RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Steamflogger Boss
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

darcagn wrote:review
Admittedly it's on me for not looking into it more but not having a power supply with it is pretty disappointing. I actually don't think I have a single one on hand. I actually didn't have a single USB-C cable until recently when I needed it for a Switch hack. I've accumulated so much electronics *crap* that I really try to not buy something unless I truly need it for something immediately.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thebigcheese »

At least with most bigger brands, the lack of a power supply is to help cut down on e-waste. If you're upgrading phones, for example, usually the old power supply is just fine. In the case of the RT5X, maybe the idea is that most TVs and monitors have USB ports and could power it? If that's the case, I get it, but if it needs more power than that, then I think it should probably come with one.
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darcagn
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by darcagn »

thebigcheese wrote:At least with most bigger brands, the lack of a power supply is to help cut down on e-waste. If you're upgrading phones, for example, usually the old power supply is just fine. In the case of the RT5X, maybe the idea is that most TVs and monitors have USB ports and could power it? If that's the case, I get it, but if it needs more power than that, then I think it should probably come with one.
As I understand, typically USB1/2 ports can only be assumed to deliver 500mA, and the RetroTINK manual says the RT5X-Pro uses "< 800 mA" but:
Use a high-quality USB power source capable of supplying at least 1 A of current to your RT5X. Low quality USB power supplies may result in device malfunction and/or video noise. It is also important to use a good quality USB cable. Poorly manufactured cables drop voltage under high currents, which may result in video noise and device malfunction.
Testing this, I was successfully able to power the RetroTINK5X-Pro via USB ports on my 55" Vizio 4KTV and a 32" Insignia 1080P. A 32" Dynex 1080P wouldn't power it via its USB port, causing the RetroTINK LED to flash white/red instead of green. The USB port on the front of my receiver says 500mA and doesn't power the RT5X-Pro at all. The USB3.0 ports on my two Dell monitors both power the RT5X-Pro as I would expect them to.

So, to be fair, you will likely be able to power the RT5X-Pro without a brick using your TV. You do only get a 3ft USB cable, however, so if you have a mounted TV, it may not easily reach from the back of the TV to a platform you can place it on. It might be cool to place behind a TV and mount to the TV as a permanent way of giving that TV old school input, but the case design doesn't give you a whole lot of options for mounting it and as I mentioned before you'd need to be able to easily remove it from its setup to bring it to another room for firmware upgrading unless you own a laptop that runs Microsoft Windows.

Since the max output res of this thing is 1440p I figured I'd give that mode a try on my native 1440p Dell S2719DGF panel in Super Fast mode. Source is an NES front loader with an NESRGB mod and Retro Access SCART cable with csync for sync. All are using "Sharp" interpolation. Photos taken on an iPhone 12 mini.

generic 4:3, no scanlines
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, no scanlines -- using this mode is much sharper than generic 4:3
it's not perfect though: generic 4:3 vs. snes/pce/ps1 256 mode
generic 4:3, polyphase 50% scanlines
generic 4:3, polyphase 90% scanlines
generic 4:3, integer scanlines
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, polyphase 50% scanlines
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, polyphase 90% scanlines
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, integer scanlines


Seeing these shots and the sharpness possible in some modes makes me wonder if the settings could be dialed in better if there were more fine tunings like an OSSC device. They could be kept in an advanced/pro menu to keep the main menu as simple as possible. Custom settings could be saved to SD and shared in the community or be included as presets if Mike collects the most popular community presets. The competition offers these types of options, but there's no SD support here, so we'll have to settle for dreaming, or perhaps Mike will add more in the future. Another reason why, as much as I am loving this device so far, it should have been the RetroTINK5X non-pro in my opinion.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

The 90% scanlines are my cup of tea. I do see some blue on the right and red on the left of the yellows and blues in a lot of your shots. Is that produced by the 5X or is that normal on your TV?
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by BuckoA51 »

We have multi-region PSUs in stock if anyone needs them, it's just the OSSC adapter with a barrel to USB jack adapter cable but obviously guaranteed to have enough juice for RT5X usage and Markus and I have both tested it and found it doesn't add noise. Also fully CE compliant.

