RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

gbihf-direct-ypbpr.dol outputs 1080i 60Hz and is definitely not what you want when using the RT5X- GBI Optimal only appears when a 360p input is detected.

It doesn't look like you can link in-progress edits (looks the same as the live version to me), but I also would have thought I wanted HiRes 858 for 480p sources, except DTV 858 (3:2) for the Dreamcast.

Is HiRes 858 like an oversampling mode that's like a slightly optimized generic sampling, while DTV-A/B are fully optimal?
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pulsemod
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by pulsemod »

hey, apologies if anything I ask here has been answered before, I can't search "PS2" with phpBB's built-in search and the rest of the video game web seems to be filled with terribly wrong information about analogue video.

I've been given a 5X to play with for a while, and I've been trying to set up presets for the 2 most common interlaced PS2 video modes. firmware 3.0.

I've been following the suggested settings on the Console Mods Wiki for PS2 at 1080p (over) (2.5x scaling?), and the HiRes 858 mode settings were straightforward, but I can't seem to get the HiRes 512 settings to match at all. the V Size value in particular is so off that I can't help but assume the 1612 is wrong for that resolution. it cuts off far too much when the percentage value matches, too. how are these optimal H interp and and V Size values determined? they apply additional scaling but nothing I seem to set actually looks super great in the end. I was going to try going by the 4:3 ratio in the scaling menu but the HiRes 858 settings have that at 0.90, so I'm not sure about that either. there are no suggestions for 1080p (under).

on another note, for determining whether a game uses 512 or 640 video modes, is it OK to go based on aspect ratio? if I'm correct in that the two modes 512x576i and 640x576i are both anamorphic 4:3, if a game appears at the wrong aspect ratio when using the HiRes 858 settings, that's evidence that it's outputting a 512x576 signal? the PS2 menu seems to output like that.

sorry about the overload of questions, it's my first time using any kind of analogue to digital scaler, so I'm a little bit confused about some things. thanks for reading.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by cfx »

This may be a rendundant, or stupid, question but 75 pages is a lot to go through.

Does the Retrotink 5X have an output mode that will work properly on a 1600 x 1200 resolution 4:3 LCD display?

As far as I can determine, the 480p output is the only 4:3 output resolution, but I am semi-clueless about this. I did not find anything in the documentation but I may have overlooked something.

I don't have the monitor or I'd just experiment with it. It's something I would consider buying if it will work.
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

There's definitely a 1200p mode, but the wiki doesn't say what the horizontal resolution is.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

The 480p output is 1440x480, so it's not 4:3. It's intended for use with a DAC, where you want the maximum possible horizontal resolution to get the best analog signal.

I think 1200p was 1600x1200, but I'd ask on the Discord server to be sure.
cfx
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by cfx »

Guspaz wrote:The 480p output is 1440x480, so it's not 4:3. It's intended for use with a DAC, where you want the maximum possible horizontal resolution to get the best analog signal.
I don't understand what that means, but I do know that using a DAC with I get a usable signal that a CRT PC monitor tells me is 640x480 as far as I recall, so it's the intended result anyway.
Guspaz wrote:I think 1200p was 1600x1200, but I'd ask on the Discord server to be sure.
As someone that uses no social media, I have no idea what Discord is or how to use it.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by DejahThoris »

cfx wrote:As someone that uses no social media, I have no idea what Discord is or how to use it.
Discord is more of a modern forum than it is social media, and you've made it here, so you could succeed there without much issue. Install it on your phone or computer, make an account, you join a server (basically a forum, which has sub-forums called channels) via a link (which should be on the retrotink website), and you're on your way.
fernan1234
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

DejahThoris wrote:Discord is more of a modern forum than it is social media, and you've made it here, so you could succeed there without much issue. Install it on your phone or computer, make an account, you join a server (basically a forum, which has sub-forums called channels) via a link (which should be on the retrotink website), and you're on your way.
Actually no need to install the app, you can also use it via browser as a regular website (which IMO works better than the app). But yeah Discord is the place to be for Tink discussions.
ldeveraux
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by ldeveraux »

fernan1234 wrote:Actually no need to install the app, you can also use it via browser as a regular website (which IMO works better than the app).
This is the correct answer
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NateWolfKira
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by NateWolfKira »

Hello,
I recently happened to find this forum while I was researching about Genlock and Framelock modes with VRR. I was investigating whether or not it would be worth dishing out for a new RetroTink (I have an early model) just to access Genlock. Turns out, it is not. More on that below.

