RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Odolwa
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Odolwa »

strayan wrote:
Odolwa wrote:Hi. I was just wondering about the possibility of there being a D-Sub 15-Pin version of the RT5X for those of us who prefer that format over Scart. Also, I wanted to know about proper H-Sampling for the Super Game Boy/Super Game Boy 2 and the N64’s Transfer Pak for the Pokémon games.
Here you go, problem solved: https://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2 ... how_detail
I'd rather not pay $50 Australian dollars for that thing. The reason why I want a D-Sub 15-Pin version of the RT5X is to not have to deal with the voltage issues that come with Scart. We won't need expensive converters, cables, or adapters, and we could say goodbye to Shart forever.
PearlJammzz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by PearlJammzz »

EnragedWhale wrote: I’m not convinced. In HDR mode the whole image isn’t really brighter, depending on the tone mapping it’s sometimes darker but of course with much brighter highlights. Whatever way you look at it you are driving the panel harder, not something I’ll be rushing to do on a expensive TV still in warranty.
That's fine, I am not trying to convince just share what information I have. It's your belongings to do with what you wish but the goal of the compensation is to get it up a few nits to counteract the BFI and scanlines. SDR has a limit, you can look it up what it is but it's super low compared to HDR so if you're watching something in SDR the brightness is low unless you have tone mapping enabled. Brighter HDR scenes push the panel harder than dimly lit of black (pixel off) scenes just given the nature of how OLEDs work. All that said, a scene with a super bright sun or explosion is working your panel harder than a scene where it's super dimly lit and you can barely make out anything.

Ultimately though, both cases are within the realm of normal operation. No one is using some hidden feature to burst the panel to 1000 nits or something.

I saw another comment that mentioned having one of these scalers (in this case, RT5x) shoot out a HDR signal to increase brightness and that's probably the best case. I am just not sure how hard or if it's even possible to send that kind of signal to the TV. From my understanding you don't just send an HDR flag of sorts but you have to send all of that HDR data to the set which requires more bandwidth from your chip(s). Perhaps it is possible and it'd be great to see one day but as things stand there are ways around it. Having gain control within the new OSD will go a LONG ways in tuning the image around the scanlines and BFI to give us a more true to form picture (meaning brightness aligning more with how it'd be on a properly calibrated CRT). Maybe John Linneman would be interested in doing this once the new features are released? I wouldn't be surprised if they talk about it on one of their retro talks or something. He seems to be a huge lover of RT5x + CX + BFI/scanlines and uses the same software I linked earlier.

All I know is having the brightness increased and scanlines and BFI off the image is no where near as bright as the bright highlights of a HDR film. I don't have any measurement tools but I have to squint in a lot of bright HDR scenes cause the panel gets so bright. I can't get any old SDR game to do that even with the brightness bumped 150nits. It's very clearly not as bright (again, with scanlines and BFI off)
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

strayan wrote:
Odolwa wrote:Hi. I was just wondering about the possibility of there being a D-Sub 15-Pin version of the RT5X for those of us who prefer that format over Scart. Also, I wanted to know about proper H-Sampling for the Super Game Boy/Super Game Boy 2 and the N64’s Transfer Pak for the Pokémon games.
Here you go, problem solved: https://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2 ... how_detail
What would that do with composite sync on the H-sync pin? What would it do with 75 Ohm sync signals?
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EnragedWhale
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by EnragedWhale »

@PearlJammz

Thank you for the thorough and well reasoned response.

I actually have 2 CX’s and the one for my retro setup barely sees 8 hours use a week so I’m probably babying it a bit too much!

Edit to add:

I guess my concern isn’t so much pushing the pixels past their peak brightness they normally experience in HDR and damaging the panel that way. It’s more the constant increased brightness level will increase the risk of burn in. The image maybe overall dimmer with scanlines because half the pixels are off but the pixels that are on will be just as bright and maybe more susceptible to ageing if driven brighter by modification. But I’m not even close to an expert so I may be talking nonsense!
strayan
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by strayan »

bobrocks95 wrote: What would that do with composite sync on the H-sync pin?
What do you mean? It’s compatible with TTL Csync and seperate H & V sync. I’ve only ever seen Csync being sent over pin 13 which is also typically used for Hsync.

bobrocks95 wrote: What would it do with 75 Ohm sync signals?
I don’t have an answer to that but if your device outputs attenuated csync why wouldn’t you just buy a cheap vga to scart adapter or cable?
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

strayan wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote: What would that do with composite sync on the H-sync pin?
What do you mean? It’s compatible with TTL Csync and seperate H & V sync. I’ve only ever seen Csync being sent over pin 13 which is also typically used for Hsync.
That's what I'm saying. Csync being sent over pin 13. What happens? I happen to know from other threads that that's Odolwa's use case since they have Retro-Access RGBS cables.
strayan wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote: What would it do with 75 Ohm sync signals?
I don’t have an answer to that but if your device outputs attenuated csync why wouldn’t you just buy a cheap vga to scart adapter or cable?
Usually "VGA to SCART" is the kind of thing I only see in hobbyist stuff like this. A glance around doesn't really show obvious choices for cheap adapters or cables that look like they would work. After all it's not really anything that would normally be happening outside of our niche, HD-15 is going to have 31kHz RGBHV and shoving that into a connector meant for 15kHz RGBS isn't a common application.

