RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[Josh128]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

Also a 720p w scanlines in a 768p frame option please, for us XGA plasma and lcd set owners please!

[maxtherabbit]

Auto-phase selection is available for SNES/TG16 256, PS1 320, NEOGEO 320, N64 320, Saturn 320, Saturn 352 and PS1 384. All you need to do is select the base mode and the FPGA calculates the optimal phase.

That makes a lot more sense than the rumor I had previously heard here that it would automagically detect the pixel clock and divine the base mode

[strayan]

Also a 720p w scanlines in a 768p frame option please, for us XGA plasma and lcd set owners please!

Yeah I really don’t want to have to still run everything through a Crestron HD or Extron DSC 301 scaler after the the retrotink.

[mikechi2]

Got nothing to do but twiddle my thumbs and write firmware. So I guess that's good news in a sense, haha.

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and update everyone here.

I know there is a lot of people on this forum that really appreciate the work you are putting into the hobby we all love and the contributions you've made to it.

Looking forward to see more of the 5X!

Thanks a lot to you and everyone else for your kind words! I wouldn't be here without you guys.

A few quick answers: 480p can be scaled to 1080p, 1200p or 1440p with a selectable interpolation kernel (smooth, sharp and in the case of 1440p integer).

Unfortunately I'm not too keen on adding less used resolutions. My stuff has always been focused on maximum compatibility and ease of use, hence stock 1080p is the default mode. The 5X has a bilinear sharp polyphase scaler so it looks good even at non-integer scale factors. Adding things like 768p honestly results in far too many "it doesn't work or it doesn't look right" complaints. If there's a strong demand, the modes could be added via firmware updates, although number one on the update list is full screen PSP.

Sorry, no 480p -> 480i. This is something in the back of my mind, but the architecture of the scaler isn't setup to produce interlaced sync yet haha. I would love to have this for watching movies, although I think (?) you can get commerical HDMI -> component dongles that can do this (?)

[mikechi2]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

[Guspaz]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

Many people consider 720p to be ideal for 240p with scanlines, because it allows a 3x integer scale where every third line is reduced in intensity to simulate scanlines. Most devices that support 480/720/1080 end up with too much of a gap between scanlines at 480p, uneven/ugly scanlines at 1080p (due to the 4.5x factor), and good looking scanlines at 720p.

None of this necessarily reflects how they'll look on the 5X, but that's the reasoning behind people requesting it.

[mikechi2]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

Many people consider 720p to be ideal for 240p with scanlines, because it allows a 3x integer scale where every third line is reduced in intensity to simulate scanlines. Most devices that support 480/720/1080 end up with too much of a gap between scanlines at 480p, uneven/ugly scanlines at 1080p (due to the 4.5x factor), and good looking scanlines at 720p.

None of this necessarily reflects how they'll look on the 5X, but that's the reasoning behind people requesting it.

I definitely get the logic, but in the end you're relying on some unknown secondary scaler, unless you're using a 2010 Walmart special 720p panel. With a proper polyphase scaler you can do this all in one step and have full control over the process.

[Konsolkongen]

720p scales perfectly to 4k. Sure it looks a little bit softer on my OLED TV, but it's scaled perfectly and evenly, 1200p is very slightly off and you'll see faint horisontal shimmering with scanlines. If the RetroTINK 5X can't do an integer 3x scale from 240p to 720p it's not a device for me personally.

[mikechi2]

720p scales perfectly to 4k. Sure it looks a little bit softer on my OLED TV, but it's scaled perfectly and evenly, 1200p is very slightly off and you'll see faint horisontal shimmering with scanlines. If the RetroTINK 5X can't do an integer 3x scale from 240p to 720p it's not a device for me personally.

The whole "integer scale" is honestly nonsense and quite misunderstood largely because of badly designed scaling and scanline generation algorithms.