I came accross Triple Lei's comment that linked back to my youtube video about RetroTink settings for PSP. I have a couple updates regarding it as well as a follow-up/clarification to what Triple Lei was saying:
I have tested the settings again in Firmware version 3.0 and can confirm you can use the same settings that I started recommending with firmware version 2.71 (which was adjusted from the original concept TRS put up for v2.39).
No need to adjust with each firmware update, just something changed with video position with v2.71's release. Albeit your profiles will erase during a firmware update, just need to remake the same profile.

Another update that I have, I recommend turning on the VRR setting if your TV supports it. Especially when using Frame Lock or Genlock modes. It yields a much faster response time / input lag especially if the TV is in game mode (this is based on my findings with my TV, so your mileage may vary, but worth testing it out).

For games that have resolution switching ("The Chrono Cross Problem"), just stick to Triple Buffer. It can also be used if you're needing to swap out sources during streaming (without needing to reset the capture card). I didn't observe any difference with VRR being on or off while using Triple Buffer, but leaving VRR on may still be useful to get that faster response time in some TVs.

Regarding Genlock, it is only useful if you're using Composite or S-Video sources, especially if you're trying to use 1440p mode or higher. I only use RGB SCART or YpPbPr sources, thus Genlock has no use in my case (also applies to RGB Component). So only Frame Lock or Triple Buffer is needed regardless. Mike Chi also reassured me that Genlock is only useful in limited situations and most users will not need it and that I should stick with my early model. He also recommends Triple Buffer overall as the primary solution for resolution switching (especially when using a capture card).

I hope this information is useful to y'all. Some may have been covered in earlier discussion in the forum, but I wanted to share my overall findings. Let me know if any of you have any questions.
Triple Lei wrote: Anyway, since we still have no "official" PSP preset from Mike, it seems a bunch of us are independently looking for the best PSP settings on the RT5X, especially if they need to be changed with each firmware as this dude suggests. I'm not the only one who's not completely satisfied with Wobbling Pixel's settings; I don't mind cropping the gameplay area a bit if it means no black borders at all, for example. Here are my old settings. I just took a screenshot of the menu in WipEout Pure with the OSSC preset first, and I tried to match my RT5X to that.

One thing I'm damn sure of is I'm keeping "V Size" at +60% no matter what. It might crop a little bit of the picture on the top and bottom, but that's the only size at which BVM scanlines still look correct (at least at Generic 4:3), which has to mean... something. I dunno, I got the idea from FirebrandX's OSSC video from 2017.


To do:
  • Find best zoom/crop/stretch values for all those PSP compilations with "pixel perfect" modes (I've found I'm going to need at least two of these)
  • Revisit Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions 240p patch with RT5X
Triple Lei,
To also respond to you directly and provide additional context:
One of the reasons I didn't use Wobbling Pixel's solution is it left 5 lines of extra space for the sides instead of 4 and the video width seemed slightly off (although hard to notice). I am also not sure why he started his settings based on 4:3 instead of 16:9. Starting with 16:9 as the base made for much easier and even adjustments. TRS' solution produced "square" results as far as I can tell, so my post-FW:2.71 recommended settings were based on TRS'. If I could, I would be interested in having FirebrandX review my settings to see if he recommends any refinements to ensure a pixel perfect solution.

