm almost positive that's impossible, but I'll ask anyhow.)
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:21 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Thanks a lot everyone for your support and understanding. Damn, if reverse SCART cables get made just because of this debacle, I will eat my words and never make fun of SCART again. Like I said though, I hope in the coming year (?), I'll have some progress on some DB-15 and other stuff :)


I'm sorry for putting you on the spot, here.

Would it be possible to add support for TTL RGBHV input to the current design with a special custom firmware using a custom HD-15 (aka DE-15/DB-15/"VGA") to SCART cable (and a nonstandard SCART pinout)? That would be a good compromise. (I'm almost positive that's impossible, but I'll ask anyhow.)


Not at all. The main thing is that the TTL HV needs to be converted to 1V 75 ohm CSYNC, which isn't possible to do in firmware. If the converter had it's own sync combiner, it should actually be plug and play.


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