As for the SCART adapters a few folks asked for that shouldn't be a problem but I'm just waiting to hear back from Mike on the CE certificate stuff first.
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
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darcagn
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by darcagn »

Josh128 wrote:The 90% scanlines are my cup of tea. I do see some blue on the right and red on the left of the yellows and blues in a lot of your shots. Is that produced by the 5X or is that normal on your TV?
It's produced by the 5X, I believe that's a side effect of how it's handling horizontal sampling in Generic 4:3 mode. That's why I wish the settings could be dialed in more.

Here are the same pictures captured by a cheap generic capture card.

generic 4:3 no scanlines
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, no scanlines
generic 4:3, polyphase 50%
generic 4:3, polyphase 90%
generic 4:3, integer
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, polyphase 50%
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, polyphase 90%
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode, integer

and zoomed in shots at the transitions you're describing:

generic 4:3
snes/pce/ps1 256 mode
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Fudoh »

It's produced by the 5X, I believe that's a side effect of how it's handling horizontal sampling in Generic 4:3 mode
no, it's a chroma shift or chroma upsampling error. If it was a sampling error, then you'd get a mixed color between the two pixels (so dark yellow maybe?), but here you get "phantom" colors. But Mike is on it and it's looking very promising!

Your capture card is 4:2:0 only I assume ? You don't really see this, if you're capturing into a codec with chroma subsampling (like h264 with 4:2:0). Your camera TV shots give a better rendition of what you're actually seeing.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by darcagn »

Ah, good to know! I hope to see an improvement in a future patch then.
Your capture card is 4:2:0 only I assume ? You don't really see this, if you're capturing into a codec with chroma subsampling (like h264 with 4:2:0). Your camera TV shots give a better rendition of what you're actually seeing.
It's a cheap generic USB3.0 capture device with little to no documentation, so I'd assume it's 4:2:0 only.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

I received my unit today and, as I kind of feared, there is a terrible problem with the SCART input with my DE15 RGB setup, the picture is full of noise and rolling distortion.

Mike, any ideas what may be going on here? See video below:

https://youtu.be/XX6kes9Q3YA

That's what I get with all of my 8 systems hooked up for RGB. It's not due to sync strippers being present or not because this occurs with all 8 of my RGB sources, 6 of which use cables without sync strippers. As stated in the video description, the chain is: console -> console custom DE15 RGB cable -> Extron VGA Ars switch -> DE15 to SCART cable -> RT5X -> monitor

It's worth noting that this problem doesn't happen with the SCART inputs on the OSSC as well as a 2X-SCART I used a while ago, so I can't suspect any element within my chain as the culprit.

We were definitely right about ragging on SHART! No issues with composite and component sources, but unfortunately this makes the 5X 100% unusable for my whole RGB setup.

EDIT: bypassing the Extron switch solves the problem, but this problem didn't arise before even with the 2X-SCART.
Last edited by fernan1234 on Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

fernan1234 wrote:I received my unit today and, as I kind of feared, there is a terrible problem with the SCART input with my DE15 RGB setup, the picture is full of noise and rolling distortion.

Mike, any ideas what may be going on here? See video below:

https://youtu.be/XX6kes9Q3YA

That's what I get with all of my 8 systems hooked up for RGB. It's not due to sync strippers being present or not because this occurs with all 8 of my RGB sources, 6 of which use cables without sync strippers. As stated in the video description, the chain is: console -> console custom DE15 RGB cable -> Extron VGA Ars switch -> DE15 to SCART cable -> RT5X -> monitor

It's worth noting that this problem doesn't happen with the SCART inputs on the OSSC as well as a 2X-SCART I used a while ago, so I can't suspect any element within my chain as the culprit.

