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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:26 pm 



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 80
Guspaz wrote:
bahamutfan64 wrote:
Hi Mike,

I had a strange issue with a Neo Geo RGB bypass mod I performed on a client's AES3-3 system - I followed FirebrandX's instructions as available here: http://www.firebrandx.com/aes3-3-3-4rgbbypass.html. We did not modify their CSYNC cable from Insurrection Industries.

On my OSSC the image looked great - I had used FirebrandX's profile to dial everything in without an issues.

On their 5X Pro however, the horizontal sampling was really off, regardless of the selected profile, resulting in a really blurry image with lots of interference/noise. In fact, every so often for a second or two the sampling will hold, resulting in a sharp image, before going awry again.

We can certainly undo the RGB bypass and restore everything to stock, but I just wasn't sure if this issue had been reported to you before.

Thanks!


Has your client updated the firmware? There were specific updates for the NEOGEO in v1.2: https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotin ... re-updates


Yup, they had applied the latest firmware update.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:56 pm 


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Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 189
Location: Salem OR
Josh128 wrote:
Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:
It would make me interested in the rt5x but this has already been addressed before regarding 1080i(and totally blown out of proportion) but didn't see any mention of 540p.

Would be a nice feature indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:29 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
mikechi2 wrote:
Probably yes. I know about the aspect ratio signaling in the video blank, but I honestly have never gotten it to work before on any TV I owned and I'm not sure how reliably consoles actually output this flag.

Even if you don't have a TV that supports WSS, it seems simple enough to check for WSS signaling with a scope? As far as I know, nobody has documented anywhere which consoles, if any, output a proper WSS signal. You could even grab a bunch of cheap throwaway DVD/Blu-ray players of different brands from like Goodwill or whatever and check for WSS on their analog outputs.

Speaking of newer consoles and HD resolutions, do any of the consoles do proper 601/709 switching for 480i/480p vs 720p/1080i/1080p? I think they may all be either 601 or 709 and just (incorrectly) output the same colors across all the resolutions? I don't think anybody has documented this publicly anywhere, at least for multiple consoles, all in one place.

It would also be cool to see which of the NTSC-U console models support the proper on-spec IRE 7.5 setup pedestal of NTSC. Supposedly all Japanese game consoles pre-1995-ish(?) are NTSC-J style IRE 0.0 (along with D93/9300K white point and NTSC 1953 color primaries), but I'm not sure if that got fixed for anything newer like the PS2/PS3. I do know, however, that the Xbox OG/360 supposedly have proper IRE 7.5 with D65 white and SMPTE C primaries.

What I'm saying is it would be awesome to see some technical blog posts like this on the RetroTINK web site. :)

mikechi2 wrote:
The SCART pin is not wired though. I don't trust what might be wired up in a random SCART cable, so thought it'd be safer to leave out.

Not too surprising. That said, it seems simple enough to do some kind of 1-bit high/low AR switching circuit that's basically a voltage protection/clamping circuit that goes high on the output side if there's ~5 Vdc coming in. Something for the next one I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:52 pm 


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Pretty sure the original xbox does the 601/709 thing correctly


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:13 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 255
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
It would also be cool to see which of the NTSC-U console models support the proper on-spec IRE 7.5 setup pedestal of NTSC. Supposedly all Japanese game consoles pre-1995-ish(?) are NTSC-J style IRE 0.0 (along with D93/9300K white point and NTSC 1953 color primaries), but I'm not sure if that got fixed for anything newer like the PS2/PS3. I do know, however, that the Xbox OG/360 supposedly have proper IRE 7.5 with D65 white and SMPTE C primaries.

The video outputs of consoles don't intrinsically have a fixed white point or set of colour primaries. We know what intensity red, green and blue respectively should be (assuming RGB output), but not what that's relative to. The only way to know that is to go back and look at what monitors were used in development (and they almost certainly wouldn't have had 1953 NTSC primaries).

Rec. 601/709 issues are caused by a mismatch in YCbCr encoding/decoding luma coefficients rather than any difference in colour primaries.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:18 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
ross wrote:
The video outputs of consoles don't intrinsically have a fixed white point or set of colour primaries. We know what intensity red, green and blue respectively should be (assuming RGB output), but not what that's relative to. The only way to know that is to go back and look at what monitors were used in development (and they almost certainly wouldn't have had 1953 NTSC primaries).