Regarding V Size 58% vs 60%, I understand your preference to fill the screen. But I wanted to mention, PSP does not use overscan and some games have HUD elements that run all the way directly to the edges. The 3rd Birthday especially has them all the way to edge on each side. In those cases you may want to consider allowing some black space to ensure all the visual elements are available to you.

If its helpful, I also recreated Wobbling Pixel's "Profile 1 without scanlines" solution (including his update in his pinned comment) adjusted for FW:2.71 and later. So if that solution still has use for any users, I can share those updated settings. However, for his scanline-specific solutions, I have not delve into those, I would need help with that.
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orange808
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by orange808 »

, I recommend turning on the VRR setting if your TV supports it. Especially when using Frame Lock or Genlock modes. It yields a much faster response time / input lag
We don't know that. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ It's for compatibility.

There's a beamer that added support for VRR using a frame buffer. The differences in blanking (that's what VRR is) are partially handled by buffering. That's lag. It adds lag, there.

We have absolutely no idea what any particular display does. We don't know how any manufacturer chooses to implement VRR. One easy way to handle tricky timing difficulties and reduce the work of implementing VRR is to use a frame buffer. There's no "off the shelf" handheld lag tester that outputs HDMI VRR, Freesync, or Gsync--and I don't know how RTings tests or how dependable their numbers are. There's little accountability and there's no way to know how it works (without a camera test).

RTings VRR lag numbers don't make sense to me. I don't see anything about the refresh rate of the source. I'm not shown the raw data or told how the frame time differs. I don't know what the test signal is doing. The superficial published numbers for some displays are impossible if we assume 60Hz output (like the other standard tests often do). You can't get to ~5ms "middle number" lag on the first hop with a direct wired 60Hz source machine (that originally creates the video signal) without fast frame transfer. Their numbers are poorly explained. A video processor in the chain could process video very quickly and pass it on, but the actual machine producing the video signal can't get "half the screen" out at ~5ms with an assumed 60Hz target refresh. That lag number can't be taken at face value. Their test rig is obviously outputting more than 60 frames per second, recovering from a frame dip, or it's using fast frame transfer to get those low numbers. Either way, it's not a reliable number for comparison to a Leo Bodnar or Time Sleuth result.

Sure, you can update all the pixels on LCD or OLED screens any time you want. The screen doesn't care what each pixel is doing. We don't have to wait for the electron gun to scan the screen or worry about perceived flickering when the gun scanout is erratic. On the other hand, I bet it's easier to do a quick and dirty VRR implementation with a buffer. No way of knowing what manufacturers will do. There's no guarantee the lag will be lower and there's really no good standardized data to compare VRR to standard scanout out there. If the display properly handles frame locked output and "scans out" as soon as possible after information comes down the wire, VRR shouldn't be any faster.

It's for compatibility.
We apologise for the inconvenience
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NateWolfKira
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by NateWolfKira »

orange808 wrote:
, I recommend turning on the VRR setting if your TV supports it. Especially when using Frame Lock or Genlock modes. It yields a much faster response time / input lag
We don't know that. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ It's for compatibility.
My assessment was based on the official support wiki page: Source
As well as personal experience when using it with my TV and PS2. I could see/feel a noticable difference in how quickly controller inputs are reflected on the screen (and it did also fix a couple issues I observed with Resident Evil 4 in 480p mode when VRR was off).
I also recall Mike Chi mentioning it a time or two (such as Twitter).
Certain displays support Variable Refresh Rate, allowing them to achieve a wider range of frame rates. The RetroTINK-5X can flag its output as VRR, which improves input lag for the Frame Lock and Gen Lock V-Sync modes. For certain displays this will also enable a special low latency mode, reducing the display's input lag.
Keep in mind, the VRR setting has a direct impact on the RetroTink's handling of its own lag for Frame Lock and Genlock modes. The flag can also impact your TV's handling of the input signal. I would caveat that your mileage may very, depending on what TV model you have and how it is designed.
RMA2000
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by RMA2000 »

