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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:21 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1391
Tempest_2084 wrote:
Wow sold out in less than 15 min. I wonder how many units were in the initial run?


Based on the timing and order numbers we're seeing, I'm gonna guess about 2500 units were available.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:21 pm 


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Chacranajxy wrote:
I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.


You think so? That would mean he made at least 2500 of them and they sold out in less than 15 minutes. If that's true then that's amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:22 pm 


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Chacranajxy wrote:
I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.

I'm excited.


No shit? I thought I read somewhere there was only going to be about 300 or so in the initial run? Just by your number to mine he had at least 1500+.


Last edited by Josh128 on Sat May 01, 2021 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:24 pm 



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Posts: 421
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Tempest_2084 wrote:
Chacranajxy wrote:
I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.


You think so? That would mean he made at least 2500 of them and they sold out in less than 15 minutes. If that's true then that's amazing.


Closer to 5 minutes, I think. Probably crazy sales velocity either way.

But then... people haven't been able to get a PS5, or a 3080, or leave the house for... how long now? Demand's probably through the roof for something fun like this.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:50 pm 


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Got myself in at order 21777 at 11:01 CT. With the numbers and times posted here it looks like he sold over 1,555 units in less than 9 minutes. Well done, Mike.

This'll be my first TINK product (always thought of them as the lower-end) but it looks like it will do what I need it to do and I just sold my Framemeister off for $700 last month.

I'm kinda at a weird juncture now though. Between all of the HDMI mods I've installed and the MiSTer, I don't really need analog processing anymore except for the Sega Saturn and PS2 and I can use my OSSC or BVM for those...
I almost skipped out on this but my living room 4KTV has no analog input so this would be perfect to use as a generic analog input interface for all types of devices.

And what can I say, I'm probably addicted to purchasing scaling equipment, because count me in for that PixelFX box, too.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:58 pm 



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
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Ha, already got my shipping notification. Mike works quick.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:03 pm 


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I just thought of something, I assume my NES and SMS 3D Glasses won't work with the 5X Pro. Not that that's a huge loss (although the SMS glasses are pretty good), but I guess I'll need to keep my CRT around still (well that and for lightgun games).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:19 pm 


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OP updated with links to Fudoh's review and Bob's review video.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 405
Finally time to put the ol' Framemeister out to pasture. I've avoided playing a bunch of games on the Saturn. Really pleased on how well the order process went. Didn't even see an error on my end.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:44 pm 


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All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:47 pm 


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Quote:
I expect both of them to be utter tinker-fests; to a level that I'll hardly ever actually play anything on them. But that's alright, since I got my 5X for that


You are allowed to ignore these advanced options you know :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:24 pm 


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AyeYoYoYO wrote:
All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.


4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.


Last edited by Josh128 on Sat May 01, 2021 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:28 pm 


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Incredible writeup, Fudoh. I Appreciate you taking all the pros and cons into account.

I picked up a 5X today, but I do wonder about the potential chroma upsampling error you mentioned. That stuck out to me too. I'm not too bothered by added input delay, though.

When it arrives, I'm eager to test it out.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:51 pm 



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Waiting for all the Framemeisters to hit ebay next week.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:02 am 


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Posts: 19
Josh128 wrote:
AyeYoYoYO wrote:
All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.


4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.
Well yes, for most gaming situations 4ms is undetectable. But for hosting local Fighting game tournaments, or playing relatively high level FG, where we are already shaving off milliseconds where we can (Samsung terrace is as fast as CRT’s now), and I could scale MVC2 UP TO 1440p from a Dreamcast thru a RetroTink 2x classic & mcable gaming edition TOGETHER in 0.553ms, [0.053 for the 2x classic and 0.5ms for the mcable), then my display only added 8.9ms, I can’t justify “upgrading” to a newer scaling solution which would add a minimum of 3.5ms more.

For most people this is a non-issue.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:53 am 


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Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:02 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).


You can see the full menu system in the manual (https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf)

There aren't any aspect ratio settings, technically, just different sampling settings.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:10 am 



Joined: 06 Apr 2021
Posts: 6
Looking forward to seeing the firmware updated with a PSP specific mode. Can't wait to retire my Lenkeng scaler for the PSP for when I feel like playing something like Sega Rally Revo on my TV.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:16 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).


You can see the full menu system in the manual (https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf)

There aren't any aspect ratio settings, technically, just different sampling settings.


Looks like auto phase detection is for the optimized sampling modes, but generic probably looks good in most cases anyways.

Looking forward to pictures in a couple weeks. And for someone to test out GBI :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 3:12 am 



Joined: 16 Aug 2020
Posts: 10
TDLR: If the RetroTink 5X is set to component input but the audio jacks are not used, does the resulting HDMI signal carry audio?