We were definitely right about ragging on SHART! No issues with composite and component sources, but unfortunately this makes the 5X 100% unusable for my whole RGB setup.
Extron VGA Ars is going to boost any sync signal you feed into it to TTL levels- does your VGA to SCART cable have attenuation on the sync line to bring it down to 75 ohms?
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

bobrocks95 wrote: Extron VGA Ars is going to boost any sync signal you feed into it to TTL levels- does your VGA to SCART cable have attenuation on the sync line to bring it down to 75 ohms?
this
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

bobrocks95 wrote:Extron VGA Ars is going to boost any sync signal you feed into it to TTL levels- does your VGA to SCART cable have attenuation on the sync line to bring it down to 75 ohms?
maxtherabbit wrote:this
I've been under the impression that the sync output follows the input, but the specs do make it seem that way:
Sync
2 VGA-QXGA RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs computer video, and HDTV component video (follows input type)
2 female 15-pin HD
1.0 Vp-p for Y of component video
0.7 Vp-p for RGB and for R-Y and B-Y of component video 0.3 V to 1.5 Vp-p (follows input)
75 ohms
-43 dB @ 5 MHz
±5 mV with input at 0 offset
RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs, bi-level and tri-level sync
RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs, bi-level and tri-level sync (follows input) 1.0 V to 5.0 Vp-p
TTL: 5.0 Vp-p, unterminated
510ohms
75 ohms
47 ns 54 ns
4.2 ns
4.7 ns
Positive or negative (follows input)
However, this "VGA to SCART" cable is by a European store that makes it for use with the MiSTer and SCART TVs, which means it has to have attenuation. And like I said, I've used it on other devices that also require attenuated sync like the OSSC's SCART input and even the prior 2X-SCART.

EDIT: Dug out a VGA gender changer and got a stable picture, so bypassing the Extron VGA Ars did fix the problem after all. Very strange though that the VGA Ars doesn't cause the same problem with the two aforementioned devices, only the 5X. While I can now use the 5X, it'd be pretty inconvenient to not be able to use my auto switcher setup with it.
Mike, any chance that your DB15 adapter would address this problem?
Last edited by fernan1234 on Mon May 10, 2021 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by PixelPhoenix »

Fudoh wrote:But Mike is on it and it's looking very promising!
Glad to hear! That's excellent news.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

fernan1234 wrote: I've been under the impression that the sync output follows the input, but the specs do make it seem that way:
Possibly less sensitive to higher than normal sync levels. Do you have any way to measure the signal coming out of your Extron?

It seems really unlikely that this is a wider issue because I think we would have heard something about it on twitter already.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

vol.2 wrote:Possibly less sensitive to higher than normal sync levels. Do you have any way to measure the signal coming out of your Extron?

It seems really unlikely that this is a wider issue because I think we would have heard something about it on twitter already.
Unfortunately I don't, but I edited my previous post to confirm that bypassing the Extron VGA Ars is workaround, albeit very inconvenient.

I can only guess that the 5X is more sensitive to the sync levels that the Extron switch outputs compared to the OSSC's SCART and the 2X-SCART.

Sidenote: the 90% polyphase scanlines are fantastic, they make the 100% integer scale ones seem useless (and ugly).
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

fernan1234 wrote:However, this "VGA to SCART" cable is by a European store that makes it for use with the MiSTer and SCART TVs, which means it has to have attenuation. And like I said, I've used it on other devices that also require attenuated sync like the OSSC's SCART input and even the prior 2X-SCART.

EDIT: Dug out a VGA gender changer and got a stable picture, so bypassing the Extron VGA Ars did fix the problem after all. Very strange though that the VGA Ars doesn't cause the same problem with the two aforementioned devices, only the 5X. While I can now use the 5X, it'd be pretty inconvenient to not be able to use my auto switcher setup with it.
Mike, any chance that your DB15 adapter would address this problem?
Are you absolutely sure that the VGA-to-SCART cable has sync attenuation? AFAIK assuming your cable is not meant to do sync combining, you can check by just putting a multimeter between the input and output sync pins and seeing if you get any resistance. It sure sounds like the cable isn't doing any attenuating, since as far as I can tell the only thing the Extron switcher is changing about the sync is the voltage. Though I suppose that also means it might be regenerating sync and the RT5X doesn't like something about what it outputs.