Hi there,

I have the following problem with my SNES Mini with RGB bypass mod (borti4938) on RetroTINK 5x-Pro. I'm using the following MultiAV to SCART cable from RGC (CSNYC TTL), and the picture always shows some kind of bleeding / ghosting towards the top, especially from bright areas of the picture where the picture should be black. I don't know how to describe it better - attached are two screenshots.

https://imgur.com/sWEksZ2

https://imgur.com/vdtCJJI

I have a feeling I'm doing something wrong, only what?
sofakng
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by sofakng »

Hey guys, can anybody tell me if the RetroTINK 5x-Pro is suitable for upscaling retro computers to 1440p?

For example, I've been looking for something that can upscale DOS computers (mode 13h) to 1920x1440 (4:3 or similar).

The other issue is that it needs to support 70 Hz input/output so there is no framerate conversion, etc.

I've been holding out for the RT4K but I'm wondering if the 5x-Pro might work for me?
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Dont think the 5X can do 1440p@70Hz. Not 100% about that though.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

The RT5X is not well suited for scaling computers. It doesn't support VGA (RGBHV) input, it doesn't necessarily support 70Hz refresh rates (or other non-video timings), it's chroma subsampled except for certain input res/output res/sampling preset combos, etc. It's really meant for scaling retro game consoles, not retro computers.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by jd213 »

Mike has been pretty good at adding features to the 5X, and he personally seems to have a love of old PC stuff going by his recent tweets. So maybe he'd be willing to put in 70hz DOS support sometime, wouldn't hurt to ask.
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vol.2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

If there was any call for a PC mode, 13h would probably be it. As it is, this is what Mike officially says about 1440p output:

Not all TVs/displays will be compatible with 1440p. The RetroTINK-5X Pro uses 1920 x 1440p CVT reduced blanking timings. 1440p mode is only available for 240p/480i/480p sources
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Guspaz wrote:The RT5X is not well suited for scaling computers. It doesn't support VGA (RGBHV) input, it doesn't necessarily support 70Hz refresh rates (or other non-video timings), it's chroma subsampled except for certain input res/output res/sampling preset combos, etc. It's really meant for scaling retro game consoles, not retro computers.
The upcoming 4K will have DE-15 / VGA in, and therefore almost certainly will support RGBHV, I believe. Mike said its not meant to take the place of the 5X, which means it may only output in 6x+, but its shaping up to be the ultimate video scaler ever created, and by quite a large margin. Mike is a maniac-- theres no telling how many cool features he will add after its released as well, just like the 5X.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Unseen »

vol.2 wrote:If there was any call for a PC mode, 13h would probably be it.
I would say that supporting mode 03h too would be quite important because that makes launching any games a lot easier ;)
Issac Zachary
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Issac Zachary »

Guspaz wrote:There aren't any 27" QD-OLED monitors (though rumours are that Samsung may be working on one for Apple), but there are multiple 27" 2560x1440 240 Hz WOLED monitors coming out soon. They use LG panels, and they're only 1440p because that puts their pixel density close to their 42" TVs (they've never managed to scale pixel density higher for WOLED panels). I know that LG's model was announced some time ago at a $1000 pricepoint, ASUS announced their model based on the same panel with an unknown pricepoint, Dough (formerly Eve) announced an OLED version of their Spectrum monitor series using the panel with pre-orders for $649 and final retail price at $1099 (but the stand is extra on both of Dough's pricepoints).

I believe that all of these 27" OLED models are VESA mountable, which means they should be easy to rotate.

I have the 34" QD-OLED monitor, the Dell AW3423DW, which is 3440x1440 at 175Hz. I don't regret the purchase, but I also don't recommend it. Dell doesn't know how to ship them without microscratch issues (they do not properly protect the panel in shipping), and the launch firmware was terribly broken with no way to update it. My initial one had a dead pixel and the terribad firmware and I convinced them to replace it, and the customer support experience to do that was a nightmare. My replacement unit has the second (90% fixed) firmware and no dead pixels, but worse microscratches (actually visible in normal use in some lighting conditions), but not distracting 99% of the time, and Dell refused to do another exchange for the microscratches without going through warranty replacement (which would have gotten me a refurb instead of new one like the defective-on-arrival replacement process).

