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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:07 pm 


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Location: Singapore
Hey, one thing that has been bothering me regarding the 240p downscaling feature :
I can't see any effect by switching from 16:9 to 4:3 sampling modes, when downscaling from 480p (720x480), with the latest firmware (1.29).
The full 16:9 picture is still compressed horizontally into a 4:3 ratio.

It's supposed to work as shown by Bob in this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwNrqIjxBaA&t=1253s

Maybe it's due to my setup.
My source is either a PS4 Slim or a Switch :
Source => HDFury 3 (component output) => RT5XPro => Tendak HDMI to VGA DAC => DE-15 input of Martin Hejnfelt's BKM-129X clone, installed in a PVM-20L5

Any clues ?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:07 pm 


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I think the cropping feature Bob showed in the video is for (1280x)720p sources only.
720px wide sources retain their full horizontal resolution when downscaling, so there's nothing to crop on 480p sources.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:32 pm 


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VGA switches dont switch audio. Huge disadvantage vs something like this, which is a fantastic automatic SCART switch.

SCART is here to stay. Lets get back on topic please.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:50 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
VGA switches dont switch audio. Huge disadvantage vs something like this, which is a fantastic automatic SCART switch.


All the ones I've used (Extron) do switch audio. Not easy to move on from this topic if you bring up incorrect points.

edit: and yes SCART is here to stay, but that has nothing to do with talking about (better) alternatives for RGB or other analogue signals.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:24 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
VGA switches dont switch audio. Huge disadvantage vs something like this, which is a fantastic automatic SCART switch.


All the ones I've used (Extron) do switch audio. Not easy to move on from this topic if you bring up incorrect points.

edit: and yes SCART is here to stay, but that has nothing to do with talking about (better) alternatives for RGB or other analogue signals.


Thats fine, but the discussion doesnt belong in this thread. The 5X doesnt have a VGA /DE-15 port.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:27 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Thats fine, but the discussion doesnt belong in this thread. The 5X doesnt have a VGA /DE-15 port.


It could. Mike has mentioned the possibility of an alternative version with one, and he also designed an adapter board for it. Just like there were various versions of the 2X, there can be future revisions of the 5X.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:55 pm 


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Personally I think an adapter board makes more sense than doing two different SKUs of the 5X. Sounds a lot easier to manage from a logistics standpoint, but I'm looking at it from the standpoint of somebody who would have to carry all the SKUs for sale.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:14 pm 


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parodius wrote:
Hey, one thing that has been bothering me regarding the 240p downscaling feature :
I can't see any effect by switching from 16:9 to 4:3 sampling modes, when downscaling from 480p (720x480), with the latest firmware (1.29).
The full 16:9 picture is still compressed horizontally into a 4:3 ratio.

It's supposed to work as shown by Bob in this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwNrqIjxBaA&t=1253s

Maybe it's due to my setup.
My source is either a PS4 Slim or a Switch :
Source => HDFury 3 (component output) => RT5XPro => Tendak HDMI to VGA DAC => DE-15 input of Martin Hejnfelt's BKM-129X clone, installed in a PVM-20L5

Any clues ?


Here is interesting thread about someone playing Wii in 16:9 on 20L5 by using underscan + raster change setting. Comment half way down mentions two games that are hardlocked to 16:9 if you try to play on PVM. https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/bzihn9/i_dont_always_play_169_but_when_i_have_to_i/

Why is your chain that complicated? Can't you skip the HDFury 3 and RTX5Pro and go straight from Source to Tendak to PVM or Source to HDFury 3 to PVM?. Also if native game source is anything higher than 240p, which you're suggesting by PS4 or Switch source it is, then scanlines weren't intended to exist for it. Just stay in progressive mode.

I think input lag would be garbage but you could buy an old Roku with analog video outputs and stream to that. Supposed to have 16:9 and 4:3 modes in its Display menu.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:35 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304013758958?hash=item46c8a1d1ee:g:EnMAAOSw1W5gsWsx#shpCntId

You can also daisy-chain 2 6-port Ars for 11 inputs and the same full rack size, they're generally much more available.


I love the ridiculousness of 12 VGA + audio inputs for 2 outputs...for $90.99 and free shipping. 30% off so I guess there is no demand.