The OSSC might still be able to lock to TTL sync even if it causes long-term damage.

Using an RGB2COMP may be a workaround.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

That's possible. I don't recall if the MiSTer IO board outputs TTL sync, with which this cable was designed to work. Unfortunately don't have a multimeter to confirm. Maybe Mike can also comment on the 2X-SCART being more tolerant than the 5X.

RGB2COMP would still be an inconvenient workaround. I think I'm going to have to wait for Mike's DB15 adapter, or stick to my GBS-C/OSSC combo until the next scalers come out.

Another sidenote: boy, coming from CRT and GBS-C/OSSC use, the triple buffer mode feels sluggish as heck with shmups, 2D platformers, etc. Framelock makes it feel closer to what I'm used to, but briefly testing SMW on SNES I was getting brief blackouts every few seconds, not sure if due to something else on my setup or framelock not liking the SNES refresh rate much.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

He might also need to measure impedance to figure it out. It can be done with a multimeter, but you'll have to setup a little circuit to do it. Easy to find out how on google.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

fernan1234 wrote:
Another sidenote: boy, coming from CRT and GBS-C/OSSC use, the triple buffer mode feels sluggish as heck with shmups, 2D platformers, etc. Framelock makes it feel closer to what I'm used to, but briefly testing SMW on SNES I was getting brief blackouts every few seconds, not sure if due to something else on my setup or framelock not liking the SNES refresh rate much.
I have a feeling most people used to gaming on strictly CRT or even GBS-C + CRT will notice lag going to flat screen, regardless of scaler. It sounds like framelock mode is absolutely essential for anything outside of RPG / strategy games. Im still waiting on mine, but curious to see how it affects lag on my plasma(s). Being able to output native res may counteract any added lag in framelock mode, but that remains to be seen.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Josh128 wrote:I have a feeling most people used to gaming on strictly CRT or even GBS-C + CRT will notice lag going to flat screen, regardless of scaler. It sounds like framelock mode is absolutely essential for anything outside of RPG / strategy games. Im still waiting on mine, but curious to see how it affects lag on my plasma(s). Being able to output native res may counteract any added lag in framelock mode, but that remains to be seen.
I meant GBS-C+OSSC with a flat panel, which is a super fast combo and doesn't make me miss using CRT in terms of lag. According to earlier comments, the triple buffer is a lot slower than the former, while framelock is not as fast but close enough that the difference may be hard to perceive most of the time. I feel like even for an RPG/strategy game the triple buffer should be avoided if at all possible, since delay in menu command response can be annoying as well.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Triple buffer adds up to around one frame of lag versus framelock. It's up to 14ms slower than the GBS-C for 240p, and should be around 4ms slower for 480i. The RT5X should be always faster than the GBS-C when in framelock mode.

The extra lag from triple buffering shouldn't be enough to be noticeable at all (it's less than one frame slower than the GBS-C in the worst case), and if you're noticing a large difference, then the problem is probably with your TV switching out of game mode or adding more latency for certain input timings.

We're talking like 18ms maximum end-to-end latency with the RT5X in triple buffer mode when Bob measured it on a BVM. That's still really fast.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Guspaz wrote:The extra lag from triple buffering shouldn't be enough to be noticeable at all (it's less than one frame slower than the GBS-C in the worst case), and if you're noticing a large difference, then the problem is probably with your TV switching out of game mode or adding more latency for certain input timings.
The flat panel I use is not a TV, it's a BVM which doesn't add processing. I can definitely tell the difference from triple buffer, I noticed it immediately jumping in SMB1.