The issues that people complain about with QD-OLED panels (the triangular RGB subpixel arrangement, the impact environmental light has on the contrast ratio) don't bother me, and the panel itself is gorgeous, especially for HDR gaming. If you really want to have a QD-OLED computer monitor, though, I'd suggest getting the same panel from MSI or Samsung or anybody else but Dell. If you really do want the Dell model, then get the AW3423DWF model instead. It's physically almost identical to the AW3423DW (other than the colour being black instead of white), but removes the gsync module and thus has way more features, user-updatable firmware, and is like $200 cheaper.

I have not tested it with the RT5X other than very briefly and I don't fully remember the results. The monitor is very picky about input resolutions and will not accept things like 1920x1440 inputs. This may be the fault of the gsync module, so this may not be true of the non-gsync version. I bought the monitor for PC gaming, my RT5X is connected to my LG C1.
A QHD OLED (W-OLED or QD-OLED) would be awesome for gaming IMO. If I could only justify the cost. The glass version of the Dough Spectrum Oled is at $899 right now (not including stand and is a preorder) which is way more than I've ever spent on any TV or Monitor. And there's the fear of it not working with things like the RT5X, the MiSTer not working and stuff like burn-in and not being bright enough, etc.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

I would be very cautious of burn-in on anything other than an LG panel in an LG TV. Even LG panels in non-LG TVs are somehow problematic, it's not clear what secret sauce LG's got in their TVs. It's also not clear if whatever LG is doing on their TVs to make their panels so resistant to burn-in applies to their monitors.

RTINGS is currently running a long-haul burn-in test on like 100 OLED TVs and monitors, which is where all these concerns came from (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/longevi ... nd-results). It's where we see QD-OLEDs experiencing quite rapid burn-in, and LG TVs appearing quite resistant to burn-in, even compared to the exact same panel in non-LG TVs. The LG 27GR95QE is probably what you'd want to keep an eye on, it's LG's 27" 1440p WOLED monitor. It did die completely after less than two months, but that was a motherboard failure rather than a panel failure, and it was returned to the test after the motherboard was swapped out.

A note: the test page that I linked is a bit confusing. You can't directly access the full resolution burn-in test images from that page. Instead, click on the model name/number on the left, which opens the rtings review of that particular display, and scroll down to the accelerated longevity test box. From there you can select the age of the photo and colour of the test pattern and click on the image to get the full-sized view. Monitors/TVs are added as time goes on, this doesn't cause any issues with comparability because the age of the photo is based on the individual monitor's test length, not since the many-monitor test started. I believe new test photos are taken every two months, so we currently only have the two month photos for all the monitors.

Currently, in the two month photos for the three monitors, all three have detectable burn-in. Using the magenta pattern, the LG WOLED burn-in is not visible to the naked eye, but I can see the CNN logo when I play with the levels in Photoshop. The Samsung QD-OLED burn-in is just barely visible to the naked eye, it's hard to make out what's there but you can tell the brightness isn't uniform to the naked eye. The Alienware QD-OLED is slightly worse than the Samsung, and the CNN logo is distinguishable to the naked eye.

This does not bode well for OLED monitors. The LG C2 appears to be significantly outperforming the LG 27GR95QE-B.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Issac Zachary »

Guspaz wrote:I would be very cautious of burn-in on anything other than an LG panel in an LG TV. Even LG panels in non-LG TVs are somehow problematic, it's not clear what secret sauce LG's got in their TVs. It's also not clear if whatever LG is doing on their TVs to make their panels so resistant to burn-in applies to their monitors.