None of it will be necessary for the PixelFX Morph or the OSSC Pro though :)
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NewSchoolBoxer
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

Odolwa wrote:
strayan wrote: Here you go, problem solved: https://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2 ... how_detail
I'd rather not pay $50 Australian dollars for that thing. The reason why I want a D-Sub 15-Pin version of the RT5X is to not have to deal with the voltage issues that come with Scart. We won't need expensive converters, cables, or adapters, and we could say goodbye to Shart forever.
I may yet cave in to beautiful OLED world where I also want D-Sub 15 support and not Scart. The linked converter from notable Tim W. looks fine but $50 + $22 Australian cheapest option shipping to US isn't going to happen. Not to mention any device you tack on increases signal noise.

I'm happy with $25 SNES and PS2 VGA multiouts from maxtherabbit and $9 StarTech or Monoprice VGA cables that no retro cable maker attempts to compete with. World outside of EU+AUS shouldn't be forced into $40 Scart cables lacking uniform quality control or a locking mechanism. Bundling audio with video in small enclosure requires more shielding to prevent 50/60 Hz audio buzz.
strayan wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:What would it do with 75 Ohm sync signals?
I don’t have an answer to that but if your device outputs attenuated csync why wouldn’t you just buy a cheap vga to scart adapter or cable?
I can't ask the reverse to buy Scart to VGA. Converter attenuates 5V (TTL) sync down to 1V (75 ohm) sync. That sync regeneration isn't stated means it's safe to assume it reduces the voltage via a resistor, which means 75 ohm sync can't pass through. Lesser issue is not citing it expects csync on pin 13 even though is standard. Can't handle 480p/576p sync but I understand to keep costs down as that would require a second chip and a switch.
strayan
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by strayan »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:Lesser issue is not citing it expects csync on pin 13 even though is standard. Can't handle 480p/576p sync but I understand to keep costs down as that would require a second chip and a switch.
The sync signal range blocker feature can be disabled by closing solder jumper J1 so 480p shpuld work.
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kitty666cats
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product/vga2scart/

There's also these, which seem to consistently be overlooked... any interested parties could just message the seller and check if the things also accept / pass through RGBS at whichever level sync voltage you're feeding it.
Last edited by kitty666cats on Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
thchardcore
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thchardcore »

kitty666cats wrote:https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product/vga2scart/

There's also these, which seem to consistently be overlooked... any interested parties could just message the seller and check if the things also accept through RGBS at whichever level sync voltage you're feeding it.
Using one of these with a dreamcast. Safely outputs sync on scart to Gscart/OSSC.
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kitty666cats
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

Anyone messed around with the 1920x1440p output from these on PC CRT monitors via a HDMI to VGA? I don't have one at the moment (a 5x, that is... I do have a 110kHz PC CRT) but I am curious if -

1. PC CRTs generally 'jive' with the 1920x1440p 60Hz reduced blanking timings (CVT...?). From what I have seen on a processor I own that can output such a signal 'yes', but I didn't yet get around to dialing-in the timings/settings for a perfectly centered & un-cropped image from a 240p source

2. If, generally, most any HDMI to VGAs you folks have used seem to cooperate with said res/frequency. In official documentation/specs/advertising, HDMI to VGAs will (unsurprisingly) mention the things topping out at 1080p or 1920x1200. I have seen very few that specifically mention 1440p support (seen some that mention 1920x1440p, but I think only one that mentions 2160x1440p)

This is mostly just morbid curiousity, I know that usually when people are trying to see the upper-end of pushing DACs to their limits these days it's over Displayport or USB-C at the source.

Will be interesting to see when these start getting implemented, if ever -
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Balleratt
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Balleratt »

PearlJammzz wrote:Bloodlines I think has an interlaced mode for the map before each level starts? Regardless, on CX I get no cutouts.

BFI works super well on the CX. You can boost the brightness (can't remember the setting name) if you wish by using https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorContro ... /README.md. It allows you to enable a backlight boost setting to low, medium, or high which gives you ~+50, +100, or +150nits respectfully. This makes BFI + scanlines on RT5x look great. Works amazingly with the mister too.

