RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Hey no worries, Ive also read similar info on Reddit. There may be sets out there from different manufacturers that do vary input lag from analog to digital for all I know. What I do know is that this HS-420 doesnt! :D
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BazookaBen
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by BazookaBen »

This is great news! Almost makes me want to find another HS or SFP set.

Question about the 480i mode though, is it line doubled to 960i inside of 1080i, or is it deinterlaced into 480 inside of 540p? I think 960i should look better.

As far as being able to stretch the raster enough, I don't know how the buffer works on the retrotink, but if you could decrease the size of front and back porches, you would have an easier time getting the raster to reach the edges of the screen
incrediblehark wrote:You'll notice in these photos I do not have scanlines enabled. The reason is that when enabled, I got extreme flickering/strobing effect which made the scanlines unusable. This did not occur when set to 480p mode, however. I got nice scanlines with no flicker and a full screen, perfectly scaled image in 480p. Not sure why this was the case with my set and not Josh's, I'm wondering if it is actually outputting as 1080i as it states in the service menu?
I actually remember seeing in the scanline'd sections of Axiom Verge when I played it on my 30HS420. I never thought about it much beyond that because I didn't use that tube for emulation.

But, is there something like a "v-hold" setting in the service menu? Making minor adjustments to that should change where the scanlines land, and could possible give you proper "double strike" 540p. I don't know how that would effect the picture when a 1080i signal is sent though.
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vol.2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

^^^^^

AFAIK, that mode doesn't exist yet. It's been requested, but I think it's just on a big list of possible future things. What's been asked for is line-doubled 480i to 960i inside of a 1080i frame. (or at least that what I and perhaps Josh were asking for).
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

BazookaBen wrote:This is great news! Almost makes me want to find another HS or SFP set.

Question about the 480i mode though, is it line doubled to 960i inside of 1080i, or is it deinterlaced into 480 inside of 540p? I think 960i should look better.

As far as being able to stretch the raster enough, I don't know how the buffer works on the retrotink, but if you could decrease the size of front and back porches, you would have an easier time getting the raster to reach the edges of the screen
When you set the 5X to 540p, the input resolution doesnt matter, the set always gets 540p. As far as what happens with different input resolutions, they basically look exactly like they would natively, even 480i (when using "bob" deinterlacing). Bob deinterlacing retains the "flicker" look that you get on an SDTV with a 480i source. So its essentially still shifting the 480i image up and down in the 540p frame if thats what you are asking. Because you are stretching the raster, it should look identical to 480i doubled to 960i.

As far as stretching the image, as Mike has said, you dont want to do it with the 5X. You want to integer scale into the 540p frame and then adjust the raster on the TV. This is the only way to get perfectly even scanlines with no shimmer or distortion when scrolling vertically or horizontally, and that is how this mode currently works. Additionally, do note that I had plenty enough room in the svc menu to stretch the raster vertically and horizontally, no problems there.

As far as the 960i resolution, there should be no need for it for these sets. The 540p mode + SVC menu can do whatever you need with 240p, 480i, and 480p. Its perfect.
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BazookaBen
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by BazookaBen »

Oh ok, if bob-deinterlacing already looks in effect the same as 960i, then yeah, no need to send an interlaced signal.

With stretrching, I thought I read someone was having issues bring it to the edge of the screen, but hopefully everybody gets that worked out. Though on the horizontal axis, I think you technically could reduce the size of the porches, depending on how the line/frame buffer works. Reducing vertical porches would require using the full frame buffer I guess, and if you reduce them too much, you'd leave that 33 kHz window for zero lag.

Sorry if you guys already talked about it and I missed it
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

It does. I may try to post a video showing 480i and how it looks later so you can see. Also, the 960i mode of this TV features some strange vertical compression/banding and also doesnt fall within the 33.75 KHz HDPT range either, so its definitely a no go anyway, IMO.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Why would you want to simulate 480i on the display, instead of using motion-adaptive deinterlacing to get proper 480p output on the TV using the 540p mode?
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BazookaBen
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by BazookaBen »

Josh128 wrote:Also, the 960i mode of this TV features some strange vertical compression/banding and also doesnt fall within the 33.75 KHz HDPT range either, so its definitely a no go anyway, IMO.

Oh, by 960i I meant 1080i with Retrotink, just "effectively" 960i since the rest would be overscanned.