RTINGS is currently running a long-haul burn-in test on like 100 OLED TVs and monitors, which is where all these concerns came from (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/longevi ... nd-results). It's where we see QD-OLEDs experiencing quite rapid burn-in, and LG TVs appearing quite resistant to burn-in, even compared to the exact same panel in non-LG TVs. The LG 27GR95QE is probably what you'd want to keep an eye on, it's LG's 27" 1440p WOLED monitor. It did die completely after less than two months, but that was a motherboard failure rather than a panel failure, and it was returned to the test after the motherboard was swapped out.

A note: the test page that I linked is a bit confusing. You can't directly access the full resolution burn-in test images from that page. Instead, click on the model name/number on the left, which opens the rtings review of that particular display, and scroll down to the accelerated longevity test box. From there you can select the age of the photo and colour of the test pattern and click on the image to get the full-sized view. Monitors/TVs are added as time goes on, this doesn't cause any issues with comparability because the age of the photo is based on the individual monitor's test length, not since the many-monitor test started. I believe new test photos are taken every two months, so we currently only have the two month photos for all the monitors.

Currently, in the two month photos for the three monitors, all three have detectable burn-in. Using the magenta pattern, the LG WOLED burn-in is not visible to the naked eye, but I can see the CNN logo when I play with the levels in Photoshop. The Samsung QD-OLED burn-in is just barely visible to the naked eye, it's hard to make out what's there but you can tell the brightness isn't uniform to the naked eye. The Alienware QD-OLED is slightly worse than the Samsung, and the CNN logo is distinguishable to the naked eye.

This does not bode well for OLED monitors. The LG C2 appears to be significantly outperforming the LG 27GR95QE-B.
Thanks for that info! Ya, there is no perfect display out there yet. I have heard great promises of nano-LED in a couple years, but who knows what it will actually be like. Maybe I need to add a handle to my VGA CRT and just lug that around for now in and out of storage. If only I had a bigger house/room to put it in.

Still, I shouldn't complain. LCD works even if it isn't the best, and my TFT Samsung 1200p 16:10 monitor works pretty slick for a lot of retro resolutions.
alamone
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by alamone »

Issac Zachary wrote:The glass version of the Dough Spectrum Oled is at $899 right now (not including stand and is a preorder) which is way more than I've ever spent on any TV or Monitor. And there's the fear of it not working with things like the RT5X, the MiSTer not working and stuff like burn-in and not being bright enough, etc.
I preordered one when the cost was $700. I don't need the stand since I use a VESA wall mount. Yes I've heard all the horror stories about Spectrum / Dough, but I figured if anything went wrong I could always do a chargeback via my credit card company. The main thing that drove me to the Dough over the competition was the pixel perfect scaling options, which would be ideal for OSSC and retro gaming, plus it has strobing modes, which for some reason no other OLED monitor has.

Just as an aside, I've been using a 65 inch LG OLED CX as my main PC monitor, which I use pretty much everyday, with ABL (automatic brightness limiter) disabled in the service menu. I see no evidence of burn-in anywhere, and I don't do anything special (e.g. hiding the taskbar). I think if you go with LG OLED TVs, the risk of burn-in is pretty minimal for their more recent models.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Recent LG OLED TVs seem to be OK. Everything else (even with LG OLED panels) is still a question mark. QD-OLED turned out to be extremely susceptible to burn-in (he said as he typed this message on his QD-OLED monitor).

About pulling an old CRT out of storage, I'd caution that CRTs (and plasma) both suffer from burn-in. It's why we had screensavers in the CRT era in the first place. Though screensavers did/do the opposite of prevent burn-in, they accelerate it, but in a more even pattern to theoretically make the burn-in less noticeable at a cost of overall decreased brightness. Anyway, don't treat your CRT or plasma TVs and monitors like an LCD, treat them like an OLED and avoid things that exacerbate burn-in.
Issac Zachary
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Issac Zachary »

alamone wrote:
Issac Zachary wrote:The main thing that drove me to the Dough over the competition was the pixel perfect scaling options, which would be ideal for OSSC and retro gaming, plus it has strobing modes, which for some reason no other OLED monitor has.
Yes, I was going to say it's the only one with BFI (at least at that resolution).