Framelock is actually about the same as the GBS-C+OSSC combo, or the 2X. I actually couldn't tell if one is faster than the other after checking again. Nothing scientific about this obviously, just my impression as someone who mainly uses CRT.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Fudoh »

The flat panel I use is not a TV, it's a BVM which doesn't add processing. I can definitely tell the difference from triple buffer, I noticed it immediately jumping in SMB1.
yeah, but there's no reason to run SMB1 without frame lock. The buffered mode is really just a solution for games that actually do switch between various 15khz modes internally or if you want to tame a capture card. It's silly to use it, when you don't need it.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Guspaz wrote: The RT5X should be always faster than the GBS-C when in framelock mode.

The extra lag from triple buffering shouldn't be enough to be noticeable at all (it's less than one frame slower than the GBS-C in the worst case), and if you're noticing a large difference, then the problem is probably with your TV switching out of game mode or adding more latency for certain input timings.

We're talking like 18ms maximum end-to-end latency with the RT5X in triple buffer mode when Bob measured it on a BVM. That's still really fast.
On CRT vs CRT for 240p>480p w/scanlines conversion with the clockgen installed, the GBS-C only adds 10 active scanlines (0.7ms or 1/24 of a frame) of lag, not 2 ms. Im very skeptical that the 5X is any faster than that, even in the framelock mode.

Image
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Fudoh wrote: The buffered mode is really just a solution for games that actually do switch between various 15khz modes internally or if you want to tame a capture card. It's silly to use it, when you don't need it.
Is that mostly limited to PSX games?
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Fudoh »

Playstation, Saturn and N64 I would say. But it's really just such an easy toggle, so it's no problem to enable the buffer on a per game basis.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by vol.2 »

Think Dino Crisis which goes between 480i in menus to 240p in gameplay. That kind of thing. When it switches, a CRT doesn't care, it just draws it. A processor has to switch modes though, and that can mean different things, depending on what settings are idea for each resolution on your setup.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

vol.2 wrote:Think Dino Crisis which goes between 480i in menus to 240p in gameplay. That kind of thing. When it switches, a CRT doesn't care, it just draws it. A processor has to switch modes though, and that can mean different things, depending on what settings are idea for each resolution on your setup.
From what I've been able to see, even those resolution or scan rate changes are fine with framelock on. It's definitely the safe, smart choice to ship the 5X with triple buffer on as default, but everyone should be encouraged to switch to framelock immediately, and only change back to buffer for specific cases when an actual problem is encountered in playing or capturing.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by cgoffa1 »

My first post on this forum, figured I would share my initial thoughts. Got my 5x today and have tested it on a few systems. First was the N64 which looked great. My OSSC could not go above 3x when set on optimal timings. The tink worked up to 1440p (on a TCL 6 series for reference) on the optimal timing. Again looked great.

Next was my Amiga 500 (NTSC). My OSSC had a hard time locking on to sync with this system and required multiple power cycles of the system and OSSC to work. The tink had no problems, worked up to 1440p, and looked great on the Saturn 352 setting.

Lastly was my rgb molded NES. Again looked great and performed well. But I really tested to see if I could beat Mike Tyson. I, like others was concerned over any lag being added. In frame lock I gave it a try. In 3 attempts (I am a little rusty), I beat him. Really I did not notice a difference between the lag added from the tink and using the OSSC.

I have no complaints as I am quite certain firmware will expand this even further. Two things I hope are added soon are more optimal timing settings (like for the NES, mine only looked good on generic). And hopefully a way to adjust the picture to hide the unused portion of the picture.

All told I am initially quite pleased
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Jefferson »

I have a CSYNC TTL question. I have a CSYNC modded Neo Geo AES 3-6. I don't know if the CSYNC is TTL sync or not on the system from the mod. I am planning on an buying Insurrection Industries CSYNC SCART cable:

https://insurrectionindustries.com/prod ... art-cable/

Do I need to worry about damaging the RetroTINK 5X? I am not very knowledgeable on SCART or SCART cables so I figured it was better safe than sorry and to ask.
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