I would take 1080p/1200p/1440p source scaled to 4K over 720p any day. At an "integer" scale factor, your TV's polyphase interpolation kernel (especially at low factors of 2 or 3) degenerate into something similar to a bilinear filter.

[Konsolkongen]

You are correct, but I hate shimmering with a passion. 720p scaled to 4K is free of that. 1080p requires large borders and 1200p and 1440p while sharper will have some shimmer, how bad depends on the scaler in your TV.

Edit: I do use 5x mode on the OSSC a lot, and it is noticeably sharper than 3x. Unfortunately there are titles where I immediately notice the shimmering caused by uneven pixels on the vertical axis. I play those at 3x for that reason. Scanlines also mask the very slight softening, my LG OLED adds to a 720p image, a bit.
The scaler in my TV is pretty good all things considered. I can definitely see cheaper TVs struggling with this and why you’d want to avoid 3x on some of those.

[whatamansion]

Mike, how is tv compatibility for NTSC SNES and NES (due to jitter)? Does the new 5X pretty much eliminate the compatibility issues that these consoles have (without the dejitter board) on the OSSC with certain tv's? Sony tv's especially. Those consoles on two 4k Sony tv's (X900E and X800D) pretty much don't work. 5X mode will show a picture on the OSSC for around 30 seconds then screen will flicker for a few seconds. That's the only mode that will (barely) work.

Also, the Retro Access Scart Dreamcast cable will work, right?

[mikechi2]

Mike, how is tv compatibility for NTSC SNES and NES (due to jitter)? Does the new 5X pretty much eliminate the compatibility issues that these consoles have (without the dejitter board) on the OSSC with certain tv's? Sony tv's especially. Those consoles on two 4k Sony tv's (X900E and X800D) pretty much don't work. 5X mode will show a picture on the OSSC for around 30 seconds then screen will flicker for a few seconds. That's the only mode that will (barely) work.

Also, the Retro Access Scart Dreamcast cable will work, right?

The HDMI side video timing is more or less decoupled from the source, so it's immune to SNES jitter (knock on wood). The biggest problem now is that not all TVs will accept the 60.1 Hz refresh from the SNES, but there's a triple buffer mode (0.25 to 1.25 frame of lag) that can normalize the signal back to 60 Hz. Otherwise you can use frame lock which is a constant ~30 lines lag.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying the RA cables (really need to get hands on them), but I think this should work fine.

[fernan1234]

Thanks a lot to you and everyone else for your kind words! I wouldn't be here without you guys.

And thanks to you for making awesome solutions for us! I got a 2X-M a few days before you announced the 5X will be in production soon and I'm still happy for both devices. I'm loving what the M can do for my Famicom and some video sources, so it'll have its place even after I get a 5X also.

Sorry, no 480p -> 480i. This is something in the back of my mind, but the architecture of the scaler isn't setup to produce interlaced sync yet haha. I would love to have this for watching movies, although I think (?) you can get commerical HDMI -> component dongles that can do this (?)

Understandable. Doing actual interlaced outputs in general seems to involve a very specific software configuration. And yes there are many devices that can do this, but like I mentioned earlier all the ones I've used introduce ringing artifacts. Hopefully this will be a particular use case that will be addressed well eventually by a device from our retro video/game scene.

And it is true that 720p/3X has generally been the ideal to get proper scanlines on HD/FHD/UHD displays. But maybe the scaling on the RT5X will make them look proper also? I've heard of people working on a solution for proper scanlines on 5X scaling, particularly on the MiSTer now that 5X has been introduced for all (?) cores.

[mikechi2]

Thanks a lot to you and everyone else for your kind words! I wouldn't be here without you guys.

And thanks to you for making awesome solutions for us! I got a 2X-M a few days before you announced the 5X will be in production soon and I'm still happy for both devices. I'm loving what the M can do for my Famicom and some video sources, so it'll have its place even after I get a 5X also.