Sending an actual 960i signal gets intepreted as 480p I'm pretty sure, and gets all kinds of fucked up. Unlike feeding a direct 480i signal and using the "interlace" DRC mode to effectively show 960i, which looks halfway decent in my memory, but has the ridiculous amount of lag.

And no need to get pictures, I understand what you're describing. And I imagine it would be really hard to get pictures that accurately convey what it looks like in person

Guspaz wrote:Why would you want to simulate 480i on the display, instead of using motion-adaptive deinterlacing to get proper 480p output on the TV using the 540p mode?
I'm a purist and typically don't want software "guessing" about how to alter the image. I'd rather just have the raw lines, for all their faults.

But then again, I guess it would be similar to what VR setups do for head movement when outputting 60fps content on a 120hz headset? That actually looks pretty good on my PSVR
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vol.2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Guspaz wrote:Why would you want to simulate 480i on the display, instead of using motion-adaptive deinterlacing to get proper 480p output on the TV using the 540p mode?
I don't want to play Final Fantasy XII deinterlaced. I think that would be weird. I'm so used to games like that interlaced, and I like the way it looks.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Bazookaben wrote:But then again, I guess it would be similar to what VR setups do for head movement when outputting 60fps content on a 120hz headset? That actually looks pretty good on my PSVR
Hmm, not quite. A motion-adaptive deinterlacer will try to use weave wherever possible (since weave deinterlacing with no motion re-creates the perfect 480p image), and uses an alternate technique like bob whenever there is motion (since motion causes artifacting with weave). It's not doing any reprojection like Oculus's Asynchronous Space Warp does.

Maybe to make it easier to understand, I'll explain the concept with a very simplified system (it'd be a lot more complex in practice). For any given scanline, if it's more similar to the previous scanline in the same field, use bob. If it's more similar to the previous scanline in the previous field, use weave. The idea is to try to get the best of both worlds for every part of the image.
vol.2 wrote:I don't want to play Final Fantasy XII deinterlaced. I think that would be weird. I'm so used to games like that interlaced, and I like the way it looks.
The PS4/XB1/Switch/PC versions of the game must look very odd to you then ;)

Does the HD CRT TVs do forced deinterlacing on 480i content? As in, could you not just connect the PS2 directly to the TV and let it display the 480i? I wouldn't think it was the kind of game where the bit of extra lag would be a problem. I don't think full-time bob de-interlacing will get you what you want, in my opinion it doesn't look that much like 480i on a 15khz display. But maybe it's close enough for you?
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Most HD CRTs automagically de-interlace 480i, though some have options to present it in "bob-like" 1080i which gives it a semi-authentic look. My old Hitachi used to be able to do that. This set, I havent found the option yet, if it exists. I agree with BazookaBen and Vol 2 though, I also prefer 480i games to present as interlaced (ie authentic) vs any kind of deinterlacing that makes them appear progressive.

Getting back to Ben and Vol 2's questions-- theres actually several de-interlacing modes in the 5X that give the effect he's looking for-- I was using "bob", but theres also "linear", and "CRT Simulate". I just went back and looked at all three, and while "bob" and "linear" both have the signature flicker of 480i, "CRT Simulate" goes a step further and weaves blank scanlines in each alternating frame, at the cost of some brightness, but IMO it looks EXACTLY like native 480i content on an SDTV. Very impressive, and the brightness loss is really not bad either, but it can be easily brightened up by the set if you so wish. I was going to video it to show it, and might still do so.

Also, happy to report that running my TV direct to power instead of using a surge protector, it did not shut down even a single time during this testing. :D Interesting.
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vol.2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

bascially, just as Josh says. when a game is really well optimized for 480i, it looks distinctive and sharp. i'm just so used to the effect that i love it, and this is primarily on games i've played many times and got used to that way. even on many games on ps2, but especially on Wii look much sharper in 480i than they do in 480p
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Glad to hear more voices singing the praises that interlaced video deserves! I've been evangelizing for 480i for a while now, but it's been hard to go against the pro-480p conventional wisdom.

