RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[Josh128]

^
Agree.
We dont really know anything until Mike diagnoses the unit and reports his findings.

Let's get back OT about the 5X Pro, this thread isn't and shouldn't be about the merits of SCART. Talk of removing the SCART port is crazy, it would require most of the end users to spend a bunch of money on cables, switches, etc. SCART is not everyones favorite physical interface, but like it or not, its become the standard for the majority of retro RGB setups. It is here to stay.

[fernan1234]

Let's get back OT about the 5X Pro, this thread isn't and shouldn't be about the merits of SCART. Talk of removing the SCART port is crazy, it would require most of the end users to spend a bunch of money on cables, switches, etc. SCART is not everyones favorite physical interface, but like it or not, its become the standard for the majority of retro RGB setups. It is here to stay.

I followed the conversation yesterday and I'm 100% sure no one suggested removing the SCART port. Some of us just talked about the various disadvantages of SCART, both from the physical form factor and the inconsistency in manufacturing of hobby cables/accessories, but that was all.

That said, it is kind of regressive thinking to say something like "well, this thing is far from ideal, and there are multiple, strictly superior alternatives, but since it's already widespread might as well just stick with it." At the very least you'll agree that's not how progress is achieved in any field.
But yeah don't worry, at least on our RT5Xs SCART is not going anywhere.

[Josh128]

It was indeed mentioned, with a *disclaimer*. It wasnt asked for or requested (I didnt say that), but it was definitely talked about.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=957

[fernan1234]

It was indeed mentioned, with a *disclaimer*. True, it wasnt asked for or requested, but it was mentioned. It was talked about, thats all I said.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=957

That's not quite the same intention, IMO, but OK. BTW, even if your favorite device were to omit the SCART port it would not mean that users need to spend a bunch of money on cables, switches, etc. as you said before. Their entire SCART setups could remain intact, and would simply need to add a breakout cable or adapter at the end of the chain to go into the device. For example, as also mentioned on the post you linked to, RGBS could be supported via RCA jacks, in which case users would just need a SCART to RCA breakout cable, or commonly found SCART to BNC cables with BNC-to-RCA adapters.

[maxtherabbit]

I don’t see this getting any better if everyone switches to DE-15, since very little OEM hardware is going to use that in a standard RGBHV way. Someone here was even tossing around the idea of sending audio down a VGA cable. Good lord, you aren’t going to know WHAT’S coming in or going out.

Whether it's used for RGBHV or RGBS really isn't relevant, both have well established support in professional equipment. And connecting a sink device that requires separate sync to a c-sync source (or vice versa) won't damage anything, it just may not work.

Agreed on the audio though, that's a terrible idea.

I know we like to assume that all users are idiots, that way there’s no barrier to entry, but I think if you’re going to take on importing systems, adapting between video standards, and god forbid sourcing or making custom cables, you should at least be required to know Ohm’s Law, how to use a soldering iron, and how to use a multimeter. If you don’t, you’re probably not technically qualified to operate any of this stuff. (That’s a curable disease though. It ain’t rocket science.)

That's fantasy dude, over half of THIS FORUM doesn't know ohm's law and thinks 75R means the amplitude of the sync.

[bmp02]

Thanks @eightbitminiboss @TooBeaucoup for answering part of my questions!


What I'd still like to know:
* I still see MV1C recommended for MVS users, I'm using MV2F though, with DFO. So I'd like to know if all MVS sync problems are related to the off spec frequency, in other words, no problems expected using DFO?

* Any options planned for horizontal shifting alongside a mask option, to properly center off centered games?

[TooBeaucoup]

Thanks @eightbitminiboss @TooBeaucoup for answering part of my questions!


What I'd still like to know:
* I still see MV1C recommended for MVS users, I'm using MV2F though, with DFO. So I'd like to know if all MVS sync problems are related to the off spec frequency, in other words, no problems expected using DFO?