Sorry, no 480p -> 480i. This is something in the back of my mind, but the architecture of the scaler isn't setup to produce interlaced sync yet haha. I would love to have this for watching movies, although I think (?) you can get commerical HDMI -> component dongles that can do this (?)

Understandable. Doing actual interlaced outputs in general seems to involve a very specific software configuration. And yes there are many devices that can do this, but like I mentioned earlier all the ones I've used introduce ringing artifacts. Hopefully this will be a particular use case that will be addressed well eventually by a device from our retro video/game scene.

And it is true that 720p/3X has generally been the ideal to get proper scanlines on HD/FHD/UHD displays. But maybe the scaling on the RT5X will make them look proper also? I've heard of people working on a solution for proper scanlines on 5X scaling, particularly on the MiSTer now that 5X has been introduced for all (?) cores.

Thanks again man and I'm glad to hear the 2X-M still has a good home

The 5X treats scanline generation as an interpolation problem, which is a modern approach similar to how MiSTer does it, I believe. So this allows for good scanline results even on non-integer scaling.

[mikechi2]

You are correct, but I hate shimmering with a passion. 720p scaled to 4K is free of that. 1080p requires large borders and 1200p and 1440p while sharper will have some shimmer, how bad depends on the scaler in your TV.

Edit: I do use 5x mode on the OSSC a lot, and it is noticeably sharper than 3x. Unfortunately there are titles where I immediately notice the shimmering caused by uneven pixels on the vertical axis. I play those at 3x for that reason. Scanlines also mask the very slight softening, my LG OLED adds to a 720p image, a bit.
The scaler in my TV is pretty good all things considered. I can definitely see cheaper TVs struggling with this and why you’d want to avoid 3x on some of those.

I will say the one time I was actually blown away by integer scaling was seeing the SNES in 7x H, 6x V. But this was on a silly 27in computer monitor and obviously no 1440p big screen TVs around.

[whatamansion]

Mike, how is tv compatibility for NTSC SNES and NES (due to jitter)? Does the new 5X pretty much eliminate the compatibility issues that these consoles have (without the dejitter board) on the OSSC with certain tv's? Sony tv's especially. Those consoles on two 4k Sony tv's (X900E and X800D) pretty much don't work. 5X mode will show a picture on the OSSC for around 30 seconds then screen will flicker for a few seconds. That's the only mode that will (barely) work.

Also, the Retro Access Scart Dreamcast cable will work, right?

The HDMI side video timing is more or less decoupled from the source, so it's immune to SNES jitter (knock on wood). The biggest problem now is that not all TVs will accept the 60.1 Hz refresh from the SNES, but there's a triple buffer mode (0.25 to 1.25 frame of lag) that can normalize the signal back to 60 Hz. Otherwise you can use frame lock which is a constant ~30 lines lag.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying the RA cables (really need to get hands on them), but I think this should work fine.

Excellent! This thing sounds amazing! Can't wait to get my hands on it

[Sirotaca]

Will it support 24 kHz or other unusual scan rates?

[Tempest_2084]

Ok this may be a dumb question, but I want to make sure I understand this correctly. If I have a bunch of RGB enabled or modded consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis, Saturn, TG-16, N64, PS1, PS2, etc.) that all use SCART connections, I can hook them into this device and use them on my modern TV (it's a 39" Vizio that's about 4 years old) without issue? Surely there must be a catch, it sounds too good to be true!

[TooBeaucoup]

Ok this may be a dumb question, but I want to make sure I understand this correctly. If I have a bunch of RGB enabled or modded consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis, Saturn, TG-16, N64, PS1, PS2, etc.) that all use SCART connections, I can hook them into this device and use them on my modern TV (it's a 39" Vizio that's about 4 years old) without issue? Surely there must be a catch, it sounds too good to be true!

Pretty much. Mike has said it was designed to send out very standardized signals that should play nice with almost all modern TVs, not like the OSSC which can be very finicky.

