RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[Greg2600]

Well I saw the tweet awhile back, and I was instantly excited by it. Granted I could likely be covered with an OSSC + RetroTink SCART for my HDTV, but I really love that this 5X/Pro will have every input I desire on it. Basically like my old DVDO had on it. I imagine the price will be quite a bit less than the OSSC Pro has been rumored to be.

[NJRoadfan]

I'm excited. Auto-sync is the ONE feature I have been clamoring for. Just push one button, let it auto adjust like a LCD with VGA input has, and done. Folks using vintage computers with an upscaler will use this feature. Gaming consoles don't switch resolutions all that much, but a vintage PC or something like the Amiga certainly will.

[Gunstar]

Looks like it has motion adaptive deinterlacing:


I believe you need to tailor the method for video vs interlaced games. Looking forward to impressions of this from those familiar with good game deinterlacing!

[orange808]

It's good to see it's staying synced up with a VCR. That particular clip isn't necessarily a torture test for deinterlacing, though. Try H-Street Shackle Me Not. Skateboarding vid gives plenty of horizontal movement and they use a wide angle lens.

[kitty666cats]

It's good to see it's staying synced up with a VCR. That particular clip isn't necessarily a torture test for deinterlacing, though. Try H-Street Shackle Me Not. Skateboarding vid gives plenty of horizontal movement and they use a wide angle lens.

Heh, nice taste in skate videos, man! My buddies and I make skate videos and always put out a limited VHS release. We even made a video for Adult Swim!

https://youtu.be/409xTk1kD1c

^ thar she blows

https://youtu.be/ubLbTHl3Jq8

^ and that is the newest video. Sorry, always get excited to see other people who enjoy skating in our hobbyist circle

[NJRoadfan]

Looks like VHS playback stability has improved with this hardware. The 2X was kinda lackluster in that department and required a full frame TBC in the chain to properly capture without freezing/frame drops.

[kitty666cats]

Looks like VHS playback stability has improved with this hardware. The 2X was kinda lackluster in that department and required a full frame TBC in the chain to properly capture without freezing/frame drops.

What TBC do you use? I have an Extron YCS 100, “breaks” 240p in composite -> Y/C digital decoding (its encoding the opposite way shouldn’t, according to specs) but that’s fine since I don’t use it for games, heh. Hopefully I’ll get a nice S-VHS VCR someday though...o

[orange808]

Looks like VHS playback stability has improved with this hardware. The 2X was kinda lackluster in that department and required a full frame TBC in the chain to properly capture without freezing/frame drops.

What TBC do you use? I have an Extron YCS 100, “breaks” 240p in composite -> Y/C digital decoding (its encoding the opposite way shouldn’t, according to specs) but that’s fine since I don’t use it for games, heh. Hopefully I’ll get a nice S-VHS VCR someday though...o

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters. You'll probably be happier feeding composite directly to the Retrotink5x-Pro. I seriously doubt the comb filter will underperform an old S-VHS deck.

[kitty666cats]

Looks like VHS playback stability has improved with this hardware. The 2X was kinda lackluster in that department and required a full frame TBC in the chain to properly capture without freezing/frame drops.

What TBC do you use? I have an Extron YCS 100, “breaks” 240p in composite -> Y/C digital decoding (its encoding the opposite way shouldn’t, according to specs) but that’s fine since I don’t use it for games, heh. Hopefully I’ll get a nice S-VHS VCR someday though...o

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters. You'll probably be happier feeding composite directly to the Retrotink5x-Pro. I seriously doubt the comb filter will underperform an old S-VHS deck.

I was asking about time base correction specifically, not comb filtering - unfortunately a lot of S-VHS decks are still the best option for TBCs, as the best external ones are well-documented by DigitalFAQ and are around $300-1000+ USD O_o;

I mentioned the YCS 100 specifically as it’s the particular Extron composite -> Y/C that has a TBC in addition to comb filtering

[NJRoadfan]

What TBC do you use? I have an Extron YCS 100, “breaks” 240p in composite -> Y/C digital decoding (its encoding the opposite way shouldn’t, according to specs) but that’s fine since I don’t use it for games, heh. Hopefully I’ll get a nice S-VHS VCR someday though...o

All TBCs break 240p as they are designed to output RS-170a 480i compliant video by design. I have an AV Toolbox AVT-8710, the older green one that isn't buggy. Its a rebrand of a Cypress CYP-100. All it really does is act as a frame buffer for a capture card, it doesn't do much actual time-base correction of video tapes. Regarding comb filters in old SVHS VCRs. JVC seems to have a pretty good one in their late 90s-early 00s SVHS decks. The Panasonic AG-1980 has an older 3D filter that needs a couple of frames to remove dot crawl. The Retrotink-2X does a decent job too compared to what most consumer devices have. The Toshiba TIMM has a nasty notch comb filter for example.