* Any options planned for horizontal shifting alongside a mask option, to properly center off centered games?

I don't have any Neo Geo gear so I haven't looked into any of that, personally.

As for the masking options, Mike has been pretty insane about tweaking firmware and adding features, so I'd expect to see some of that at some point.

[Josh128]

Thanks @eightbitminiboss @TooBeaucoup for answering part of my questions!


What I'd still like to know:
* I still see MV1C recommended for MVS users, I'm using MV2F though, with DFO. So I'd like to know if all MVS sync problems are related to the off spec frequency, in other words, no problems expected using DFO?

* Any options planned for horizontal shifting alongside a mask option, to properly center off centered games?

I don't have any Neo Geo gear so I haven't looked into any of that, personally.

As for the masking options, Mike has been pretty insane about tweaking firmware and adding features, so I'd expect to see some of that at some point.

Mike has done more for the 5X in a couple months than Micomsoft has done for the entire life of the FM, and he's not stopping anytime soon. Very impressive.

[incrediblehark]

Really excited to see 540p will soon be a reality! As a recent owner of an HDCRT this is a feature I’m eagerly awaiting. Would offer to test as well, but I don’t have a 5x yet. Checking the site/Twitter every day for an update on stock though.

I wanted to ask if anyone has tried X68000 on this yet, and if so how were the results? I have an Audio Authority vga to component converter that works great as is other than picture shift. However I get no display on my 40xbr800 when connected to my ossc. Reversing the connection (ossc into AA) gives a picture but the ossc is very jumpy/stutters, even on test pattern. Would love to see some x68k on a 40” crt!

[thchardcore]

SCART sucks but live with it.

[bmp02]

Thanks @eightbitminiboss @TooBeaucoup for answering part of my questions!


What I'd still like to know:
* I still see MV1C recommended for MVS users, I'm using MV2F though, with DFO. So I'd like to know if all MVS sync problems are related to the off spec frequency, in other words, no problems expected using DFO?

* Any options planned for horizontal shifting alongside a mask option, to properly center off centered games?

I don't have any Neo Geo gear so I haven't looked into any of that, personally.

As for the masking options, Mike has been pretty insane about tweaking firmware and adding features, so I'd expect to see some of that at some point.

Awesome, hope Mike reads it then

[vol.2]

I like the look of this weird composite/LCD overlay: https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 5847105538

[fernan1234]

That actually looks like a really sweet compromise for those who don't like obvious scanline gaps but also don't like super raw pixels. I'll mess around with it.

[vol.2]

It's stuff like this that makes scalers and video equipment fun. It makes me want to replay my NES catalog with the overlay. I'm like 95% of the way through Metroid Fusion atm and I wish I'd had that to mess with.

[Josh128]

It's stuff like this that makes scalers and video equipment fun. It makes me want to replay my NES catalog with the overlay. I'm like 95% of the way through Metroid Fusion atm and I wish I'd had that to mess with.

Damn right it is. I can't wait to be able to test the upcoming 540p/1080i modes Mike is working on. I love this shit.

[mikechi2]

I seem to have touched off a firestorm here. Let's not jump to conclusions about anything until Mike gets my unit back and takes a look at it. All I know is that the SCART port stopped working (well it does sound but that's it). I'm using Insurrection SCART cables so I doubt it's a TTL sync issue (I was uber paranoid about that if you recall my other thread). I'm hoping it's something as simple as a component just went bad,

If for some reason it can't be fixed or it happens again I can always use my Shinybow to turn my RGB SCART into Component and route that through the 5x Pro. I'd rather not have the signal go through an extra device, but it's always an option (plus I use the Shinybow on my CRT still so I can play light gun games).

For anyone still tracking this or come across a similar problem, the problem was the device was flashed to version 1.28, which caused a detection bug in some units. Version 1.29 came out the next day which is fine (as is rolling back to the previous version). So easy fix and SCART lives another day.

