RGB horizontal shift control?

[Fatass]

SFC 1 chip using 7474 bypass and restored csync.
Regular SFC using native csync.
Saturn using sync on luma cable.
N64 with 7374 RGB mod and csync.

Not sure I’ve got anything with a sync stripper built in to try.

Is there any consoles in particular that I could try?


Pete

Thanks for the info hellbelly . If you have a dreamcast, genesis or neo geo cd to try that's be sweet, no worries if you don't.

Also, I see there's a sort of input for a power supply. Do you have one hooked up, and if so what voltage/mah is it? Aliexpress doesn't seem to offer much info atm....

This aliexpress shifter is looking like go to shifter so far. I also have jochens shifter preordered too, will see how that one turns out when I receive it.

[kitty666cats]

Does the Aliexpress one have some sorta sync stripper (assuming LM1881 if anything), btw? Noticed it says something about sync on it...

[hellbelly]

Hi

Yep, the circuit has a LM1881 in it, as does the circuit by Tim that I suspect this is based on - http://members.optushome.com.au/eviltim/other/other.htm

It needs 9-12V DC, doesn't say what mah - I'm using 500 and it's working fine.

Just tried JPN DC and Mega Drive, both using csync cables and no problems adjusting the image position - to the extremes that it allows them to be adjusted.

Unfortunately I can't find my cheapo scope. I'll keep looking.

Oooh, I didn't know Arcadeforge had one too.

[andykara2003]

It needs 9-12V DC, doesn't say what mah - I'm using 500 and it's working fine.

Cheers for that, I’ll get a 500 as well. Just picked up the Arcadeforge one as well for a comparison. I despair at my OCD need to try every option with this retro gaming habit :/

[andykara2003]

So I’ve got both units now. I was surprised to find that the Aliexpress unit seems to be a much better bet than the arcadeforge, which has some issues. Firstly, the Aliexpress one has better build quality & looks quite smart - reminds me of a Gscart. Arcadeforge’s effort seems quite rough. The adjustment pot is skewed off on an angle and generally the board & finish don’t compare too well to the other unit. More importantly, though, the image flickers quite badly on the AF unit, shown in the attached video, so is completely useless. I’ll send it back; perhaps a replacement will sort it, although I’m not sure I want another one.

The only criticism about the Ali unit is that as soon as you shift left, the image gets progressively darker the further you go and the colours go off. I’ve seen this with another shifter long ago. In the real world it’s not a problem as we want to shift right, and when doing so the image is just as bright and clean as a direct connection. Plus you have the advantage of up and down controls, which the AF unit doesn’t have.

So there it is - I thought the AF unit would be better as they’re well known and have plenty of stuff online, but it’s not the case. Did you find your scope hellbelly? No worries if not, but if you ever do I’d definitely be interested to see if the sync’s OK. I just picked up a BNIB 1993 trinitron that I’m hoping will outlast me & would be gutted to damage it. Here’s the video of the Arcadeforge unit in action - the final part is just to show what happens when you toggle the sync switch:

https://i.imgur.com/ApEIkTI.mp4

[kitty666cats]

So I’ve got both units now. I was surprised to find that the Aliexpress unit seems to be a much better bet than the arcadeforge, which has some issues. Firstly, the Aliexpress one has better build quality & looks quite smart - reminds me of a Gscart. Arcadeforge’s effort seems quite rough. The adjustment pot is skewed off on an angle and generally the board & finish don’t compare too well to the other unit. More importantly, though, the image flickers quite badly on the AF unit, shown in the attached video, so is completely useless. I’ll send it back; perhaps a replacement will sort it, although I’m not sure I want another one.

The only criticism about the Ali unit is that as soon as you shift left, the image gets progressively darker the further you go and the colours go off. I’ve seen this with another shifter long ago. In the real world it’s not a problem as we want to shift right, and when doing so the image is just as bright and clean as a direct connection. Plus you have the advantage of up and down controls, which the AF unit doesn’t have.

So there it is - I thought the AF unit would be better as they’re well known and have plenty of stuff online, but it’s not the case. Did you find your scope hellbelly? No worries if not, but if you ever do I’d definitely be interested to see if the sync’s OK. I just picked up a BNIB 1993 trinitron that I’m hoping will outlast me & would be gutted to damage it. Here’s the video of the Arcadeforge unit in action - the final part is just to show what happens when you toggle the sync switch:

https://i.imgur.com/ApEIkTI.mp4

Mm, seeing as the AF one is brand new, they may have some kinks to work out - hopefully they’re made to order and it’s not one big iffy first production run!