I see Josh128's link to affordable Bandridge SCART switcher. That's cool they're still making switchers to have manufacturing spec competition and shipping is only $7 to US. Not sure about import fees.

While I criticize Analogue marketing of "not an emulator despite fixing hardware emulator bugs in every firmware update", I respect their NES NT Mini design. Uses VGA output for every analog video format so SCART has no monopoly. Their own guide links Monoprice breakout cables with no referral. As much as occasional poster doesn't read the manual and asks why VGA to VGA doesn't work, this should be a thing: https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/articles/115000923948-Using-Analog-Video-output-with-the-Nt-mini

6 foot (1.8m) HD-15 to BNC breakout cable for $10! VGA/DVI/BNC locking mechanisms also nice. Quality SCART breakout cables run $35?

SirNickity wrote:
...the cables are being manufactured by people often with no formal education in EE, just some motivation and an itch to fire up their first oscilloscope


THIS too. Why bother with $350 oscilloscope overhead and what is frequency domain lulz?

I have EE degree and make angry internet posts about expensive cables with no specs or datasheet. Stuck at the part of which crimp or compression tool + connectors to use.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:23 am 


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$91 for a 12-input auto switcher is certainly quite good, though the import costs are not insignificant if you're outside the US (though not nearly so bad as the insane shipping costs of the Crosspoint switches, those things are massive).

Bandridge SCART switchers work OK, but do degrade the image. I think I still have one in a box somewhere. I gave the rest to My Life in Gaming for their SCART switcher episode a few years back, and I didn't want them back :)

Analogue's marketing and shipping policies might be pretty terrible, but the product themselves are brilliant, especially for the price once they started selling them for $190. I may not be thrilled with them as a company, but I have great respect for Kevin Horton's work, and do want to buy more of their consoles. I'd certainly be interested in carrying their products if they ever decided to do distribution instead of direct sales, if only to help resolve one of their biggest problems.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:33 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
I think the cropping feature Bob showed in the video is for (1280x)720p sources only.
720px wide sources retain their full horizontal resolution when downscaling, so there's nothing to crop on 480p sources.

Oh. I will try this, thanks.

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Here is interesting thread about someone playing Wii in 16:9 on 20L5 by using underscan + raster change setting. Comment half way down mentions two games that are hardlocked to 16:9 if you try to play on PVM. https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/bzihn9/i_dont_always_play_169_but_when_i_have_to_i/

Thanks, I remember seeing this.
It's useful information for 16:9 games, but in my case I should have mentioned that I'm mostly interested in games that originally 4:3, but displayed within a 16:9 layout on modern consoles.
Think ports/emulation of older games, like Hamster's Arcade Archives or M2's ShotTriggers collection.

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Why is your chain that complicated? Can't you skip the HDFury 3 and RTX5Pro and go straight from Source to Tendak to PVM or Source to HDFury 3 to PVM?. Also if native game source is anything higher than 240p, which you're suggesting by PS4 or Switch source it is, then scanlines weren't intended to exist for it. Just stay in progressive mode.

My chain is complicated specifically because I'm trying to achieve 240p downscaling.
Since when are we supposed to stay within the boundaries of what things were "intended" ? :D
Anyway as mentioned above, I'm doing this mostly for older games on modern consoles, which were displayed in 15khz with scanlines on the original hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:06 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
I think the cropping feature Bob showed in the video is for (1280x)720p sources only.
720px wide sources retain their full horizontal resolution when downscaling, so there's nothing to crop on 480p sources.

That was it, indeed.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:38 am 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!

I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.


Mike, having any luck with these modes yet? Just checking in, no rush. :mrgreen:


Guspaz wrote:
Bandridge SCART switchers work OK, but do degrade the image. I think I still have one in a box somewhere. I gave the rest to My Life in Gaming for their SCART switcher episode a few years back, and I didn't want them back :)


Are you saying this applies to these 5 port active auto switches? Because Im currently using one daisy chained with a Keene Syncblaster SCART Commander and there is no visible degradation vs the SCART Commander alone or vs not using a switch at all on my setup. Im not using a scope, but noise/interference/degradation is pretty easy to spot on a 36" CRT, and theres none in my setup.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:24 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
I think the cropping feature Bob showed in the video is for (1280x)720p sources only.
720px wide sources retain their full horizontal resolution when downscaling, so there's nothing to crop on 480p sources.