[energizerfellow‌]

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here... Why would VHS (or any of the color-under tape formats, e.g. Beta) need a comb filter for playback when the physical tape media itself is Y/C at the hardware layer? Shouldn't a S-VHS deck be end-to-end Y/C if you're using the S-video connections? Only time a comb filter would be involved would be if you're feeding a composite input into the S-VHS VCR for recording or recording with a classic non-S VHS deck?

[NJRoadfan]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here... Why would VHS (or any of the color-under tape formats, e.g. Beta) need a comb filter for playback when the physical tape media itself is Y/C at the hardware layer? Shouldn't a S-VHS deck be end-to-end Y/C if you're using the S-video connections? Only time a comb filter would be involved would be if you're feeding a composite input into the S-VHS VCR for recording or recording with a classic non-S VHS deck?

The comb filter would be primarily used by the TV tuner when recording off air programming. The VCRs can also be used as a pass-thru comb filter as well, although that wasn't an advertised feature.

[Dochartaigh]

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters.

This is news to me as well. My BEST playback of VHS tapes I've ever seen has been on a smaller medical SVHS player (Sony SVO-9500MDP) over S-Video, then converted to RGBS with a Kramer FC-4044 (which doesn't mention "comb" anywhere in the manual) to any one of my CRT's. Like mind-blowing quality for VHS (especially after growing up with VHS looking so absolutely horrible, blurry, and washed out). Not knowing much about these (except for how the picture looks) I always thought it was because the SVHS player had a great comb filter, and/or the ability to output nicer S-Video.

None of my professional VHS decks, from the smaller medical ones, to the Sony and JVC ~90 pound rack mounted ones (all over composite) have been able to touch those SVHS players playing VHS tapes for some reason.

[Speedy]

Is there any chance the RetroTINK 5x-Pro will support 1080i output?

This would be a cool option for CRTs that max out at 33kHz and often don't handle 15kHz natively.

I'm wondering if it would be as simple as scaling to 1080p internally which is already happening and then just interlacing the output if the chips being used support that.

[energizerfellow‌]

My BEST playback of VHS tapes I've ever seen has been on a smaller medical SVHS player (Sony SVO-9500MDP) over S-Video, then converted to RGBS with a Kramer FC-4044 (which doesn't mention "comb" anywhere in the manual) to any one of my CRT's. Like mind-blowing quality for VHS (especially after growing up with VHS looking so absolutely horrible, blurry, and washed out). Not knowing much about these (except for how the picture looks) I always thought it was because the SVHS player had a great comb filter, and/or the ability to output nicer S-Video.

None of my professional VHS decks, from the smaller medical ones, to the Sony and JVC ~90 pound rack mounted ones (all over composite) have been able to touch those SVHS players playing VHS tapes for some reason.

Assuming you're using the S-Video connectors on the VCR/VTR, any tape, "S" or otherwise, in a S-VHS / ED Beta / Hi8 deck should be end-to-end separate Y/C from the tape's native Y/C all the way to the display and never pass through a comb filter or have Y/C mixed together. Things like heads, tape handling, amplifier bandwidth, and shielding also tended to be much newer, better designs with tighter QC on these higher-spec decks as well. This is before even getting into professional decks being more performant than consumer stuff, generally speaking.

I can only see a comb filter getting involved if you're feeding either CVBS composite or RF into the deck for recording or pass-through.

Does anybody know if the later digital decks, e.g. D-VHS / Digital8 / Digital-S / Digital Betacam / whatever, will digitally resample the original analog tape's video feed if you're using the deck's analog outputs? On the digital side, consumer hardware would, unfortunately, be 4:1:1 DV over Firewire / IEEE 1394, but the pro decks should be a much more usable 10-bit 4:2:2 over SDI.