[bobrocks95]

You are correct, but I hate shimmering with a passion. 720p scaled to 4K is free of that. 1080p requires large borders and 1200p and 1440p while sharper will have some shimmer, how bad depends on the scaler in your TV.

Edit: I do use 5x mode on the OSSC a lot, and it is noticeably sharper than 3x. Unfortunately there are titles where I immediately notice the shimmering caused by uneven pixels on the vertical axis. I play those at 3x for that reason. Scanlines also mask the very slight softening, my LG OLED adds to a 720p image, a bit.
The scaler in my TV is pretty good all things considered. I can definitely see cheaper TVs struggling with this and why you’d want to avoid 3x on some of those.

Other than some Panasonic 4K sets with 1080p it's not like your TV is using integer scaling anyway? I've never noticed shimmering with integer scaling with my OSSC...

[strayan]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

This is such a genuinely odd thing to say that I think there must be some misunderstanding going on.

Line tripled 720p output is the optimal resolution for displays with a native resolution of 1366/1360x768p or 1024x768 providing you can centre the active 720p image properly with small amount of letter/pillar boxing. It is absolutely one of the the ideal resolutions for 240p consoles because you can add a blank line every third line (as already mentioned). It is extremely useful for 256p games too.

[maxtherabbit]

Line tripled 720p output is the optimal resolution for displays with a native resolution of 1366/1360x768p or 1024x768.

I think you may be greatly overestimating the number of people who give a shit about that

[bobrocks95]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

This is such a genuinely odd thing to say that I think there must be some misunderstanding going on.

Line tripled 720p output is the optimal resolution for displays with a native resolution of 1366/1360x768p or 1024x768 providing you can centre the active 720p image properly with small amount of letter/pillar boxing. It is absolutely one of the the ideal resolutions for 240p consoles because you can add a blank line every third line (as already mentioned). It is extremely useful for 256p games too.

720p does look good for scanlines and a soft look, but I'd be interested in a show of hands on how many people are still using 1366x768 monitors, much less 1024x768

[strayan]

I think you may be greatly overestimating the number of people who give a shit about that

People absolutely don’t give a shit.

Doesn’t change the fact it looks great.

[mikechi2]

720p for 240p consoles with scanlines. Simple request. For everything else an HDMI solution exists.

This makes no sense and 720p looks terrible compared to 1080p/1200p/1440p.

This is such a genuinely odd thing to say that I think there must be some misunderstanding going on.

Line tripled 720p output is the optimal resolution for displays with a native resolution of 1366/1360x768p or 1024x768 providing you can centre the active 720p image properly with small amount of letter/pillar boxing. It is absolutely one of the the ideal resolutions for 240p consoles because you can add a blank line every third line (as already mentioned). It is extremely useful for 256p games too.

I think I understand your point. Going back to my earlier comment, I think people have been stuck on "integer" scaling to 720p simply because of experiences with bad algorithms. A polyphase scaler + scanline generation optimized for pixel art can produce much higher quality results for 1080p panels without needing to resort to using older LCD panels.

Let's just say that part of my crusade now is to get everyone off the "integer scale" bandwagon unless it's to 1440p, hahaha.

[strayan]

720p does look good for scanlines and a soft look, but I'd be interested in a show of hands on how many people are still using 1366x768 monitors, much less 1024x768

There is nothing soft about it https://imgur.com/vf06J3j

1366x768 displays are hugely underrated because people generally don’t understand resolution beyond ‘higher resolutions are better’. They are ideal for 240p consoles and the PS3/Xbox 360 generation and many more modern consoles titles that use dynamic resolution and drop often to 720p or even below. Lotsa stuff on the Nintendo Switch is like this. Even titles like Breath of the Wild which have an internal resolution of 900p (tops!) look better slightly downscaled than they do upscaled to 2160p.

[strayan]

I think I understand your point. Going back to my earlier comment, I think people have been stuck on "integer" scaling to 720p simply because of experiences with bad algorithms. A polyphase scaler + scanline generation optimized for pixel art can produce much higher quality results for 1080p panels without needing to resort to using older LCD panels.