So it works, but I quickly noticed that 720p downscaling to 240p exhibits an issue (both in 16:9 and 4:3 sampling modes) that I didn't have with 480p to 240p downscaling :
Every minute or two, there seems to be a loss of sync for 1/10th of second, a bit like the issue we can see throughout this MLIG video where Coury uses the GBSC to downscale 480p to 240p, but much less frequent.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:56 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Bandridge SCART switchers work OK, but do degrade the image. I think I still have one in a box somewhere. I gave the rest to My Life in Gaming for their SCART switcher episode a few years back, and I didn't want them back :)


Are you saying this applies to these 5 port active auto switches? Because Im currently using one daisy chained with a Keene Syncblaster SCART Commander and there is no visible degradation vs the SCART Commander alone or vs not using a switch at all on my setup. Im not using a scope, but noise/interference/degradation is pretty easy to spot on a 36" CRT, and theres none in my setup.


The manual/passive Bandridge switchers don't appear to have any degradation, though they do have the voltage leaking issues. The automatic Bandridge switchers introduce a significant loss in brightness and sharpness.

You can see MLiG's testing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998tBzpJhVo&t=379s

The SB7725 is the passive one that doesn't impact image quality, while the SB7735 that I sent them is the active one that has the image quality issues. You can see the side-by-side comparison at 8:17.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:39 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Bandridge SCART switchers work OK, but do degrade the image. I think I still have one in a box somewhere. I gave the rest to My Life in Gaming for their SCART switcher episode a few years back, and I didn't want them back :)


Are you saying this applies to these 5 port active auto switches? Because Im currently using one daisy chained with a Keene Syncblaster SCART Commander and there is no visible degradation vs the SCART Commander alone or vs not using a switch at all on my setup. Im not using a scope, but noise/interference/degradation is pretty easy to spot on a 36" CRT, and theres none in my setup.


The manual/passive Bandridge switchers don't appear to have any degradation, though they do have the voltage leaking issues. The automatic Bandridge switchers introduce a significant loss in brightness and sharpness.

You can see MLiG's testing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998tBzpJhVo&t=379s

The SB7725 is the passive one that doesn't impact image quality, while the SB7735 that I sent them is the active one that has the image quality issues. You can see the side-by-side comparison at 8:17.


Im using the SB7735, and the differences shown in his video are pretty subtle even on his closeup shots and not visible at all on my CRT vs a Keene or direct. He did specifically mention it doesnt add any noise, just a bit of brightness and sharpness loss. I've used bad mechanical switches before and some are terrible. The SB7735 is far from terrible, I didnt know about this until you brought it up. I say its far from a deal breaker when the next cheapest SCART option is a $300 gscartsw and I got this for $90 USD shipped. I did have a super strange issue at first when using the PS1 with it. I dont remember specifically if it was the +5V on the PS1 SCART or using c-sync vs sync on luma, but when I would plug my PS1 into the switch it would crash the entire switch, nothing would work, even when the PS1 was off. I removed (whichever it was, +5 or cysync) from the SCART cable and it immediately began working fine.

That said, if I ever get an LG 42" OLED to replace my CRT setup, it might be worth revisiting. As it stands, for setups like mine, I stand by my assertion that at 1/3 the price of the next step up the SB7735 very decent option.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:36 pm 


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Well, in this case the even cheaper solution was to use the SB7725, basically just giving up autoswitching in exchange for an increase in image quality.

Some variants of the SB7735 do have the +5v issue too, you may want to consider modding it too.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:27 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 178
You can also just use the SB7735 without power which turns it into a SB7725 :P


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:48 pm 



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Posts: 797
I have 3x SB7735 passing through a 3 port Bandridge switch and they are plenty bright and sharp. I didn't watch the video, but I can't imagine the difference would be anything to worry about. I'm still looking for another SB7735 for about half that EBAY auction price.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:03 pm 


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It depends how you're using it. In the video, the side-by-side shows the difference in sharpness is not trivial. But if you're feeding it to a CRT, or to something using per-pixel sampling, that might hide the difference entirely. Using generic sampling, you might notice it. If the reduction in sharpness is cumulative going through multiple switches, it could add up to quite a significant reduction in sharpness. Here are their side-by-sides:

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:37 pm 



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So after a month or so this thing is still OOS.