They don’t advertise it at all, but have you checked to see if the Ali unit has an undocumented dual output feature? I wonder if the input is also switchable between the SCART / RCA RGBS... I will have to go back and read the description! Obviously not something I would try willy-nilly.

[andykara2003]

Mm, seeing as the AF one is brand new, they may have some kinks to work out - hopefully they’re made to order and it’s not one big iffy first production run!

They don’t advertise it at all, but have you checked to see if the Ali unit has an undocumented dual output feature? I wonder if the input is also switchable between the SCART / RCA RGBS... I will have to go back and read the description! Obviously not something I would try willy-nilly.

There’s definitely no switch to choose between inputs/outputs so I’m not sure how it works - I’ll contact the seller and ask them and also if there’s any documentation.

The Arcadeforge website says their unit’s been on their catalogue since 20th of May, so six months before I got mine. Not sure what’s going on there.

EDIT: I’ve just messaged the Aliexpress guy with your question and to see if there’s any more info or documentation we can have.

[hellbelly]

Still haven't found my scope, it's baffling me - it's one of those real cheap handheld ones and I found a nice zip up packet to put it in, and now I've lost it. I need to do some sorting out this weekend, I've got bits and pieces dotted around in all different rooms in various states of upgrade/repair, it's probably buried under a box.

I don't remember seeing my image darkening when shifting left. I'll try it again this weekend just to confirm. I've actually ended up with to of the Ali units, so I'll give them both a go.

I doubt it's officially dual output, a while back I made a couple of these https://github.com/arithmaldor/SCART-Splitter and there's a whole bunch of caps necessary on each of the outputs, there's nothing like that on the RGB Shifter PCB



More photos here - https://ibb.co/album/SRLnMK

Pete

[andykara2003]

Still haven't found my scope

No worries :)

I don't remember seeing my image darkening when shifting left. I'll try it again this weekend just to confirm. I've actually ended up with to of the Ali units, so I'll give them both a go.

Cheers, really appreciate it. I’m hoping mine isn’t showing weird behaviour when doing this. If yours don’t do it I don’t think I’ll be trusting mine.

I doubt it's officially dual output, a while back I made a couple of these https://github.com/arithmaldor/SCART-Splitter and there's a whole bunch of caps necessary on each of the outputs, there's nothing like that on the RGB Shifter PCB

Good to know.

[hellbelly]

Still no scope, it’s bugging me more and more now.

In the meantime - here’s a quick and dirty demo of how mine operates.

https://youtu.be/m5PDEMtyh64

[Gunstar]

Still no scope, it’s bugging me more and more now.

In the meantime - here’s a quick and dirty demo of how mine operates.

https://youtu.be/m5PDEMtyh64

That looks like it works perfectly.

[andykara2003]

Still no scope, it’s bugging me more and more now.

In the meantime - here’s a quick and dirty demo of how mine operates.

https://youtu.be/m5PDEMtyh64

No worries at all, as Gunstar says it works great anyway. Mine has this damn darkening effect going to the right which lessens my faith in my unit. I’m running across other weird anomalies as well. My PAL SNES on my BVM shifts left & right just fine with no darkening but the vertical shift is too low and won’t centre the image vertically at all. My region modded Genesis darkens to the right as well as my NTSC N64.

Sorry about the crap video, I’m on my own looking after my autistic daughter so can only take snippets of time out. I’m wondering if it’s because my N64’s region modded and my Genesis is region modded. My SNES is original but perhaps there’s an issue with me using a BVM somehow.

https://i.imgur.com/mC1lJHr.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/nE9Cq22.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/VGkAEcK.mp4

[hellbelly]

Does the PAL SNES behave the same in 50Hz mode? Is it a 1chip with the more advanced region mod? I don't remember the exact details, but a 2 chip PAL SNES will output a slightly out of spec sync signal in 60Hz mode I think (the 1chip mod includes the right oscillator I believe)? In fact, is it a wonky sync signal anyway - hence the dejitter mod to fix sync issues with the OSSC that some people have?

Hopefully someone will correct me!

[andykara2003]

Does the PAL SNES behave the same in 50Hz mode? Is it a 1chip with the more advanced region mod? I don't remember the exact details, but a 2 chip PAL SNES will output a slightly out of spec sync signal in 60Hz mode I think (the 1chip mod includes the right oscillator I believe)? In fact, is it a wonky sync signal anyway - hence the dejitter mod to fix sync issues with the OSSC that some people have?

Hopefully someone will correct me!

It’s the only console I tested that’s a bog standard unmodded console actually - so maybe that’s got something to do with the fact that it doesn’t dim. Strange that it had limited vertical adjustment but that might be to do with my setup - I’m going through a Keene scart amplifier to the BVM.