For encoded NTSC, legacy NTSC-J was IRE 0.0 + 9300K + 1953 for color, which is all spelled out in Rec. ITU-R BT.470-6 (do a keyword search on "Japan" for technical footnotes throughout the document). Wikipedia also has a nice summary with some historical context.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Colorimetry
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/re ... !PDF-E.pdf

I discussed this at length some time back with the guy who is rewriting OBS Studio's color handling and things like Zelda on the NES definitely had colors that looked a lot more "as the artist indented" once you applied IRE 0.0 + 9300K + 1953 to the NTSC decoding.

Any vaguely modern piece of consumer electronics sold in the West seems hard-coded for D65 170M on NTSC with no provision at all for NTSC-J's color, near as I can tell (I'd like to be wrong on this...). As far as I know, the only way to see NTSC-J rendered correctly on original hardware outside of Japan is if you have a PVM/BVM old enough to have a 9300K/6500K switch on the back. Interestingly, 15 khz arcade monitors are 9300K and I'm pretty sure 1953 color as well (it would be interesting to test if more modern tri-sync arcade monitors were still like this... I'm pretty sure they are). If the colors seem off on some cores in MAME, it's probably because there's no color conversion to D65 170M or PC-style sRGB.

You'll see this kind of disconnect with things why the black levels are jacked up on DV tapes:
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/tech ... setup.html

Supposedly the Japanese game consoles did eventually adopt Western-style NTSC at some point, but it's just a question of when and which consoles. PS2? N64?

ross wrote:
Rec. 601/709 issues are caused by a mismatch in YCbCr encoding/decoding luma coefficients rather than any difference in colour primaries.

Right, but my worry is if things like GT5 on the PS2 in 1080i mode or Soul Calibur II on Xbox in 720p would correctly switch to 709 instead of staying with SD's 601 color. If the display is expecting 709 color information because of the HD resolution, but receives 601 color data, the color presentation on the display will be incorrect.


Last edited by energizerfellow‌ on Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:56 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1513
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
As far as I know, the only way to see NTSC-J rendered correctly on original hardware outside of Japan is if you have a PVM/BVM old enough to have a 9300K/6500K switch on the back.


It doesn't need to be old, you can just calibrate any given temperature profile to the D95 target. And you can do that with any display. And once you have a reference you can even just eyeball other monitors against if you're OK with it not being super precise (as most people's TVs in Japan obviously must have been).
When it comes to Rec. 601 it's a bit of a different matter though, only some pro monitors as far as I know can emulate the Rec. 601 color space, but on the other hand all you need is a video processor, hardware or software, to convert the 601 colors into whatever color matrix your monitor supports.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:26 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
fernan1234 wrote:
It doesn't need to be old, you can just calibrate any given temperature profile to the D95 target. And you can do that with any display. And once you have a reference you can even just eyeball other monitors against if you're OK with it not being super precise (as most people's TVs in Japan obviously must have been).

Yeah, you can do it with a standalone video processor or a display high-end enough to support uploading LUTs directly to the monitor itself. I was thinking more along the lines of some built-in menu setting or autodetect on a cheap consumer TV you bought at Best Buy or whatever.

Admittedly it's been a few years, but last I looked, PC monitors with built-in hardware LUTs started around ~$1K USD. For consumer TVs, as far as I know, you need to buy Calman, a colormeter, and a higher-end Calman-supported display from LG/Panasonic/Samung/Sony (Are there any consumer TV you can upload a LUT to without paying $150+ for Calman?).

fernan1234 wrote:
When it comes to Rec. 601 it's a bit of a different matter though, only some pro monitors as far as I know can emulate the Rec. 601 color space, but on the other hand all you need is a video processor, hardware or software, to convert the 601 colors into whatever color matrix your monitor supports.

Are there any consumer-priced processors on the market with D93+1953 -> D65+170M conversion?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:03 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1513
I actually would bet there's no processor that can do a conversion of the whole combo of white point and color space at once. The best you can probably do is something that does the color conversion if needed, and then switch to a color temperature profile that matches the source.

