RGB horizontal shift control?

[Fatass]

@Dochartaigh may I ask what monitor are you using in your setup?

For everyone else, I've got an update from jochen about the problems with his rgb shifter.

The power supply he shipped it with seems to be the culprit - some customers have tried another 5v 1A psu and had better results than the included one. He is working on a solution that involves 12v conversion to 5v, he says the results are better than just replacing the 5v psu.

[buttersoft]

Not sure if i should put this in it's own thread now, but...

Eviltim's H-pos shift circuit...



https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/F90tGUDC



designed to sit in one of these enclosures...

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5PCS-ABS-Pl ... 2749.l2649

[hellbelly]

Fantastic, glad to see someone had made it, I failed miserably at putting it on a prototype board and never revisited it.

Thanks for sharing, I'll probably order some boards

I've still not find my cheap scope, what sync levels does this circuit output - is it TTL or 75ohm?

Pete

[buttersoft]

I put 75ohm C-sync in from my MiSTer, and the output doesn't really change on my scope (save to shift left-right slightly).

EDIT: also tested luma from my SFC, which works the same way. I haven't tested anything TTL though.

[hellbelly]

Thanks for looking, I guess I should have asked if the sync output levels are safe for a consumer CRT, but by the sounds of it - if the level didn’t change when you used your MiSTer cable, then I assume it is. So your MiSTer cable has 470ohm resistor on the sync signal to make it safe?

[buttersoft]

No, the mister just outputs C-sync as is - but over HDMI. I would imagine most converters are buffered. But i should probably check that, and check what level it's outputting sync at in this case. I haven't had any issues, but i'm using pro monitors not consumer TV's.

[hellbelly]

Cheers. I think the lm1881 alters the output level of the sync signal, which then needs a 470ohm resistor to bring it back down.

But then, it’s also going through the other ICs so who knows!

[buttersoft]

The MiSTer, using an AG6200-based converter as recommended, produces c-sync at about -3Vp-p. The SFC, as expected, is about -0.3Vp-p. Either one, run through Tim's circuit above, produces TTL level C-sync. Or negative TTL level, i guess, at about -5Vp-p.

It's entirely possible my old CRT scope is half-borked, it was a freebie, so if you're concerned i'd advise testing for yourself

Most monitors and TV's are going to work fine with even TTL level sync, but there are always going to be exceptions. I guess you could always add a resistor.

[hellbelly]

Cool, cheers for the info. And thanks again for doing and sharing the board - I’ve ordered some already.

Ta
Pete

[hellbelly]

Hi again buttersoft. Apologies for another question - my boards arrived today, much quicker than I thought - before I even looked to see which components I needed to buy.

Have you got an link for the the optional filter cap? I know if I build it without one, I'll still be wondering if I need one, and I've never seen a 3 pin one before, so I'm curious about it!

Thanks
Pete

[buttersoft]

The filter cap is not needed. Given power supplies can be a bit choppy i thought i'd add a spot just in case. I don't know what to recommend, someone with more smarts would have to work that out

[RGB0b]

Is anyone planning on selling one of buttersoft's boards completely assembled? I'd like to buy one and compare it to the Time Harvest box: https://www.retrorgb.com/time-harvest-p ... t-box.html

[hellbelly]

Thanks buttersoft

[buttersoft]

Is anyone planning on selling one of buttersoft's boards completely assembled? I'd like to buy one and compare it to the Time Harvest box: https://www.retrorgb.com/time-harvest-p ... t-box.html

I have some more LM1881 chips on order, and could then assemble a board minus the pot, enclosure and AV/power jacks and send it to you? I'm happy to do that, if you're happy to wire up the rest, but the LM1881's might take 6 weeks from ebay, so you wouldn't see the board for about two months... :/

[RGB0b]

LOL, well, that's about how long it might take for me to find the time to make one myself. Let me see if I can ask a friend to make me one and go from there.

Thanks for your response!

[buttersoft]

LOL, well, that's about how long it might take for me to find the time to make one myself. Let me see if I can ask a friend to make me one and go from there.

Thanks for your response!

Nah, it's no prob. TBH though i have no idea how long the delivery will actually take! Hit me up later if you get stuck somewhere, i guess.

[awe444]

Hi all, just wanted to bump this discussion. Is the Aliexpress Time Harvest shifter still the best off-the-shelf solution? Did the Arcade Forge shifter’s (power-related?) issues ever get resolved? Has anyone built and compared to buttersoft’s board?

[Fatass]

I've found that the AliExpress standalone picture shifter is still the best for horizontal shift control, but only with the more recent models that have a yellow button.

These shifters have both h-shift and v-shift knobs but the v-shift seems to jiggle the image in my experience.

others seem to have been more fortunate but the jiggle always happens on my consumer crt and it's hard to ignore

Luckily the recent picture shift units include an additional yellow button that disables vertical control. This finally resulted in a rock solid image with full left-right positioning.

Regarding the arcadeforge shifter, i talked to jochen and he sent me a sort of stepdown dongle to connect with my power supply. It made everything work again but the shift range wasn't very far in my case. He told me the shift-range had been increased in recent batches. I haven't been able to test these new units out, unfortunately, but I will do so once I have my old unit sent back.