How many times has stock been replenished since launch?

At least all went to legitimate use, none on ebay either.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:18 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
It depends how you're using it. In the video, the side-by-side shows the difference in sharpness is not trivial. But if you're feeding it to a CRT, or to something using per-pixel sampling, that might hide the difference entirely. Using generic sampling, you might notice it. If the reduction in sharpness is cumulative going through multiple switches, it could add up to quite a significant reduction in sharpness. Here are their side-by-sides:

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image


I'll really need to get in close to the screen to check that out!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:14 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
It depends how you're using it. In the video, the side-by-side shows the difference in sharpness is not trivial. But if you're feeding it to a CRT, or to something using per-pixel sampling, that might hide the difference entirely. Using generic sampling, you might notice it. If the reduction in sharpness is cumulative going through multiple switches, it could add up to quite a significant reduction in sharpness. Here are their side-by-sides:

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image



That SB7725 looks really close to a direct conenction, I may have to pick one of these up as I'm currently just plugging/unplugging my consoles as I use them.

neorichieb1971 wrote:
So after a month or so this thing is still OOS.

How many times has stock been replenished since launch?

At least all went to legitimate use, none on ebay either.



There have been some on ebay, I think they sold for more than double the original price. I don't think there's been a restock yet, I've been checking every day and checking Mike Chi's Twitter.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:23 pm 


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I got my 5X Pro back today and everything works. Looks like it was just some buggy firmware.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:03 pm 



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incrediblehark wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
It depends how you're using it. In the video, the side-by-side shows the difference in sharpness is not trivial. But if you're feeding it to a CRT, or to something using per-pixel sampling, that might hide the difference entirely. Using generic sampling, you might notice it. If the reduction in sharpness is cumulative going through multiple switches, it could add up to quite a significant reduction in sharpness. Here are their side-by-sides:

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image



That SB7725 looks really close to a direct conenction, I may have to pick one of these up as I'm currently just plugging/unplugging my consoles as I use them.

neorichieb1971 wrote:
So after a month or so this thing is still OOS.

How many times has stock been replenished since launch?

At least all went to legitimate use, none on ebay either.



There have been some on ebay, I think they sold for more than double the original price. I don't think there's been a restock yet, I've been checking every day and checking Mike Chi's Twitter.


I did check sold listings, some ridiculous prices on there.

I Can't imagine those listings were for people who really wanted the item, rather than sell it for a profit.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:49 pm 


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I dunno. If someone is willing to pay that when there will be new devices within a month or so, they are either desperate or they just deserve the price hike.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:18 pm 



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The next batch is currently being programmed at the factory. We were able to stock up (while being semi-scalped ourselves) on key parts at the beginning of the year, so despite the chip shortage we're hoping to have relatively stable production and supply into the foreseeable future. Hopefully that means no more scalping.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:42 pm 


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Awesome news, thanks for the update! Sounds like it wont be too long now before they are back in stock.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:49 pm 



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mikechi2 wrote:
The next batch is currently being programmed at the factory. We were able to stock up (while being semi-scalped ourselves) on key parts at the beginning of the year, so despite the chip shortage we're hoping to have relatively stable production and supply into the foreseeable future. Hopefully that means no more scalping.


That's good to know. I still have nightmares back when the Super NT was restocked and I clicked order the moment it popped up only to end up in a 15 minute que and find out everything was sold out. I am hoping this doesn't become a repeat scenario when the 5x is back.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:43 am 


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Anyone with an RGB modded SNES Jr notice faint jailbars on certain sold colors on their 5X? Mine don't appear extreme, but they are there and now I can't unsee them. My SNES Jr looks perfect through my OSSC (Generic and optimal timings) and through my Framemeister when I owned it. It doesn't matter what resolution, LPF settings or timing settings I use on the 5X. I have tried 4 sets of scart cables, all from Retro Access and Retro Gaming Cables UK both Luma Sync and C-Sync. I feel like I remember someone on Twitter saying he had some noise on his SNES but I can't remember the details. Like I said, it doesn't ruin the picture, but once I've noticed it, I can't not notice it. All of my other consoles look terrific! I'd assume the 5X is just so good at outputting such a clean signal that the bars are noticeable now? Idk, I don't think I've ever seen jailbars or heard people mention them on an SNES console.


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