If color temp is really important you'll need to recalibrate the white balance periodically. The old P/BVMs that have it built-in must have drifted a long time ago anyway, and even contemporary BVMs with factory calibrated profiles will drift after several months (though only to a level that might matter in actual video production, not really for gaming).

Oh and as far as pedestal is concerned, that only matters with NTSC/J signals (and not necessarily NTSC/J sources) like CVBS and S-video, but not RGB. I think YPbPrd component had some betacam thing that can be a mismatch, but that should not matter for game sources (never really looked into this so I could be way off). And all monitors I've seen with CVBS/YC inputs also have pedestal settings. Not TVs though.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:53 am 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 438
Small update on the whole Castlevania: Bloodlines (or other games that change horizontal resolutions) dropping signal on 1440p on my display and capture card. Didn't think to check 1200p but that appears to work just as well as the 1080p options. So I guess I'm rolling with that for the time being.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:42 am 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 255
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
I discussed this at length some time back with the guy who is rewriting OBS Studio's color handling and things like Zelda on the NES definitely had colors that looked a lot more "as the artist indented" once you applied IRE 0.0 + 9300K + 1953 to the NTSC decoding.

Any vaguely modern piece of consumer electronics sold in the West seems hard-coded for D65 170M on NTSC with no provision at all for NTSC-J's color, near as I can tell (I'd like to be wrong on this...). As far as I know, the only way to see NTSC-J rendered correctly on original hardware outside of Japan is if you have a PVM/BVM old enough to have a 9300K/6500K switch on the back. Interestingly, 15 khz arcade monitors are 9300K and I'm pretty sure 1953 color as well (it would be interesting to test if more modern tri-sync arcade monitors were still like this... I'm pretty sure they are). If the colors seem off on some cores in MAME, it's probably because there's no color conversion to D65 170M or PC-style sRGB.

Just for clarification, are you referring to a difference in the decoding matrix or phosphors?

The only set I know of that's guaranteed to have true 1953 phosphors and decoding is the 1954 RCA CT-100 with 15GP22. In terms of altering the matrix for US/Japan, you can do that in the service menu of a lot of consumer CRTs. The datasheet for the Sony-CXA2025AS specifically refers to a 'Japan axis' and 'US axis', though every manufacturer, and practically every NTSC decoder within manufacturers, had a different idea of what these matrices should be. You'll find a lot of people messing with these settings to reduce the so-called red push on Trinitrons.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:42 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 184
Josh128 wrote:
Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:


Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:53 pm 


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Loving the last update mikechi2!! (1.24)

I am extremely happy with the product right now, as a lot of issues have been solved :D

The new adjustable low pass filter works like a charm! Adjusting it to Medium cleans the signal and solves all my issues with my RGB N64 losing the optimal H. Sampling. Now it's locked and looks amazing all the time without losing the optimal sampling. This console never looked that good!

Also, the new Strong setting for the low pass filter is cleaning the image on the most "dirty" consoles/situations, it absolutely removes the jail bars on my old dirty non 1 chip Super Famicom, the colors look ultra plain and clean. And at 1440p, I'm not loosing nearly any sharpness! This setting is amazing for these kind of situations.

No more color issues with the scanlines, and loving the new 25% setting for a lot of situations where even 50% looked a bit too dark. I think this is my new favourite scanlines level now.

The DTV 858 sampling in 1440p mode looks increeedible! No reason to leave 1440p now again :mrgreen:

And also, loving the possibilty of adding 480p-style scanlines when using 480i deinterlaced sources, looks just almost as if it was 480p on a 31Khz monitor 8)

To me this firmware leaves the Tink 5x in a nice and well polished state for all the (to this day) included features. Nice work! :D Super happy :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:01 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 184
Linkr2 wrote:
Loving the last update mikechi2!! (1.24)

I am extremely happy with the product right now, as a lot of issues have been solved :D

The new adjustable low pass filter works like a charm! Adjusting it to Medium cleans the signal and solves all my issues with my RGB N64 losing the optimal H. Sampling. Now it's locked and looks amazing all the time without losing the optimal sampling. This console never looked that good!