Guspaz wrote:Recent LG OLED TVs seem to be OK. Everything else (even with LG OLED panels) is still a question mark. QD-OLED turned out to be extremely susceptible to burn-in (he said as he typed this message on his QD-OLED monitor).

About pulling an old CRT out of storage, I'd caution that CRTs (and plasma) both suffer from burn-in. It's why we had screensavers in the CRT era in the first place. Though screensavers did/do the opposite of prevent burn-in, they accelerate it, but in a more even pattern to theoretically make the burn-in less noticeable at a cost of overall decreased brightness. Anyway, don't treat your CRT or plasma TVs and monitors like an LCD, treat them like an OLED and avoid things that exacerbate burn-in.
Ya, the thing about it is I use an LCD for a computer monitor and TV. I'm using it right now for typing this. We use it to watch movies. We use it for everything. The downside of having a small place and an OLED is it would easily become our next everything display.

But with the CRT things are different. We don't play videogames every day. In fact, sometimes we may go weeks without playing. It kind of depends on the weather and our mood. Worth buying an OLED just for that? I guess not. As an everything display an OLED would be worth it but also not worth it at the same time. But the CRT is a gaming-only display. I actually have two in storage, but the RGB and Y Pb Pr converted Trinitron TV stopped working and I haven't had time to try to fix it. Still, these look great and make the game feel better. The VGA monitor is smaller, so easier to go grab on game night.
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orange808
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by orange808 »

For many gamers with limited space, a small 15" PC CRT can be a very sensible solution. I suppose that's why the XRGB machines and Micomsoft found initial success in Japan (and beyond). Finding a monitor and being stuck on a small screen isn't convenient, though.

If I was going to do that right now: I would use a GBS CFW build as my primary scaler. Lots of trade offs in those choices, but it's still going to look nice and work well. Tate mode should be easy as well. Just carefully turn the monitor on it's side.

I don't know about availability for PC CRT monitors or the prices for Gonbes scalers, but a setup like that was ridiculously cheap a couple years ago. I only tolerate OLED for the large screen and convenience. To my eye, even an unappreciated PC CRT absolutely smokes an OLED on image quality for legacy video games. It's bright, glows appropriately, and the motion is flawless. OLED's thick fake scanlines aren't enough to make up for the blur, dim screen, and lack of phosphor glow--if I could discard my need for an easy and readily available large screen.
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VEGETA
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by VEGETA »

orange808 wrote:For many gamers with limited space, a small 15" PC CRT can be a very sensible solution. I suppose that's why the XRGB machines and Micomsoft found initial success in Japan (and beyond). Finding a monitor and being stuck on a small screen isn't convenient, though.

If I was going to do that right now: I would use a GBS CFW build as my primary scaler. Lots of trade offs in those choices, but it's still going to look nice and work well. Tate mode should be easy as well. Just carefully turn the monitor on it's side.

I don't know about availability for PC CRT monitors or the prices for Gonbes scalers, but a setup like that was ridiculously cheap a couple years ago. I only tolerate OLED for the large screen and convenience. To my eye, even an unappreciated PC CRT absolutely smokes an OLED on image quality for legacy video games. It's bright, glows appropriately, and the motion is flawless. OLED's thick fake scanlines aren't enough to make up for the blur, dim screen, and lack of phosphor glow--if I could discard my need for an easy and readily available large screen.
PC CRTs are nice choice for sure, very cheap as well. you just need an OSSC\GBS-C to output 480p and above, then convert it to analog and you will get a really nice result.

I was hoping to find a PC CRT with support for 15 khz as well but i couldn't.
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Einzelherz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Einzelherz »

Guspaz wrote:I would be very cautious of burn-in on anything other than an LG panel in an LG TV. Even LG panels in non-LG TVs are somehow problematic, it's not clear what secret sauce LG's got in their TVs. It's also not clear if whatever LG is doing on their TVs to make their panels so resistant to burn-in applies to their monitors.