BFI with 60hz content works well as it will just give you a black frame every other frame. The motion resolution is ALMOST CRT-like. It's not exact but it's close. Use 240p test suite to see this. Have BFI off and use the scroll test. Look at the mountains in the background as you increase the scrolling speed. You'll see the mountains blur to ~3 wide. When you have BFI enabled you'll be able to see the mountain peak pretty clearly without little to no blur. If you have a CRT test it on there as well as a control. It's pretty amazing and adds a lot to the feel of the games. Only down side if you increase input latency by ~6ms I believe it is. Just under half a frame. Not ideal for competition play but you're looking at ~18ms using RT5X, BFI, on a CX. Not bad for end to end latency unless you're speed running or something.
Do you have any sort of walktrough on settings this up? I've downloaded the Color Control app and connected it to my LG CX 65", but then I am at a lass on where to go from there.
sgtzebracakes
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by sgtzebracakes »

New to the retrotink 5x scene. Will an apple iphone charge cube safely power the 5x?
ripburger
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by ripburger »

sgtzebracakes wrote:New to the retrotink 5x scene. Will an apple iphone charge cube safely power the 5x?
This should be fine. The manual states that it needs something to provide 1 amp of current, and looking at an Apple iPhone charger in front of me, it outputs 5V at 1 amp. Currently, I have mine plugged into a USB port of my receiver which provides the same power output, and I have no issues.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Hey Mikey-Mike, is there any chance you will be giving the retro community a huge Christmas present in the form of the new menu system firmware you've been hard at work on?
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Josh128 wrote:Hey Mikey-Mike, is there any chance you will be giving the retro community a huge Christmas present in the form of the new menu system firmware you've been hard at work on?
According to his Twitter, he's trying to get it out before the end of the year and I believe he is. He's showing the new firmware/new menu on Tuesday 12/21 on a live stream with RetroRGB Bob.
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WobblingPixels
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by WobblingPixels »

RT5X Season 2 firmware premiers Tuesday 12PM PST during a live stream with @retrorgb
.

We’ll go over all the new features as we take a step towards a post integer scaling world, new CRT simulation modes and more Grinning face with smiling eyes

Once again, thank you to everyone for making this all possible!!
https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 8196798466
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Genius among geniuses. I cant wait for this!
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Tempest_2084
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Tempest_2084 »

This thing just keeps getting better and better. I can't wait.

I keep hoping that one of these new scanline modes will help hide the led ghosting I'm getting on my crappy TV.
markpaterson
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by markpaterson »

Does the RT5X allow different settings to be saved per input? I can't find any mention of this anywhere. I know the device is built to be as plug and play as possible, but I feel like this would be a nice quality of life improvement.

For example, I have my Wii connected to the component inputs, my C64 to the S-Video, and SNES/NES/Genesis/N64/Amiga to the RGB SCART (via a scart selector).

I have the RGB SCART settings just how I like it (1080p OVER, Generic 4:3, Sharp interpolation, Slot Mask) but I like to use entirely different settings for the Wii (16:9, Soft interpolation, etc). Each time I switch inputs I have to modify several settings in the menu, which is tedious and slow.

Does anybody know if the new upcoming firmware has this feature? Seems such an obvious feature.
ripburger
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by ripburger »

Does the RT5X allow different settings to be saved per input? I can't find any mention of this anywhere. I know the device is built to be as plug and play as possible, but I feel like this would be a nice quality of life improvement.

For example, I have my Wii connected to the component inputs, my C64 to the S-Video, and SNES/NES/Genesis/N64/Amiga to the RGB SCART (via a scart selector).

I have the RGB SCART settings just how I like it (1080p OVER, Generic 4:3, Sharp interpolation, Slot Mask) but I like to use entirely different settings for the Wii (16:9, Soft interpolation, etc). Each time I switch inputs I have to modify several settings in the menu, which is tedious and slow.

Does anybody know if the new upcoming firmware has this feature? Seems such an obvious feature.
Sounds like it by some of the previews on Twitter. Hopefully, the stream on Tuesday will show this feature.
markpaterson
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by markpaterson »

ripburger wrote: Sounds like it by some of the previews on Twitter. Hopefully, the stream on Tuesday will show this feature.
I hadn't heard about that, so thanks for the heads up! Just checked the tweet. Oh boy. Even without this feature it looks like one hell of an upgrade! https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 8196798466
hypotc
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by hypotc »

Anyone had any luck with sharp text using the N64 320 Sampling on the Retrotink 5X?

Here's a couple of photos I took of the text on the star select screen in Super Mario 64 (NTSC). You can see that the text smears and it almost looks like shadow next to the text. Generic 4:3 looks even more blurry.