Also, the new Strong setting for the low pass filter is cleaning the image on the most "dirty" consoles/situations, it absolutely removes the jail bars on my old dirty non 1 chip Super Famicom, the colors look ultra plain and clean. And at 1440p, I'm not loosing nearly any sharpness! This setting is amazing for these kind of situations.

No more color issues with the scanlines, and loving the new 25% setting for a lot of situations where even 50% looked a bit too dark. I think this is my new favourite scanlines level now.

The DTV 858 sampling in 1440p mode looks increeedible! No reason to leave 1440p now again :mrgreen:

And also, loving the possibilty of adding 480p-style scanlines when using 480i deinterlaced sources, looks just almost as if it was 480p on a 31Khz monitor 8)

To me this firmware leaves the Tink 5x in a nice and well polished state for all the (to this day) included features. Nice work! :D Super happy :mrgreen:


Thank you so much for giving the new firmware a run through and really glad to hear that!!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:30 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!

I wonder if dropping legacy compatibility things like 540p, 768p, and 1080i into a separate menu like "Legacy fixes" or whatever would work. Or have an enable/disable option for "extended resolutions" or something like that?

mikechi2 wrote:
Thank you so much for giving the new firmware a run through and really glad to hear that!!

Awesome work as always, man. Seriously. :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:38 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
ross wrote:
The only set I know of that's guaranteed to have true 1953 phosphors and decoding is the 1954 RCA CT-100 with 15GP22. In terms of altering the matrix for US/Japan, you can do that in the service menu of a lot of consumer CRTs. The datasheet for the Sony-CXA2025AS specifically refers to a 'Japan axis' and 'US axis', though every manufacturer, and practically every NTSC decoder within manufacturers, had a different idea of what these matrices should be. You'll find a lot of people messing with these settings to reduce the so-called red push on Trinitrons.

Yeah, the tube glass itself would have been rare earth SMPTE C (and later SMPTE RP 145) up in PVM/BVM land and regular P22 on consumer stuff, near as I can tell, for Japanese TV displays. This should align with SMPTE 170M, for matrix, transfer, and primaries, right? Just with a D93 white point adjustment.

That said, you get things like this from ITU-R BT.470-6:
Quote:
1 - In 1953, when the NTSC colour television system was adopted for transmission in the United States of
America, the colorimetry of the system was based on three specific primary colours and a reference white. The
coordinates of the primaries were (the coordinates are given in the CIE system (1931)):
Red: x = 0.67 y = 0.33
Green: x = 0.21 y = 0.71
Blue: x = 0.14 y = 0.08.
The reference white chosen was standard:
White C: x = 0.310 y = 0.316.

6 - In Japan, the colorimetry of the system is based upon the primary chromaticities and white point given in § 1.
Studio monitors are adjusted to a white point of D, 9 300 K.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:05 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 255
Japanese studio monitors typically used EBU phosphors, same as those used in European monitors.

I'm not sure how much of this matters considering consumer sets differed from standards by a lot in some areas and were what almost everyone including the original devs most likely saw those games on.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:12 pm 



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I've always felt like the ideal for old games (almost all Japanese) is a white point somewhere around the mid point between D65 and D93. In fact that's the kind of "white" that feels most natural to my eyes regardless of content type. But the experts choose some arbitrary time of the day somewhere on earth as the standard for white, to me it's still way too yellow (and D93 is too blue).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:18 pm 


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...


Last edited by Josh128 on Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:44 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:

Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


Hey man, we appreciate you! The level of interaction you have given us end users is unprecedented and super commendable! About the 1080i and 540p outputs, Im sure the overwhelming consensus among the community would be for the 540p option. This would enable lag-free scaling of 480p and 240p sources on XBR/High Scan units. About the number of available resolutions, I say (and Im sure this speaks for most of us here at shmups) the more the merrier. I was one of the 768p guys and let me tell you, the mode works perfectly on my F4500 plasmas. Its phenomenal.