[fernan1234]

Is there any chance the RetroTINK 5x-Pro will support 1080i output?

This would be a cool option for CRTs that max out at 33kHz and often don't handle 15kHz natively.

I'm wondering if it would be as simple as scaling to 1080p internally which is already happening and then just interlacing the output if the chips being used support that.

It's hard to think why it couldn't be doable. Will have to wait until Mike starts sharing more details on this product for confirmation though.

[Jefferson]

Since this has motion adaptive deinterlacing, does that mean it has a full frame buffer?

[caivs]

In case anyone missed Mike Chi's tweet, he posted a video showing auto phase detection: https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 4943682565 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtQlOInzbqQ

[NJRoadfan]

Does anybody know if the later digital decks, e.g. D-VHS / Digital8 / Digital-S / Digital Betacam / whatever, will digitally resample the original analog tape's video feed if you're using the deck's analog outputs? On the digital side, consumer hardware would, unfortunately, be 4:1:1 DV over Firewire / IEEE 1394, but the pro decks should be a much more usable 10-bit 4:2:2 over SDI.

My JVC DVHS deck digitally processes all analog playback and anything that is connected to the line inputs. My JVC SVHS decks only do it for tape playback when the TBC/DNR function is on. Analog inputs are not touched outside of a comb filter on composite.

[Guspaz]

Since this has motion adaptive deinterlacing, does that mean it has a full frame buffer?

Yeah, though it seems it's only used if you turn on buffering.

[matt]

Is there any chance the RetroTINK 5x-Pro will support 1080i output?

This would be a cool option for CRTs that max out at 33kHz and often don't handle 15kHz natively.

I'm wondering if it would be as simple as scaling to 1080p internally which is already happening and then just interlacing the output if the chips being used support that.

+1 for this idea.

If it's possible, letterboxed 540p would be nice, since it would let you run 240p games on an HD CRT without ruining the scanline filter (and potentially with less lag).

[NewSchoolBoxer]

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters. You'll probably be happier feeding composite directly to the Retrotink5x-Pro. I seriously doubt the comb filter will underperform an old S-VHS deck.

Been said but that's too broad of a statement. SVHS players were expensive and the only reason to buy them over VHS player was the higher quality audio and video, both from the expensive SVHS tapes and the now-better-filtered VHS.

The VCRs can also be used as a pass-thru comb filter as well, although that wasn't an advertised feature.

That's what I was thinking. Not like you get pure, no noise signals pulling Y and C from a magnetic tape. Filter would still help remove noise, not to mention that tapes degrade over time.

That said, I have a question. Do we know or can we get confirmation that Retrotink 5x-Pro converts Composite and S-Video straight to digital video (HDMI)? I ask because I read the BOM of Mike's kindly open sourced Retrotink-Ultimate. That device uses the popular AD725 chip, meaning the transcoding chain is HDMI -> analog RGBHV -> Composite or S-Video. If the demodulated Composite and S-Video pass to Component or RGB first then the digital video quality of the output is reduced.

[Bahn Yuki]

Is there any chance the RetroTINK 5x-Pro will support 1080i output?

This would be a cool option for CRTs that max out at 33kHz and often don't handle 15kHz natively.

I'm wondering if it would be as simple as scaling to 1080p internally which is already happening and then just interlacing the output if the chips being used support that.

+1 for this idea.

If it's possible, letterboxed 540p would be nice, since it would let you run 240p games on an HD CRT without ruining the scanline filter (and potentially with less lag).

Would be an automatic purchase for many.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[orange808]

S-VHS machines have dated and bad comb filters. You'll probably be happier feeding composite directly to the Retrotink5x-Pro. I seriously doubt the comb filter will underperform an old S-VHS deck.

Been said but that's too broad of a statement.

Two things:

A.
I shouldn't have mentioned video tapes and deinterlacing. Also, I shouldn't have chimed in on the comb filter, because I was talking about video games. The conversation had clearly rolled over completely to video tapes. I didn't "read the room". That's on me.

B.
I have personally tried a dozen real SVHS units from multiple price ranges to see what kind of low latency options were available. So, I'm not sitting around the fire lazily throwing out blind speculation from a bar stool. I'm here to tell you right now, you have two options from that era: blurry output or nasty dot crawl.