[Tempest_2084]

Update on my unit. SCART works fine for Mike so we think it was a bad firmware. I had 1.28 on it and I guess that had some detection issue so 1.29 was released the next day and I never saw it. Hopefully the new firmware fixes things for me.

[Josh128]

Thats odd-- so when you first flashed to 1.28 you had no problems, but then they manifested after some time? Or had you not used the SCART input at first when going to 1.28 and then when you finally did, thats when you noticed the issue? In any case, I'm glad to hear its not a hardware failure.

[Tempest_2084]

Thats odd-- so when you first flashed to 1.28 you had no problems, but then they manifested after some time? Or had you not used the SCART input at first when going to 1.28 and then when you finally did, thats when you noticed the issue? In any case, I'm glad to hear its not a hardware failure.

I didn't use SCART after I flashed 1.28, just my GC to test out those new GB Player modes and my GC uses Component. I did try SCART until later when I reported the problem. I still wonder what that high pitched noise I heard was though. Maybe some weird SCART audio interference?

[NewSchoolBoxer]

...BTW, even if your favorite device were to omit the SCART port it would not mean that users need to spend a bunch of money on cables, switches, etc. as you said before. Their entire SCART setups could remain intact, and would simply need to add a breakout cable or adapter at the end of the chain to go into the device. For example, as also mentioned on the post you linked to, RGBS could be supported via RCA jacks, in which case users would just need a SCART to RCA breakout cable, or commonly found SCART to BNC cables with BNC-to-RCA adapters.

Sorry I'm late to the SCART hate campaign trail but THIS. The only form of RGB I knew existed was VGA/DE-15 until I internet searched my way here in 2019. Made me angry seeing how expensive SCART switches, splitters and cables were compared to VGA or DVI-A. I get that we don't have economies of scale for making analog devices in our garages, but if our hobby is going to be more accessible, the RGB ticket price has to come down. Piggybacking on "well established support in professional equipment" that maxtherabbit mentioned wouldn't hurt either.

That's cool the SCART issue was just an easily fixable firmware update. I had this whole theory about a transient current spikes I wanted to lay out that could be compounded by op amps in a LPF. Another day.

[SirNickity]

Sorry I'm late to the SCART hate campaign trail but THIS. The only form of RGB I knew existed was VGA/DE-15 until I internet searched my way here in 2019. Made me angry seeing how expensive SCART switches, splitters and cables were compared to VGA or DVI-A. I get that we don't have economies of scale for making analog devices in our garages, but if our hobby is going to be more accessible, the RGB ticket price has to come down. Piggybacking on "well established support in professional equipment" that maxtherabbit mentioned wouldn't hurt either.

SCART switches are expensive because switching video is not trivial. Very high frequencies are challenging to handle. Analog video in particular, because details matter, but HD digital is no joke either. Connectors are also expensive. And cases. Things like the gscartsw are just going to be expensive, and not a whole lot would change if it were HDB or RCA or whatever. The only way you’ll get something cheaper is if it’s second-hand and considered worthless (which will be luck of the draw), or mass-produced garbage that probably won’t work as well. Brand new, quality VGA KVM switches that give a hoot about signal integrity aren’t exactly free, usually won’t switch audio, and may only handle RGBHV. That’s not ideal.

Yeah, SCART is a little bit the Wild West, but that isn’t SCART’s fault. The consoles are all outputting whatever they feel like, the cables are being manufactured by people often with no formal education in EE, just some motivation and an itch to fire up their first oscilloscope, and the users are untrained and just plugging stuff in any which way that fits, or could be made to fit with the aid of adapters they found on eBay. That situation doesn’t change if you put a different end on the cable.

If you don’t like SCART, adapt it to something else, and use whatever equipment you want. This ire for SCART is misplaced frustration. It’s a perfectly good connector, conveniently carrying all the relevant signals in a mostly standardized way, assuming whoever made the cable/device knew what they were doing and used quality connectors. If either of those is not true, all bets are off regardless what connector is on it.