So while I do understand there is always someone who is going to complain about something, no matter what you do, I and many others strongly feel the 540p mode would be an awesome addition. Lets just say you would choose to add it-- you could, if you wanted, make a separate firmware available containing that mode, downloadable at your site. That way, those who want to complain about "too many great options" could just stick to the original firmware and thus have less to gripe about. :mrgreen:

rezb1t wrote:
eightbitminiboss wrote:
eightbitminiboss wrote:
Question for anyone using 1440p output. Are you getting signal dropouts during the boot up sequence for Castlevania: Bloodlines (TMSS, copyright screen, SEGA logo, Konami logo) and after character selection and map screen on the Genesis/Mega Drive on SCART (don't know if this affects HDRV cables, don't use 'em)? It seems to happen for both my display (LG 27GL83A) and capture card (Avermedia Live Gamer 4K). Doesn't appear to happen on the 1080p options. A quirk of it being 1920x1440 perhaps that neither device likes or just how the console processes video?


Loaded up the game on the MiSTer, I see what it's doing now. It's flipping between 320 and 256 on the horizontal. So it's just how the game is. Any possibility that this be could be smoothed out on 1440p since it appears to not be that much of an issue on 1080p, Mike?

I see this on my 1440p LG monitor as well, model 32QN600-B.


Same here guys, using a 32QN600-B as well. Noticed a couple extra caveats about the issue:

1.) After manually switching output resolutions (or horizontal sampling - dont exactly recall which did it) a few times, I was able to get the 5X to completely stop the re-sync/black screen behavior. Once it stopped, I was able to let the title screen loop play over and over and it was seamless.

2.) When the black screens/re-syncs were occuring (title screen images/cinematics) I noticed the horizontal sampling was off, i.e. there was shimmer on horizontally scrolling graphics. Even on the still title screen, you could clearly see uneven width pixels. While this behavior persisted on the title and cinematic screens, once in game, the horizontal sampling was always perfect, whether in generic 4:3 or Genesis mode.

3.) Once I got the 5X "locked on" (see 1 above), the horizontal sampling was also perfect, whether on the title screen, cinematics, or in game.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:40 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:


Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


Exciting news! I'm picking up a 40XBR800 tomorrow afternoon in anticipation for a mode like this. Being on the fence for which of the big 3 new scalers to get, if I'm able to get a 5x pro in the next order window a 540p mode will make it a must buy. Thank you for putting in the time and effort to address all of the requests with your firmware updates.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:56 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


I appreciate the addition of extra features, but many of them aren't supported on my display, making it difficult to go between modes that are supported, as it requires me to "wait and see" if my video chain re-syncs back up for 5-10 seconds every time I press the button. I wonder if there's a different behavior for this menu that would be a more pleasant experience, perhaps by letting the user select and choose a mode without having to actually switch through each individual one as they're browsing through?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:59 pm 


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darcagn wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


I appreciate the addition of extra features, but many of them aren't supported on my display, making it difficult to go between modes that are supported, as it requires me to "wait and see" if my video chain re-syncs back up for 5-10 seconds every time I press the button. I wonder if there's a different behavior for this menu that would be a more pleasant experience, perhaps by letting the user select and choose a mode without having to actually switch through each individual one as they're browsing through?


This,

Maybe most people are not changing output resolutions very often, but I think it would be pretty useful to be able to cycle through the output options first, then actually change the output when you select one.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:53 pm 


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^^
It would be convenient for sure, I definitely agree there, but if I had to choose between getting 540p mode w/ menu as is vs Mike not implementing it at all because it would require a reworking of the entire menu system, I'd definitely choose just getting the mode.

Not to change the discussion but heres a couple shots of my KV36HS420 running through 5X Pro in 480p mode. Ive included these and a few additional ones in the Hi-Scan thread. Looks fantastic with one caveat-- I believe the sets scaling of 480p is ever so slightly off, because when using polyphase 90% or full integer scanlines, there are visible brightness variations on the screen, most visible on solid color screens. Its almost un-noticable in game, but once you see it, well, you know. I tried adjusting vertical size and linearity but neither seemed to affect the areas where the scanlines are compressed a bit, which makes me think that the set is just not scaling the 480p input perfectly in its 960i or 540p or whatever the heck size frame its displaying. I think a true 540p mode would eliminate that issue. Also, good news in that 240p games feel amazingly fast compared to native, even with the 1 frame of set lag + the quarter frame of RT5X lag.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:26 pm 


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Location: Salem OR
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:


Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!
Would a 1080p to 540p Downscale be possible?