RTINGS is currently running a long-haul burn-in test on like 100 OLED TVs and monitors, which is where all these concerns came from (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/longevi ... nd-results). It's where we see QD-OLEDs experiencing quite rapid burn-in, and LG TVs appearing quite resistant to burn-in, even compared to the exact same panel in non-LG TVs. The LG 27GR95QE is probably what you'd want to keep an eye on, it's LG's 27" 1440p WOLED monitor. It did die completely after less than two months, but that was a motherboard failure rather than a panel failure, and it was returned to the test after the motherboard was swapped out.

A note: the test page that I linked is a bit confusing. You can't directly access the full resolution burn-in test images from that page. Instead, click on the model name/number on the left, which opens the rtings review of that particular display, and scroll down to the accelerated longevity test box. From there you can select the age of the photo and colour of the test pattern and click on the image to get the full-sized view. Monitors/TVs are added as time goes on, this doesn't cause any issues with comparability because the age of the photo is based on the individual monitor's test length, not since the many-monitor test started. I believe new test photos are taken every two months, so we currently only have the two month photos for all the monitors.

Currently, in the two month photos for the three monitors, all three have detectable burn-in. Using the magenta pattern, the LG WOLED burn-in is not visible to the naked eye, but I can see the CNN logo when I play with the levels in Photoshop. The Samsung QD-OLED burn-in is just barely visible to the naked eye, it's hard to make out what's there but you can tell the brightness isn't uniform to the naked eye. The Alienware QD-OLED is slightly worse than the Samsung, and the CNN logo is distinguishable to the naked eye.

This does not bode well for OLED monitors. The LG C2 appears to be significantly outperforming the LG 27GR95QE-B.
One thing I'd like to point on about the rtings tests is that they are full on torture. They're running CNN constantly for an average of 18 hours a day. And at that it's taking hundreds of hours to get burn in to set.

Personally, I don't watch a whole lot with static images and I often try to cycle what I'm sending to the TV (e.g. 4:3, 16:9, 18:9, whatever:9). I came from a Panny plasma though so I already had some of that behavior ingrained. I played through all of FF5 on that TV at one time and the black bars on the side as well as the battle HUD outlines retained for about a month before they evened out.

All that said, any of the people buying OLEDs for PC monitors, I personally think they're asking for trouble.
alamone
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by alamone »

orange808 wrote:For many gamers with limited space, a small 15" PC CRT can be a very sensible solution. I suppose that's why the XRGB machines and Micomsoft found initial success in Japan (and beyond). Finding a monitor and being stuck on a small screen isn't convenient, though.

If I was going to do that right now: I would use a GBS CFW build as my primary scaler. Lots of trade offs in those choices, but it's still going to look nice and work well. Tate mode should be easy as well. Just carefully turn the monitor on it's side.

I don't know about availability for PC CRT monitors or the prices for Gonbes scalers, but a setup like that was ridiculously cheap a couple years ago. I only tolerate OLED for the large screen and convenience. To my eye, even an unappreciated PC CRT absolutely smokes an OLED on image quality for legacy video games. It's bright, glows appropriately, and the motion is flawless. OLED's thick fake scanlines aren't enough to make up for the blur, dim screen, and lack of phosphor glow--if I could discard my need for an easy and readily available large screen.
Yeah, I tried to write a post earlier on Chrome via iOS but the forum kept eating my message. Anyway, I totally agree that a standard VGA monitor with an upscaler is a totally legit alternative to buying an overpriced BVM/PVM, which seem to have suffered from the youtuber hype train. You can still get a decent VGA monitor for around $50-200, ideally a Trinitron or Diamondtron, whereas BVM/PVMs have gone to loony land when they used to be dirt cheap or even free. I guess the only issue is that the scanlines won't look the same - even though there's fake scanlines, it still doesn't look the same as a real low res CRT.
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