[vol.2]

^^^

You are completely missing the point. There are much higher quality DE15 switchers available (in general) than there are SCART anything, and at much better prices. The vast majority of professional video equipment uses DE15 and BNC, not SCART.

[Guspaz]

Newly made 8-port active auto-switching DE15 switchers with dual simultaneous outputs that are cheaper and with better video quality than the gcompsw or gscartsw? I'd be very surprised if that was the case.

The vast majority of professional video equipment is BNC... for composite video or SDI. From what I've seen, BNC RGB was never a thing, and DE-15 was only ever used at most for like, the PGM or multi-view output or something. But then, my limited perspective was from the live video direction.

[maxtherabbit]

Newly made 8-port active auto-switching DE15 switchers with dual simultaneous outputs that are cheaper and with better video quality than the gcompsw or gscartsw? I'd be very surprised if that was the case.

The vast majority of professional video equipment is BNC... for composite video or SDI. From what I've seen, BNC RGB was never a thing, and DE-15 was only ever used at most for like, the PGM or multi-view output or something. But then, my limited perspective was from the live video direction.

who gives a shit about newly made? the whole point is to use surplus equipment to save money

and yes extron has exactly what you stipulated, although the video quality isn't going to be "better" it will just be equally unsullied

[fernan1234]

and yes extron has exactly what you stipulated, although the video quality isn't going to be "better" it will just be equally unsullied

Also worth noting that a used Extron "VGA" switcher beats any hobbyist switch by a good margin in most factors that matter, with no downsides, being available much more cheaply too. And if you look hard enough you can even find NOS units, which will also be cheaper than the hobby alternatives that have to be priced high because they don't have economies of scale.

[Guspaz]

So most of the switches I see on eBay either lack autoswitching, or fall far short of the number of inputs.

The only one I've managed to find that has 8 inputs, 2 outputs, and autoswitching, is the SW8 VGA Ars, of which there are no units for sale.

If you abandon the autoswitching requirement, it looks like you could get an 8x4 matrix VGA switcher for around $150 CAD after all the shipping cost and import duties and brokerage fees, though again, no autoswitching. It is quite a bit cheaper than a gcompsw or gscartsw, though.

[bobrocks95]

So most of the switches I see on eBay either lack autoswitching, or fall far short of the number of inputs.

The only one I've managed to find that has 8 inputs, 2 outputs, and autoswitching, is the SW8 VGA Ars, of which there are no units for sale.

If you abandon the autoswitching requirement, it looks like you could get an 8x4 matrix VGA switcher for around $150 CAD after all the shipping cost and import duties and brokerage fees, though again, no autoswitching. It is quite a bit cheaper than a gcompsw or gscartsw, though.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304013758958?h ... x#shpCntId

You can also daisy-chain 2 6-port Ars for 11 inputs and the same full rack size, they're generally much more available.

[vol.2]

Extron stuff (there are other brands out there as well) also has good computer interface software in most cases. You want to automate that?

[parodius]

Hey, one thing that has been bothering me regarding the 240p downscaling feature :
I can't see any effect by switching from 16:9 to 4:3 sampling modes, when downscaling from 480p (720x480), with the latest firmware (1.29).
The full 16:9 picture is still compressed horizontally into a 4:3 ratio.

It's supposed to work as shown by Bob in this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwNrqIjxBaA&t=1253s

Maybe it's due to my setup.
My source is either a PS4 Slim or a Switch :
Source => HDFury 3 (component output) => RT5XPro => Tendak HDMI to VGA DAC => DE-15 input of Martin Hejnfelt's BKM-129X clone, installed in a PVM-20L5

Any clues ?

[Fudoh]

I think the cropping feature Bob showed in the video is for (1280x)720p sources only.
720px wide sources retain their full horizontal resolution when downscaling, so there's nothing to crop on 480p sources.