BTW, it looks like the 5X has already done a fair bit to bring down the prices of the Framemeister as some of us predicted :lol: . It should only go even further down from here.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Yeah, for me, if I grew up playing a game in 480i, thats the look I like when playing today. My first 480p system was GC, and I got the cables right when they released, and I loved how crisp and sharp it was on the Hitachi Ultravision 36SDX88B. The fact that the 5X allows for both of these on the same set now with zero lag is just amazing.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Josh128 wrote:Yeah, for me, if I grew up playing a game in 480i, thats the look I like to when playing today. My first 480p system was GC, and I got the cables right when they released, and I loved how crisp and sharp it was on the Hitachi Ultravision 36SDX88B. The fact that the 5X allows for both of these on the same set now with zero lag is just amazing.
The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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BazookaBen wrote:
But, is there something like a "v-hold" setting in the service menu? Making minor adjustments to that should change where the scanlines land, and could possible give you proper "double strike" 540p. I don't know how that would effect the picture when a 1080i signal is sent though.
Hmm I'll take a look, I went through the other day and adjusted almost every setting in an attempt to get a 540p proper scanlined image with no success, but I'll get back into it. Been adjusting geometry a lot.

I'll go back to testing out my component input as well, really disappointing that I haven't had the same results with my tv, but the 480p does work very well right now.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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fernan1234 wrote:
The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.
The GBS -C does it when you use bob + scanlines, but like the OSSC can only do it in 480p which nets you 14.7 ms baseline lag on these HD sets. What I was referring to was being able to do all of this in the lag free 540p mode for these sets. AFAIK this is the only device so far that can do that.

Questions were asked on Reddit if this allows light guns to work. It would be interesting to test when I get a chance.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

incrediblehark wrote:
BazookaBen wrote:
But, is there something like a "v-hold" setting in the service menu? Making minor adjustments to that should change where the scanlines land, and could possible give you proper "double strike" 540p. I don't know how that would effect the picture when a 1080i signal is sent though.
Hmm I'll take a look, I went through the other day and adjusted almost every setting in an attempt to get a 540p proper scanlined image with no success, but I'll get back into it. Been adjusting geometry a lot.

I'll go back to testing out my component input as well, really disappointing that I haven't had the same results with my tv, but the 480p does work very well right now.
It sounds very much to me like your set is outputting 1080i, and the fact that every other line on 540p + scanlines is blank, your set is somehow displaying all the active lines in one field, and all the blank lines in the other field, which gives terrible strobing, like trying to use BFI on a 60hz display.

So this is with the digital port in? Is it an HDMI port on your set? Do me a favor and get one of these Portta DACs or equivalent non signal altering FAC and try the component in ports. My set definitely handles the same signals very differently (more compatible) on component than HDMI. The Porttas are super cheap ($20) and ship super fast from Amazon.

Also, you did enable the HDPT option?
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Josh128 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.
The GBS -C does it when you use bob + scanlines, but like the OSSC can only do it in 480p which nets you 14.7 ms baseline lag on these HD sets. What I was referring to was being able to do all of this in the lag free 540p mode for these sets. AFAIK this is the only device so far that can do that.

Questions were asked on Reddit if this allows light guns to work. It would be interesting to test when I get a chance.
Oh yeah you were talking specifically about 520p for HDTVs, indeed for that particular case the 5X is the only one that has done all of this without making the HDTV add lag.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Josh128 wrote:
It sounds very much to me like your set is outputting 1080i, and the fact that every other line on 540p + scanlines is blank, your set is somehow displaying all the active lines in one field, and all the blank lines in the other field, which gives terrible strobing, like trying to use BFI on a 60hz display.

So this is with the digital port in? Is it an HDMI port on your set? Do me a favor and get one of these Portta DACs or equivalent non signal altering FAC and try the component in ports. My set definitely handles the same signals very differently (more compatible) on component than HDMI. The Porttas are super cheap ($20) and ship super fast from Amazon.

Also, you did enable the HDPT option?
I believe it is outputting 1080i as well. No HDMI, it is DVI-D input. Using HDMI to DVI transcoder. I do have an Aliexpress HDMI to Component converter but I got the same results as the DVI input, but I will order a Portta to test as well, been meaning to buy one anyway.

When you say "Enable HDPT" do you mean setting it to 1 or 0? I set mine to 0 because I read that was the way to disable processing, but I'll try it with 1, which sounds like it would mean enabled.

Thanks for the advice, I'll order the Portta and will have a chance to test the other settings Monday. If it doesn't work out I'll have to stick with 480p and wait for a 1080i mode one day.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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incrediblehark wrote:
I believe it is outputting 1080i as well. No HDMI, it is DVI-D input. Using HDMI to DVI transcoder. I do have an Aliexpress HDMI to Component converter but I got the same results as the DVI input, but I will order a Portta to test as well, been meaning to buy one anyway.
.
Transcoder? HDMI to DVI use the same base signal so you should only need a passive adapter, like this adapter or this cable. But even with the right signal chain, we're talking about 540p to a digital input which might not work.