IMGUR ALBUM

This is using:
  • NUJ1 Nintendo 64 with an RGB amp (I think it's a 7314 or 7316)
    "Nintendo N64 RGB SCART cable for RGB modified NTSC console Sync on Luma" Bought from retrogamingcables.co.uk in 2017.
Retrotink 5X settings:
  • N64 320 Sampling
    1080p (OVER)
    Interpolation: Sharp
    Video LPF: Light (The best looking one so far)
Same thing happens on other resolutions too.
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digitron
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by digitron »

WobblingPixels wrote:
RT5X Season 2 firmware premiers Tuesday 12PM PST during a live stream with @retrorgb
.

We’ll go over all the new features as we take a step towards a post integer scaling world, new CRT simulation modes and more Grinning face with smiling eyes

Once again, thank you to everyone for making this all possible!!
https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 8196798466
Scaling/Cropping!!!
Hallelujah
Thanks Mike!!!!!!!
bahamutfan64
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bahamutfan64 »

hypotc wrote:Anyone had any luck with sharp text using the N64 320 Sampling on the Retrotink 5X?

Here's a couple of photos I took of the text on the star select screen in Super Mario 64 (NTSC). You can see that the text smears and it almost looks like shadow next to the text. Generic 4:3 looks even more blurry.

IMGUR ALBUM

This is using:
  • NUJ1 Nintendo 64 with an RGB amp (I think it's a 7314 or 7316)
    "Nintendo N64 RGB SCART cable for RGB modified NTSC console Sync on Luma" Bought from retrogamingcables.co.uk in 2017.
Retrotink 5X settings:
  • N64 320 Sampling
    1080p (OVER)
    Interpolation: Sharp
    Video LPF: Light (The best looking one so far)
Same thing happens on other resolutions too.
Might be a limitation of the RGB mod not having the deblur feature, which cleans up all of that smearing.
hypotc
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by hypotc »

I saw someone having a similar problem with their OSSC and they got it fixed by adjusting some values. I wonder if the new firmware allows for some fine tuning of the h.sampling phase etc.
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Fudoh
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Fudoh »

has to be based on different N64 revisions. Some N64 machines just require a completely different sampling setting. My original RGB modded N64 from back in the 90s just looked like crap on the Framemeister (and we're talking sharp 2D titles like Bangaioh here), while a much newer N64 on a friend's setup looked really good.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Interesting about the N64, first time I have ever heard that, like different HW revs have different horizontal resolution outputs?

Back to the 5X though. For some odd reason, on my 60" 1080p Sammy plasma, I can get perfect 240p integer and polyphase scanlines in (I believe) 1080p UNDER, but I am left with the letterboxed 960p image as normal. Same thing with 480p. In 1080p OVER though, for some reason the scanlines are uneven. Shouldnt I be able to get integer scanlines (3game/2blank) while just cutting off a bit (120 of the 1080 available lines) of the top and bottom of the image? No matter what I try, I am unable to achieve that on either of my 1080 sets. I have tried the different stretch options on the set itself in combination with the different modes of the 5x and have been unsuccessful.

Maybe the new zoom/pan options will be able to aid in this?
Last edited by Josh128 on Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

Yeah I'm skeptical. This the first time I've ever seen someone mention different sampling rates by N64 version. Maybe that specific console was just jacked up
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by TooBeaucoup »

hypotc wrote:Anyone had any luck with sharp text using the N64 320 Sampling on the Retrotink 5X?

Here's a couple of photos I took of the text on the star select screen in Super Mario 64 (NTSC). You can see that the text smears and it almost looks like shadow next to the text. Generic 4:3 looks even more blurry.

IMGUR ALBUM

This is using:
  • NUJ1 Nintendo 64 with an RGB amp (I think it's a 7314 or 7316)
    "Nintendo N64 RGB SCART cable for RGB modified NTSC console Sync on Luma" Bought from retrogamingcables.co.uk in 2017.
Retrotink 5X settings:
  • N64 320 Sampling
    1080p (OVER)
    Interpolation: Sharp
    Video LPF: Light (The best looking one so far)
Same thing happens on other resolutions too.
In my opinion, N64 is just such an ugly beast that there's only so much any scaler is going to be able to do, even with optimal timings. Also, in my experience, some games look far better than others with the optimal timing mode. Personally, I think optimal timing makes some N64 games look worse. I find many games look better in generic mode. Here are some pics I took. I installed Tim Worthington's RGB board with Borti's deblur software a few months ago in my N64. Motherboard revision NUS-CPU-04. These are 1080p over, light LPF, sharp interpolation.

You'll want to "Load full resolution" after opening the links to see the full quality.

Deblur off

https://ibb.co/n86d4jp

Deblur on

https://ibb.co/YhxQVJT

And here's a top and bottom I did of Mischief makers with optimal timings. The top half is deblur off and the bottom have is deblur on. Again, make sure to "Load full resolution" if it gives you the option

https://ibb.co/WP4mLnw

Personally, I think scanlines of any kind are a must when playing the N64 on an HDTV. They definitely help blend the N64's muddy visuals and make it far nicer to look at.
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