[Tempest_2084]

Looking at Time Harvest's Ali page, all I see is this unit (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001070 ... .subject_7) which doesn't seem to have the yellow button you're talking about. Is there another place I should be looking?

Also, I use a Shinybow to convert RGB to Component for my TV. If I put something like this in the chain after the Shinybow and before the TV will it work? Some of my systems seem to want to shift the picture to the right for some reason (the NES in particular) and this would help that somewhat.

[Gunstar]

Looking at Time Harvest's Ali page, all I see is this unit (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001070 ... .subject_7) which doesn't seem to have the yellow button you're talking about. Is there another place I should be looking?

Also, I use a Shinybow to convert RGB to Component for my TV. If I put something like this in the chain after the Shinybow and before the TV will it work? Some of my systems seem to want to shift the picture to the right for some reason (the NES in particular) and this would help that somewhat.

I don't think they've updated the pictures in the listing but if you check the review from Sept 22nd it shows a model with a new V-pos/key with a yellow button

[Fatass]

I forgot to mention.

Both the AliExpress and arcadeforge shifters don't work well with the dreamcast RGB scart cable from Retro gaming cables. Nor the Behar Bros Toro box.

I think it's due to the way in which these cables have a switch that combines/converts HV into csync. It does something funny when fed through a pic shift device.

The image comes out looking interpolated and blurry. Strangely, a cheap, badly shielded dc RGB scart cable from fleabay produced better results.

This seemed to happen only when using the aforementioned cables for the dreamcast. Everyy other solution from RGC for PS2,Saturn, etc worked fine.

A power supply is also needed for the Ali shifter.

@tempest sorry I don't know as I don't have a rgbs - comp converter. It sounds workable, though.

[buttersoft]

Also, I use a Shinybow to convert RGB to Component for my TV. If I put something like this in the chain after the Shinybow and before the TV will it work?

I wouldn't have thought so? The inputs are not marked for YPbPr. It *might* work if you input Y into the Sync line, and take the Sync output to Y for the TV, but it seems like a real longshot.

[Tempest_2084]

Also, I use a Shinybow to convert RGB to Component for my TV. If I put something like this in the chain after the Shinybow and before the TV will it work?

I wouldn't have thought so? The inputs are not marked for YPbPr. It *might* work if you input Y into the Sync line, and take the Sync output to Y for the TV, but it seems like a real longshot.

Oh you're right, I didn't even notice that. So would I put this in FRONT of my shinybow before the RGB conversion?

[buttersoft]

Also, I use a Shinybow to convert RGB to Component for my TV. If I put something like this in the chain after the Shinybow and before the TV will it work?

I wouldn't have thought so? The inputs are not marked for YPbPr. It *might* work if you input Y into the Sync line, and take the Sync output to Y for the TV, but it seems like a real longshot.

Oh you're right, I didn't even notice that. So would I put this in FRONT of my shinybow before the RGB conversion?

Yes, if anything. I imagine that would work.

[Tempest_2084]

Are there any videos showing how well this shifter works (or doesn't)? I'm willing to take a risk on it since it's not expensive but I'm curious if it actually does what it says.

[awe444]

I also would love to see a quick demo video of the Aliexpress unit if anyone has or could make one.

From what I’ve read it sounds like it outputs clean attenuated CSync (acts as a sync stripper), can anyone confirm? Or will it output, e.g., sync on luma if provided that as input?

[kitty666cats]

I briefly owned one of these a while back - works and looks fine, also sent it through a RGB to component transcoder and displayed on a LCD TV as a test. I think working in a video chain like that would be a testament to it working perfectly fine (or rather, better) on any CRT

[mindfieldx]

Hi,
I've just received the Time Harvest unit (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001070 ... 8435%22%7D), I can confirm I got the unit with yellow vpos additional button, maybe pics on the site are not updated btw the "newest" in the name could maybe identify the more recent unit.
I'm using it with a Mister.
One question about the power supply polarity (on the board is reported 9-12V IN):
- vendor keep me saying on chat to use only a 12v supply with inner positive,
- another vendor of the same unit (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001779428574.html) talks about "Self-provided power supply specifications 9-12V without polarity requirements, 5.5*2.1 interface".
- some are using it with a 9v inner negative.
- I personally tested it with a 9v adapter trying both inner negative and inner positive: it works in both ways.
Question is: how can it be working in both ways? Is there something like a bridge rectifier? Is there any preferred polarity?
Thanks in advance.

[Tempest_2084]

I've put away my 27" consumer TV and decided to start using my 20" PVM because the picture is so much sharper (especially after fixing up the geometry issues). But now I'm noticing that there's no good way to center all the consoles, some like the Genesis seem to want to be shifted right, and some like the SNES tend to shift left. So I've decided to try my luck and buy an RGB shifter to see if that will help things. Is the TimeHarvest shifter still considered the best one? Would I still need a sync stripper like the ArcadeForge Sync Strike unit if I used this?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001070254969.html

[kitty666cats]

They have a sync stripper built-in that you can use when it’s plugged in. IDK if the output (when sync stripper is activated) is TTL level sync voltage like the Sync Strike is, but if yes then TTL level sync voltage isn’t anything to worry about on a PVM anyway.