Apologies for sort of a specific and complicated question that I'll probably have to test myself, but I know Mike and others that might know the answer are in this thread so here goes:

My setup right now is using an AVR (audio/video receiver), with multiple HDMI inputs to the AVR, and one HDMI connection going from the AVR to the TV using the HDMI ARC port. If you aren't familiar with ARC, essentially this port is dual purpose. The AVR takes its HDMI inputs and processes the audio itself to the speakers and sends video to the TV through this port. However, when the TV is not set to receive the signal from this port and is playing media natively like say in the Netflix smart TV app or when using the TVs other HDMI ports, it displays the video and sends the audio to the receiver through that same HDMI ARC port. With HDMI-CEC turned on the two can communicate with each other, for example the TV will automatically switch the AVR to its "TV Audio" input whenever the TV is displaying its own video source.

This AVR has two component inputs that I have two consoles connected to, and one component output that goes to the TV, however the component cables going to the TV don't include the audio cables since it's already being processed by the AVR, I only use the 3 RCA jacks for YPbPr from the AVR to the TV. I was thinking of placing the 5X here (between the AVR and the TV) that way I can use the AVR to switch between the two consoles with the 5X without having to plug and unplug. My question is, since the 5X wouldn't be taking any audio input, just the 3 RCA jacks for YPbPr video, would the HDMI connection from the 5X to the TV somehow introduce a nonexistent audio signal to the TV over HDMI? The TV doesn't seem to have a problem when it's set to component input and the audio jacks are unplugged. What I don't want is for the TV to see the HDMI input from the 5X, and send an HDMI-CEC command to switch the AVR to the "TV Audio" input thus disrupting the AVR component input that's being fed to the 5X. I'd like to avoid having to turn off HDMI-CEC, or having to put the 5X before the AVR and getting something like the gcompsw which costs almost as much as the 5X itself (but on the plus side would allow for more than two inputs).

Edit: I did some tests with another HDMI source, and even though it does trigger HDMI-CEC at first, I think I can get around this by just switching the TV input first then the AVR input to component, hopefully it doesn't retrigger later with resolution changes or anything like that, it didn't do that in this test.


Last edited by N64 on Sun May 02, 2021 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:01 am 



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 421
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Another review worth watching from Scarlet Sprites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SLixWd6EI

Focuses more on arcade stuff and was a lot more interesting to me as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:35 am 


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Chacranajxy wrote:
Another review worth watching from Scarlet Sprites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SLixWd6EI

Focuses more on arcade stuff and was a lot more interesting to me as a result.

Thank you :!:
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:12 am 


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Quote:
Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes.


It has never been necessary to dial in phase in the generic sampling modes. I agree, Bob was a little bit unclear about this, the advantage comes in the optimal modes it offers which give near OSSC levels of sharpness with no need to adjust phase.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:20 pm 



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darcagn wrote:
I just sold my Framemeister off for $700 last month.


Yeah? I call BS


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:52 pm 



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Posts: 165
There's a listing for Retrotink on ebay already for £550 :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:55 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
AyeYoYoYO wrote:
All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.


4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.


The earlier figures of 4ms minimum, and over 20ms with all functions on were based on Mike’s own site, stating “<0.25 frames” since a frame = 16.67ms, I estimated 4 as <0.25 frames. And the earlier estimate of over 20ms with all bells and whistles turned on, were again based off his website stating “~1.25 frames” which I took to mean “16.67ms + 4ms = 20.67ms”

Apparently it’s fastest operation is down around 2ms, and slowest at 17ms, per RetroRGB.
Which is still significantly slower than a RetroTink2x + MCable gaming edition which combined are under 1ms.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 2:26 pm 


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thchardcore wrote:
Waiting for all the Framemeisters to hit ebay next week.


It's already happened. There are 21 listed right now, much higher than normal.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 3:05 pm 



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AyeYoYoYO wrote:
Apparently it’s fastest operation is down around 2ms, and slowest at 17ms, per RetroRGB.
Which is still significantly slower than a RetroTink2x + MCable gaming edition which combined are under 1ms.


I'm guessing that it's because the polyphase scaling algorithm is simply slower than integer scaling. I'd then wonder if choosing the integer mode is only adjusting the aspect ratio/panning, but still using the same polyphase algorithm.

I'm also guessing that no reviewer has lag tested the 5X in 2X mode, which again would reveal if the latter actually uses an integer algorithm instead of the polyphase one, so that the 5X in 2X mode would be as fast as the 2X-Pro/Classic/M.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 4:52 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.

4ms by itself isn't shit, but you've got to keep in mind that lag is cumulative

if you already have a borderline laggy display, and extra 4ms could but you over the edge of missing a input sampling window


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:26 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.


I don't really think passing or failing this human metronome challenge is really indicative of whether or not the lag is impactful in real world gameplay

20ms is roughly equivalent to a Framemeister, isn't it?

I am not a mutant, I am not a pro gamer. I'm a guy that sometimes likes to play Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! on NES, and while I find the Framemeister acceptable for most games, this is a game I cannot get far into on a Framemeister. The lag of my panel plus Framemeister puts the later World Circuit matches out of my ability. I guess I'll find out if the TINK5X Pro can handle this.


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