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:25 am 


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Posts: 198
darcagn wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


I appreciate the addition of extra features, but many of them aren't supported on my display, making it difficult to go between modes that are supported, as it requires me to "wait and see" if my video chain re-syncs back up for 5-10 seconds every time I press the button. I wonder if there's a different behavior for this menu that would be a more pleasant experience, perhaps by letting the user select and choose a mode without having to actually switch through each individual one as they're browsing through?


A drop down menu like the OSSC added through firmware would be great. I know multiple people have mentioned this to Mike. That's one of my most wanted things.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:38 pm 


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New firmware is out. Finally, 25% scanlines!

https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotin ... re-updates


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:39 pm 



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 57
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:


Josh - 540p is possible without too much fuss, but 1080i is a bigger rework of the timing generation. The main thing is that I've already received complaints about too many resolutions with the addition of 720p/768p but whatever... LOL.

Appreciate you (and the 768p guys) asking in a reasonable manner!


I would also like this. I have a really low hour 27" HDCRT that is...perfect. Tested lagless in 1080i. The thing looks gorgeous and it internally converts everything to 1080i in a not-so-good manner. If we can get that added it'd make that TV useful, ha. I could take it off of my parents hands.

540p I am not sure how the TV handles that. Never tested it but curious how it looks/performs vs sending the TV 1080i.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:46 pm 



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 57
Josh128 wrote:
^^
It would be convenient for sure, I definitely agree there, but if I had to choose between getting 540p mode w/ menu as is vs Mike not implementing it at all because it would require a reworking of the entire menu system, I'd definitely choose just getting the mode.

Not to change the discussion but heres a couple shots of my KV36HS420 running through 5X Pro in 480p mode. Ive included these and a few additional ones in the Hi-Scan thread. Looks fantastic with one caveat-- I believe the sets scaling of 480p is ever so slightly off, because when using polyphase 90% or full integer scanlines, there are visible brightness variations on the screen, most visible on solid color screens. Its almost un-noticable in game, but once you see it, well, you know. I tried adjusting vertical size and linearity but neither seemed to affect the areas where the scanlines are compressed a bit, which makes me think that the set is just not scaling the 480p input perfectly in its 960i or 540p or whatever the heck size frame its displaying. I think a true 540p mode would eliminate that issue. Also, good news in that 240p games feel amazingly fast compared to native, even with the 1 frame of set lag + the quarter frame of RT5X lag.


Image
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Image
Full Size


I used the 27" version of this TV for Gamecube and Xbox 480p back in the day. They don't handle 480p the best, unfortunately. It's the only reason I have the TV still sitting in my parents spare room and not at my house. It also treats 240p as 480i. VHS tapes, however, look absolutely amazing on that thing. One of the best TVs ever for 480i content (including PS2). If a firmware gets done I'd be curious to see your findings. It'd be nice if we could somehow make these TVs lagless and mimic almost exactly what 240p games look like on a SD CRT. These HD ones are the newest consumer CRTs around and they are stupid cheap comparatively because no one wants them for retro gaming. It'd be great to have a device that makes them the preferred CRT for many (still no lightgun games)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:00 pm 


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Posts: 1381
PearlJammzz wrote:
If a firmware gets done I'd be curious to see your findings. It'd be nice if we could somehow make these TVs lagless and mimic almost exactly what 240p games look like on a SD CRT. These HD ones are the newest consumer CRTs around and they are stupid cheap comparatively because no one wants them for retro gaming. It'd be great to have a device that makes them the preferred CRT for many (still no lightgun games)


In a lagless framelocked 540p mode, theres a good chance lightgun games would work. It'd be something we need to test.

BTW, Mike just released another new firmware! Looks like some cool additional scanline, sampling, and LPF features. The guys on fire, he is quickly making this unit an absolute must-have. Fingers crossed for the 540p output mode someday!!

Quote:
Version History


June 5th, 2021

Version 1.24
Download Here

SDTV LPF has now four settings: Off/Light/Medium/Strong.

DTV 858 Optimal Sampling for 480p sources is now enabled for 1440p output modes. Please set your display to "16:9" for the correct final aspect ratio.

Scanline generator now has 25%, 50%, 80% and 100% (integer) modes.

480p style scanlines can be applied to de-interlaced 480i content.


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