Let's just say that part of my crusade now is to get everyone off the "integer scale" bandwagon unless it's to 1440p, hahaha.

Resorting to older displays is unavoidable if you prefer the look of emissive displays. What’s wrong with using old TVs with old consoles anyway

I’d buy a 1440p OLED any day (never gonna happen unfortunately). I’m all over the 1440p integer scaling bandwagon too.

[fernan1234]

Let's just say that part of my crusade now is to get everyone off the "integer scale" bandwagon unless it's to 1440p, hahaha.

Definitely a worthy cause. Even 1080p panels are obsolete now, let alone ancient 768p ones, in the sense that the best tech and picture quality is only really coming out for 4K (and even 8K) TVs and monitors, and perhaps also some 1440p PC monitors. There's no way to get a good new 1080p panel now, if any are made at all they're the lowest entry level stuff you can find--except professional panels, which do look better than even 4K sets lol.

So targeting optimal results for 1080p and 1440p, both of which are generally scaled very well on 4K panels, is the obvious choice.

For niche uses such as optimal results for 768p/720p you'll need a proportionately specialized device, like the OSSC/Pro.

1366x768 displays are hugely underrated because people generally don’t understand resolution beyond ‘higher resolutions are better’. The are ideal for 240p consoles and the PS3/Xbox 360 generation and many more modern consoles titles that use dynamic resolution and drop often to 720p or even below. Lotsa stuff on the Nintendo Switch is like this. Even titles like Breath of the Wild which have an internal resolution of 900p (tops!) look better slightly downscaled than they do upscaled to 2160p.

Sure, any content will look best everything else being equal when presented on its native resolution pixel matched. But for those you'd rely on obsolete tech or expensive monitors that do pixel matching display of non-native resolutions. 720p content on an old plasma or LCD will look worse than how it will with the combination of good upscaling and the advantages of a better, current display, especially this years' new OLEDs.

But if you want to play old systems on old TVs nothing beats CRTs anyway and those don't need these video processors.

[strayan]

[But for those you'd rely on obsolete tech or expensive monitors that do pixel matching display of non-native resolutions. 720p content on an old plasma or LCD will look worse than how it will with the combination of good upscaling and the advantages of a better, current display, especially this years' new OLEDs.

Improvements to scaling on modern TVs is not going to do anything for titles that use dynamic resolutions because the console itself is doing the scaling internally, not the TV. That’ll of course change when the Switch adopts DLSS.

[bobrocks95]

720p does look good for scanlines and a soft look, but I'd be interested in a show of hands on how many people are still using 1366x768 monitors, much less 1024x768

There is nothing soft about it https://imgur.com/vf06J3j

1366x768 displays are hugely underrated because people generally don’t understand resolution beyond ‘higher resolutions are better’. They are ideal for 240p consoles and the PS3/Xbox 360 generation and many more modern consoles titles that use dynamic resolution and drop often to 720p or even below. Lotsa stuff on the Nintendo Switch is like this. Even titles like Breath of the Wild which have an internal resolution of 900p (tops!) look better slightly downscaled than they do upscaled to 2160p.

Soft on a non-native display I mean. 5x on the OSSC looks better than 3x obviously.

And, uh, no, I don't think old LCDs are underrated considering their response time is probably awful. A 10 year old panel isn't going to perform nearly as well as a modern one, the tech has come a long way recently.

I’d buy a 1440p OLED any day (never gonna happen unfortunately). I’m all over the 1440p integer scaling bandwagon too.

People are really going off in this thread.... Have you seen 1440p on a 4K display? It looks wonderful. Like mike has been saying, people are really fixated on "integer scaling", as if they're still back in the days of feeding 240p straight into a 1080p set and seeing it mangled and thinking that's the best non-integer can do.

Options never hurt, but we're doing that thing where you focus 90% of your energy on like a 1% better result.