And guess your Aliexpress converter could be detecting a 33.75kHz signal, and automatically going into a 1080i mode. And if it's a scaler and not just a plain converter, then the chances of something going wrong increase. Once you try the Portta you'll know for sure.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by incrediblehark »

I do have one of those adapters, the only problem is no audio. It wasn’t a problem with ossc because there’s a 3.5mm audio out jack, but for the 5x I need to find a different solution. I didn’t see any difference in quality from the adapter or the transcoder, but like you said it’s the digital input.

Waiting on the portta but I tested out my other hdmi to component to confirm my results were the same as through dvi. It was. Hdpt didn’t change anything, I was able to eliminate the flicker using MDVS and VDVS The flicker went away but in doing so the vertical scan was cutting off picture that the other adjustments couldn’t fix.

We’ll see when the portta arrives though. I really don’t think I’ll get any different results than what I have so far, but I would love to be wrong in this case.

*Edited to include correct service menu adjustments*
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

incrediblehark wrote:I do have one of those adapters, the only problem is no audio. It wasn’t a problem with ossc because there’s a 3.5mm audio out jack, but for the 5x I need to find a different solution.
Why not skip the unnecessary extra step of passing/digitizing the audio through the scaler, and instead simply route your audio directly to your audio receiver/speakers? Unless of course all your have for audio are the speakers built into your TV, which are never ideal so maybe this can also work as an incentive to improve your audio setup as well.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by BazookaBen »

fernan1234 wrote:Why not skip the unnecessary extra step of passing/digitizing the audio through the scaler, and instead simply route your audio directly to your audio receiver/speakers? Unless of course all your have for audio are the speakers built into your TV, which are never ideal so maybe this can also work as an incentive to improve your audio setup as well.
Yeah keep that shit analog all way into your eardrums and soul
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by incrediblehark »

Honestly the sound on the XBR is a lot better than I expected. But the guy who gave me the tv included a Bose speaker system I have yet to set up. I used to use external speakers for my d series though. I’ll try breaking out the audio before it gets to the 5x.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Another cool test, another first in the history of the world of HD CRTs. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRADxyghbE
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by incrediblehark »

Josh128 wrote:Another cool test, another first in the history of the world of HD CRTs. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRADxyghbE
Awesome! Do you think there's hope for any more complex lightgun games? Guessing Guncon might be out of the question but would love to play some Virtua Cop.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Im not sure. Logic would indicate that the finer/more precise the gun hit box, the increased chance that the +3.2 ms of lag in this setup would cause issues. I honestly didnt know what to expect here but Duck Hunt worked great and the gun seemed very accurate even from 4 feet away. I dont own any other light guns so this is the limit of my ability to test.

I did confirm however, that when I switched the output to 480p, the lightgun didnt work. The >16 ms lag in that mode is just too much.

As far as the HDPT option you asked about, I dont remember if its 0 or 1 :x , I attempted to look today but my remote stopped working and needs new batteries or some TLC.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Fancier lightguns like the GunCon work by tracking the exact moment the raster beam passes through their field of view to know where on the screen you're pointing them, and so any amount of latency would throw it off. You've also decoupled the input and output raster by using a device like the 5X, so it's just a no-go.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Guspaz wrote:Fancier lightguns like the GunCon work by tracking the exact moment the raster beam passes through their field of view to know where on the screen you're pointing them, and so any amount of latency would throw it off. You've also decoupled the input and output raster by using a device like the 5X, so it's just a no-go.
From what Ive read about the GunCon I would tend to agree that it shouldnt work, but there must be some kind of threshold for working vs not working, maybe accuracy suffers the farther you get from 0 ms but it might still work at 1 ms or 2 ms etc. Im not sure this has ever really been put to the test. A GBS-C paired with a VGA monitor would be an obvious step faster to test vs this setup if it doesnt work, as I measured as low as 0.6 ms of lag with that setup vs an SD CRT. I'd be willing to buy a GunCon just to test out of curiosity if they are not outrageously priced just to test.

I have a PS1 and a PS2. I understand the GunCon 2 is the "de facto" standard while the GunCon 3 is a different design that works with all displays, so Im guessing a GC2 would be what I want. Whats a good widely known Gun game, and for which system, that would be good for such a test? I currently have a soft mod for PS2 that allows me to play .isos and I have a complete set that was given to me recently.
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