That makes sense, because the industry continued forward to a new era of digital 3d comb filters. I can plug in my Pioneer DVD recorder deck right now and the difference is night and day. I also have an RCA DVD recorder deck that performs very well.

So, I'm sharing what I found by plugging game consoles into real hardware. If I missed a golden chain and a great SVHS deck that manages to perform excellent work using an old 2d or notch filter, please share the make and.model with the rest of us. I'd love to hear about it. Bear in mind, I also own (and have previously owned) dozens of video processors as well.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Two things:

A.
I shouldn't have mentioned video tapes and deinterlacing. Also, I shouldn't have chimed in on the comb filter, because I was talking about video games. The conversation had clearly rolled over completely to video tapes. I didn't "read the room". That's on me.

B.
I have personally tried a dozen real SVHS units from multiple price ranges to see what kind of low latency options were available. So, I'm not sitting around the fire lazily throwing out blind speculation from a bar stool. I'm here to tell you right now, you have two options from that era: blurry output or nasty dot crawl.

That makes sense, because the industry continued forward to a new era of digital 3d comb filters. I can plug in my Pioneer DVD recorder deck right now and the difference is night and day. I also have an RCA DVD recorder deck that performs very well.

So, I'm sharing what I found by plugging game consoles into real hardware. If I missed a golden chain and a great SVHS deck that manages to perform excellent work using an old 2d or notch filter, please share the make and.model with the rest of us. I'd love to hear about it. Bear in mind, I also own (and have previously owned) dozens of video processors as well.

Fair point that conversation got sidetracked. I'm glad that you're a subject matter expert here. I'm trying to buy an SVHS+DVD recorder that sells for less than $80. No luck but I did compile a list of about 20 models that have S-Video input + output since sellers don't necessary think to give images of that. I haven't used one since I recorded 4Kids Pokemon to VHS. I'm sorry I only want to buy one deck so I can't do my own research.

Digital 3d comb filters are exactly that - digital. I'd love to hear you tell us one that handles 240p/480i and doesn't de-interlace. Maybe it's possible to scale correctly to 1080i. To a lesser extent, I don't want quantization noise and propagation delay that risks corrupting the video-sync timing going [RF or composite -> ADC -> filter -> DCA -> S-Video -> capture card / recorder].

I certainly agree the potential gain in video quality is higher in realm of 3d filter property of looking 2-3 frames in the past recorded in memory that a 2d filter by definition doesn't do. You're also comparing to a Retrotink 5x-Pro that hasn't been released and must be lag-free that limits the extent of its video processing and de-interlacing ability. This is an agreeable tradeoff for almost everyone. In the narrow case of authentic RF + composite recording, I need another option.

[Guspaz]

The RT5X isn't necessarily lag-free, there's a framebuffer, which when enabled, adds 0.5 to 1.5 frames of lag, if I'm remembering what Mike said on Twitter.

[Restart_Point]

I have very simple requirements so the 2X-Scart has been doing me OK for 80% of my consoles but but if the 5X has RGB Scart, composite and s-video input (and hopefully some kind of remote control) then I need one just for the convenience.

Will the OSSC pro have all that too?

[Guspaz]

The photos we've seen so far do seem to have S-Video, Component, SCART, and I'm assuming composite is shared on the green input like usual. I also see an IR receiver module on the front.

This is a prototype, so not final:

[NewSchoolBoxer]

The RT5X isn't necessarily lag-free, there's a framebuffer, which when enabled, adds 0.5 to 1.5 frames of lag, if I'm remembering what Mike said on Twitter.

Oh nice, that is the exact sort of feature I want in an analog to digital converter. Optimal de-interlacing can't be done in real time and with 1.0+ frame of lag, can use frame stacking to cut down on noise. I find 2.0 frames of lag agreeable.

I have very simple requirements so the 2X-Scart has been doing me OK for 80% of my consoles but but if the 5X has RGB Scart, composite and s-video input (and hopefully some kind of remote control) then I need one just for the convenience.

Will the OSSC pro have all that too?

Someone probably knows more about this than I do but when I read through the OSSC pro thread a few months ago, it wasn't taking composite or s-video. People thought an adapter might be made for separate purchase. Surprised me when it's competing with Framemeister that accepts composite and s-video. Is what most people use. [We are not most people here.] I only ever used composite with PS2 because teenager me didn't know any better.

[Guspaz]

Mike posted a new photo of the final design: