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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:31 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 503
Josh128 wrote:
I can only imagine the reason is that GC actually outputs 448 active lines and not true 480 active lines. If thats the case, and I believe it is, this is as good as vertical scaling gets-- 2 monitor lines per 480p active line and 1 monitor line for each blank line. The end result is perfect CRT 480p look.


https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.p ... ility_List


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 am 


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The Retrotink 5x outputs 1920x1440p which is indeed a 4:3 resolution, that’s why you are seeing this behavior, your monitor is probably misinterpreting it as 16:9, you need to either configure your monitor to “just scan” or “original” (depending on the brand) which will detect the proper aspect ratio, or you can directly force 4:3 and that would be it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 5:58 pm 


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On my LG 27GL850, the path to the aspect ratio settings is Settings -> Input -> Aspect Ratio -> Original


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:02 pm 


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Linkr2 wrote:
The Retrotink 5x outputs 1920x1440p which is indeed a 4:3 resolution, that’s why you are seeing this behavior, your monitor is probably misinterpreting it as 16:9, you need to either configure your monitor to “just scan” or “original” (depending on the brand) which will detect the proper aspect ratio, or you can directly force 4:3 and that would be it.


I did find the options and with them I am now able to get 4:3 or 16:9 in 1440p output mode with 480p in. That said, regardless of the monitor setting I pick, it doesnt change the fact that there is something wrong with the RT5X aspect selection in the same modes mentioned above. For example-- when outputting 1440p, the aspect ratio displayed by the monitor doesnt change at all when switching between 16:9 and 4:3 modes, but works as its supposed to in 720p. This is the case no matter what aspect ratio setting I choose and exhibits the same behavior on my 1080p plasma or my smaller 1080p LG monitor.

You would think that no matter what output resolution is used, 16:9 and 4:3 modes would never be exactly the same image. Maybe there is some technical reasons as to why the aspect ratio sampling modes in 480p, 1440p, and 1080 Under dont work and they do in all other modes. Note I only tested this with GC 480p, but I did confirm the same issue on 3 different displays. Maybe Mike can speak on this.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:31 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1520
Josh128 wrote:
You would think that no matter what output resolution is used, 16:9 and 4:3 modes would never be exactly the same image.


I'm thinking that this has to do with the fact that really all of those retro systems with "widescreen" modes are just the old anamorphic trick, where more picture is squeezed into the "4:3" frame with the expectation that the display would stretch it out to 16:9.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:55 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 195
Josh128 wrote:
The RT5X Pro appears to do that properly and switch between 16:9 and 4:3 sampling modes in some output resolutions and does not work properly in others.

Does the RetroTINK 5X-Pro implement Widescreen Signaling (WSS) detection at all (ideally for automatic output resolution control)? Seems like it doesn't? Pretty sure at least the Xbox supported WSS, along with Sony's widescreen displays, including CRTs.

More info:
https://www.renesas.com/br/zh/document/ ... naling-wss
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/re ... !PDF-E.pdf
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_i_ets ... 94e01p.pdf

Is there any technical reason why full-resolution 16:9 outputs aren't used or switchable across all resolutions? FPGA limitations? 4:3 data in a 16:9 container, basically.

Also, what's the color space situation? I'm assuming the 5X-Pro is 709 for anything >480p/576p, input-side, but what about the output? It is always in 709 for output? Does it switch back to 601 for lower resolutions on the output?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:33 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 660
fernan1234 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
You would think that no matter what output resolution is used, 16:9 and 4:3 modes would never be exactly the same image.


I'm thinking that this has to do with the fact that really all of those retro systems with "widescreen" modes are just the old anamorphic trick, where more picture is squeezed into the "4:3" frame with the expectation that the display would stretch it out to 16:9.


This is most likely the case. Back in ye olde days of gaming, consoles (and even the TVs, really) just kinda made everything up as they went. Anamorphic was a fairly standard thing, though, and it definitely requires you to set the display to widescreen to work as you are not actually outputting any more pixels, just narrower pixels (AFAIK).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:42 pm 


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I’m not sure if this has been brought up.

What’s the possibility of displaying line doubled 240p (480p) inside of a 540p framed target resolution on this device?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:49 pm 


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many devices can do that. Something like the Extron 301 is about $100 from ebay. You can create a custom output resolution and you can exactly size your input canvas inside that output res.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:52 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
many devices can do that. Something like the Extron 301 is about $100 from ebay. You can create a custom output resolution and you can exactly size your input canvas inside that output res.


Does that add to the input delay?

That sounds awesome if that’s the device you would recommend.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:07 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1520
Hoagtech wrote:
Does that add to the input delay?


Should be at least a full frame worth of delay at a minimum since the converter buffers the output. But that will still be equal if not better to whatever your HD CRT does (which is what I'm guessing you want the 540p frame). That said, the models that have HDMI inputs will only add the same amount of delay for 480p inputs, and probably the same for DVI ones, so it wouldn't be of any benefit to use something like that (just avoid using the analogue inputs on those TVs).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:16 pm 


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yes, it's exactly one frame. Quite alright if your initial processing is through an OSSC and the display doesn't add a lot.

The 301 is quite easy to use, but the initial adding of a custom output resolution is a bit of a pain. Still my full recommendation, if you can grab a cheap one.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:56 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
You would think that no matter what output resolution is used, 16:9 and 4:3 modes would never be exactly the same image.


I'm thinking that this has to do with the fact that really all of those retro systems with "widescreen" modes are just the old anamorphic trick, where more picture is squeezed into the "4:3" frame with the expectation that the display would stretch it out to 16:9.


This is most likely the case. Back in ye olde days of gaming, consoles (and even the TVs, really) just kinda made everything up as they went. Anamorphic was a fairly standard thing, though, and it definitely requires you to set the display to widescreen to work as you are not actually outputting any more pixels, just narrower pixels (AFAIK).


What is the recommended way to setup the few widescreen mode games that exist for the PS2? I've tried 'Generic 16:9' on the RT5x but it still looks stretched horizontally.
I've tried 4:3 and setting the options on the TV but it does not seem to change anything (maybe these settings don't work on a 1080p signal?)

Or just forget about these anamorphic widescreen modes?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:22 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1520
djc5166 wrote:
What is the recommended way to setup the few widescreen mode games that exist for the PS2? I've tried 'Generic 16:9' on the RT5x but it still looks stretched horizontally.
I've tried 4:3 and setting the options on the TV but it does not seem to change anything (maybe these settings don't work on a 1080p signal?)

Or just forget about these anamorphic widescreen modes?


This is gonna be tricky because I can totally see a lot of TVs and monitors not even being able to stretch a 1080p or HD input, which they just assume has to be a 16:9 picture, so the approach to anamorphic widescreen games may need to be reworked on the scaler.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:04 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
djc5166 wrote:
What is the recommended way to setup the few widescreen mode games that exist for the PS2? I've tried 'Generic 16:9' on the RT5x but it still looks stretched horizontally.
I've tried 4:3 and setting the options on the TV but it does not seem to change anything (maybe these settings don't work on a 1080p signal?)

Or just forget about these anamorphic widescreen modes?


This is gonna be tricky because I can totally see a lot of TVs and monitors not even being able to stretch a 1080p or HD input, which they just assume has to be a 16:9 picture, so the approach to anamorphic widescreen games may need to be reworked on the scaler.


Yea that was my first thought, at least my B7 doesn't seem to be able to stretch/squish 1080p or higher, they probably thought you would never want to do that. That has probably really not come up before.

I don't really remember if/how the other scalars (OSSC, FM, GBSC) handle it, it's been awhile since I've had them connected.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:03 pm 


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Quote:

What is the recommended way to setup the few widescreen mode games that exist for the PS2? I've tried 'Generic 16:9' on the RT5x but it still looks stretched horizontally.
I've tried 4:3 and setting the options on the TV but it does not seem to change anything (maybe these settings don't work on a 1080p signal?)

Or just forget about these anamorphic widescreen modes?


Pay attention to what I posted above regarding output resolutions and which ones work with 4:3 or 16:9 sampling modes and which ones don't. See if my results are true for you as well. I'm on the newest firmware. I'm going to assume this is an issue that needs to be addressed until Mike chimes in and explains otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:04 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 186
This is not an issue, it is working as intended.

480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.
Same logic for 1920 x 1440.

1080p (under) is an integer scale of 2x to 1440 x 960 intended for pixel perfect capture.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:10 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 186
neorichieb1971 wrote:
I thought this device was plug n play.

It certainly has crept into the "change this setting" "change that setting" type of device.

I guess Mike Chi listened too much to the people that want a gazillion options in one box.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:58 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 660
mikechi2 wrote:
This is not an issue, it is working as intended.

480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.
Same logic for 1920 x 1440.

1080p (under) is an integer scale of 2x to 1440 x 960 intended for pixel perfect capture.


Perhaps a useful way to think about it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Generic 4:3 and Generic 16:9 modes refer to how the RT5x should sample the input; it's the modes like 1080p (under) and such that affect the output. The input sampling is really just there to help you get the correct sharpness and all that, not the correct aspect ratio. As Mike points out, aspect ratio is all handled by the TV.

Now, it could be cool if there were also "stretched" output settings and if using the 16:9 sampling modes would automatically change the output setting, too, so that I don't have to mess with TV settings. But that might be asking a lot. I'll say that I have generally just given up on the idea of playing any retro games in 16:9 because it's just too annoying to have to change settings around for it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:33 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
This is not an issue, it is working as intended.

480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.
Same logic for 1920 x 1440.

1080p (under) is an integer scale of 2x to 1440 x 960 intended for pixel perfect capture.


Thanks for the clarification Mike. As mentioned earlier, I was able to get the proper picture by adjusting the aspect ratio on the monitor, was just confused by the 4:3 and 16:9 sampling modes seemingly producing their respective aspects in some output resolutions and not changing in others.


Last edited by Josh128 on Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:44 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
This is not an issue, it is working as intended.

480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.
Same logic for 1920 x 1440.

1080p (under) is an integer scale of 2x to 1440 x 960 intended for pixel perfect capture.


Perhaps a useful way to think about it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Generic 4:3 and Generic 16:9 modes refer to how the RT5x should sample the input; it's the modes like 1080p (under) and such that affect the output. The input sampling is really just there to help you get the correct sharpness and all that, not the correct aspect ratio. As Mike points out, aspect ratio is all handled by the TV.

Now, it could be cool if there were also "stretched" output settings and if using the 16:9 sampling modes would automatically change the output setting, too, so that I don't have to mess with TV settings. But that might be asking a lot. I'll say that I have generally just given up on the idea of playing any retro games in 16:9 because it's just too annoying to have to change settings around for it.


I don't think my TV would let me change the AR for a 1080p signal. I will have to try again.

Maybe its just some TVs and/or some resolutions.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:48 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 195
mikechi2 wrote:
480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.

True sampling-wise, but what end-users were hoping for, near as I can tell, was widescreen signaling detection (aka ITU-R BT.1119-2 / EN 300 294 / JEITA CPX-1204) where the 5X-Pro would automatically change the post-scaling output-side horizontal scaling and/or resolution between 4:3 and 16:9, depending on the WSS waveform coming in (or not coming in...). Is the analog front-end of the 5X-Pro capable of WSS waveform detection?

SCART also appears to have WSS via voltage variance on Pin 8 per EN 50049-1:1998 (~5 Vdc == 16:9 and ~0 Vdc or ~10 Vdc == 4:3?). Is pin 8 even wired up on the RetroTINK?


Last edited by energizerfellow‌ on Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:09 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 186
Josh128 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
This is not an issue, it is working as intended.

480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.
Same logic for 1920 x 1440.

1080p (under) is an integer scale of 2x to 1440 x 960 intended for pixel perfect capture.


Thanks for the clarification Mike. As mentioned earlier, I was able to get the proper picture by adjusting the aspect ratio on the monitor, was just confused by the 4:3 and 16:9 sampling modes seemingly producing there respective aspects in some output resolutions and not changing in others.


Np. 1080p/1200p/720p are 16:9 canvases by definition so the scaler can project the input analog signal into both formats. Because those resolutions are always 16:9, no further adjustments are needed on the display.

480p and 1440p rely on "anamorphic" compression so you need the set the ratio by hand on the display.

energizerfellow‌ wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.

True sampling-wise, but what end-users were hoping for, near as I can tell, was widescreen signaling detection (aka ITU-R BT.1119-2 / EN 300 294 / EIAJ CPX-1204) where the 5X-Pro would automatically change the post-scaling output-side horizontal scaling and/or resolution between 4:3 and 16:9, depending on the WSS waveform coming in (or not coming in...). Is the analog front-end of the 5X-Pro capable of WSS waveform detection?

SCART also appears to have WSS via voltage variance on Pin 8 per EN 50049-1:1998 (~5 Vdc == 16:9 and ~0 Vdc or ~10 Vdc == 4:3?). Is pin 8 even wired up on the RetroTINK?


Probably yes. I know about the aspect ratio signaling in the video blank, but I honestly have never gotten it to work before on any TV I owned and I'm not sure how reliably consoles actually output this flag.
The SCART pin is not wired though. I don't trust what might be wired up in a random SCART cable, so thought it'd be safer to leave out.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:29 pm 


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Mike, because Im sure you are probably bored/twittling your thumbs with nothing to do :mrgreen: , heres the latest "off in the weeds" feature request for some future update. 1080i and/or 540p output. This would enable lag free 480i and 240p gaming on all the early 2000s Sony XBR and Hi-Scan CRTs. Just FYI, if you ever decide to humor us such a feature, I have one of these sets and would gladly test any beta firmware for you. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:46 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 440
Just an edge case, but I wanted to just mention it. I don't expect a fix and I guess it's more of a PSA if you're one to play a lot of JRPGs.

For one reason or another, I wanted to see how SNES games with known issues on 1CHIP SNES systems would react on the TINK. Fortunately with 1080p(Over), you'll not notice most of the topmost scanline glitches (i.e., Aladdin, Demon's Crest, etc.). You could of course do the same with the Framemeister and its zoom function or with FBX's SNS5x profile for the same effect. However one game in particular seems to have different behavior from what I recall on the Framemeister compared to the TINK, Treasure of the Rudras/Rudra no Hihou.

On 1CHIP systems, text dialogue boxes have horizontal lines extending past the game screen and cause a slight warp at the top. On a Framemeister (from my recollection, I no longer have it), this didn't pose much of an issue. You could just zoom it and cut most of it out. Unfortunately on a RetroTINK 5X, there's behavior I haven't seen before. The warping is more extreme and causes screen shaking as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bghfDT4ebZo.

Since this is being played from a FXPak Pro, I enabled the 1CHIP Transient fixes introduced in FW 1.8.0 and it helped somewhat. It got rid of the screen shake but the top of the screen was a wavy mess but still in a way, better than dealing with the shaking. Of course, if you wanted to avoid the issue altogether, you could just as easily play on a non-1CHIP SNES. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:13 am 


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In case anyone was wondering if it worked, I did a quick try upscaling a medium res (384p/25khz) arcade game through the 5X Pro, and it does work, when using triple buffering.

My Panasonic OLED TV was able to show a picture in 720p mode, and 1080p (under) IIRC.
I was expecting 768p mode to work but my TV did not sync, neither did it with the other modes.

I didn't tweak anything else such as LPF etc so there might be ways to get better results.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:55 am 


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^
Thats something I had previously thought of but didnt try yet with my 768p plasma and 5X Pro- I'd love to see what Atari Seattle and other med res games look like in perfect 2x with and w/o scanlines.

If it works out I'd be curious to see how the resulting image compares to the look of the Makvision native 25KHz photos I have.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:29 pm 



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 80
Hi Mike,

I had a strange issue with a Neo Geo RGB bypass mod I performed on a client's AES3-3 system - I followed FirebrandX's instructions as available here: http://www.firebrandx.com/aes3-3-3-4rgbbypass.html. We did not modify their CSYNC cable from Insurrection Industries.

On my OSSC the image looked great - I had used FirebrandX's profile to dial everything in without an issues.

On their 5X Pro however, the horizontal sampling was really off, regardless of the selected profile, resulting in a really blurry image with lots of interference/noise. In fact, every so often for a second or two the sampling will hold, resulting in a sharp image, before going awry again.

We can certainly undo the RGB bypass and restore everything to stock, but I just wasn't sure if this issue had been reported to you before.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:31 pm 


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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
480p by standard is always 720 (1440) x 480 for both 4:3 and 16:9. You need to set the desired final aspect on your display.

True sampling-wise, but what end-users were hoping for, near as I can tell, was widescreen signaling detection (aka ITU-R BT.1119-2 / EN 300 294 / JEITA CPX-1204) where the 5X-Pro would automatically change the post-scaling output-side horizontal scaling and/or resolution between 4:3 and 16:9, depending on the WSS waveform coming in (or not coming in...). Is the analog front-end of the 5X-Pro capable of WSS waveform detection?

SCART also appears to have WSS via voltage variance on Pin 8 per EN 50049-1:1998 (~5 Vdc == 16:9 and ~0 Vdc or ~10 Vdc == 4:3?). Is pin 8 even wired up on the RetroTINK?


No matter the output resolution on the RT5x my LG B7 will not stretch the picture any further for PS2 in widescreen (it's already handling it as a 16:9 signal), granted I've only tried SC3. Am I doing something wrong? Is it just the TV?

Setting the TV to 4:3 super-squishes the image.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:57 pm 


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bahamutfan64 wrote:
Hi Mike,

I had a strange issue with a Neo Geo RGB bypass mod I performed on a client's AES3-3 system - I followed FirebrandX's instructions as available here: http://www.firebrandx.com/aes3-3-3-4rgbbypass.html. We did not modify their CSYNC cable from Insurrection Industries.

On my OSSC the image looked great - I had used FirebrandX's profile to dial everything in without an issues.

On their 5X Pro however, the horizontal sampling was really off, regardless of the selected profile, resulting in a really blurry image with lots of interference/noise. In fact, every so often for a second or two the sampling will hold, resulting in a sharp image, before going awry again.

We can certainly undo the RGB bypass and restore everything to stock, but I just wasn't sure if this issue had been reported to you before.

Thanks!


Has your client updated the firmware? There were specific updates for the NEOGEO in v1.2: https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotin ... re-updates


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