For some reason it would seem strange to me that a simple 7314 amp mod on the N64 would produce such weird behaviour with the unit.

I need to do some more testing. I have quite a few CRTs set up in the cellar with various consoles so I’ll do a proper test, directly hooking them up without anything in between.

[Gunstar]

@Andykara2003 - Someone mentioned PAL signals having issues with vertical alignment in one of the reviews on the aliexpress listing, the same problem where it's too low and can't be shifted up.

Hope you figure out why it goes dark with some signals!

[andykara2003]

@Andykara2003 - Someone mentioned PAL signals having issues with vertical alignment in one of the reviews on the aliexpress listing, the same problem where it's too low and can't be shifted up.

Thank you! That’ll make things easier, much appreciated. In that case I’ll only use NTSC stuff to test - probably be a few days.

[Fatass]

I received my arcadeforge rgb shifter yesterday, along with the optional power supply. The picture can of course be moved left or right but there's this erratic flicker that looks like horizontal lines are cascading down the screen. It was present from the get go and doesn't resolve unless of course the shifter is detached, then the image goes back to being off center again.

I tried this with a genesis, a neo geo CD and a dreamcast, all ntsc using RGB scart csync cables, all the same result.

My case isn't as bad as the flicker/flagging happening on andykara2003s n64, then again, I don't have an n64 to try out....

Emailed jochen, hopefully it's easily fixed .

[Fatass]

After taking a look at my otaku games shifter I found that the little green pcb in hellbelly's photo of the aliexpress shifter seems to be the present on both .

Which means both shifters might be using the same parts. Pity we can't see the actual chips which have been sanded.

Having said that otaku's shifter also includes additional chips, like an rgb-component converter.

Otaku scart shifter works but has screen jiggle/blurring that occurs after its been in use. During the actual shifting the image is solid and there's no anomalies, the jiggling only happens after its been left in the shifted position for a while, anywhere between a few minutes to even a half hour into play.

I'm hearing praise for the aliexpress shifter so far (OK except for the left shift darkening but I just need to shift right) so I'm wondering if those who have it have indeed used it for a long enough session to spot whether this happens.

@andykara2003 and @hellbelly, has the aliexpress shifter been jiggle-free after using it for 30min+? And can I ask if you've tried it on a regular 60hz crt or something else?

[andykara2003]

Here’s some vids - the trouble is that my setup isn’t very conventional - all my consoles are modded in some way. The SNES and Megadrive are UK units with SuperCIC/region mods. The N64, however, is a standard NTSC unit with the bog standard old fashioned 7314 amp. The N64 and the megadrive dim when moved left. Not that it matters, as we want to go right, where the image is bright and stable. It caused one of my Sonys to flicker when moved up & down, not sure why.

The megadrive & snes were in NTSC mode. The SNES image didn’t dim when moved left like the others but produced a strange effect on my Loewe as shown in the vids.

I also had a weird problem where the consumer Sony started flicking the image on & off again & even changed channels a couple of times. Could be something to do with my unusual setup - it definitely didn’t happen with my other TVs or when connected directly to my other consumer Sony. There’s a Keene scart splitter in the chain to get the image on all three CRTs. The Keenes have a great reputation and has always been perfect.

The CRTs are: BVM, consumer Sony and Loewe E3001 chassis. They’ve taken so much care to find and collect these low use units I’m a bit cautious about using the shifter in case of damage.

https://i.imgur.com/rH2Z1ym.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/A9gQ2xP.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/D0vz6M8.mp4


EDIT: I just messaged the seller with a link here to see if he’d be up for joining the conversation..

[kitty666cats]

^ Now just to be clear, is that the Aliexpress unit? Or one of the others? If it IS the AliEx unit, I'm curious to see results with the sync separator enabled (I'm assuming that big red button that says Sync enables/disables it? Or am I mistaken and it's always enabled?)

[strayan]

Hi all, been away for a while so I’m a bit out of the loop. As everyone knows, using RGB scart on a consumer CRT often will result in an image that’s shifted to the left compared with using other inputs. I’ve set the horizontal position pot on my consumer trinitron to move the image to the right as far as it’ll go, but it’s still a bit too far to the left.

Is there a unit out there that can give additional control to the horizontal position of the image so I can get it centered?

GBS-C gives you complete horizontal, vertical and zoom control as long as you’re downscaling. It’s fantastic.

[andykara2003]

^ Now just to be clear, is that the Aliexpress unit? (I'm assuming that big red button that says Sync enables/disables it?

Hi, yes it’s the Aliexpress unit - the other unit from Arcadeforge has serious problems

GBS-C gives you complete horizontal, vertical and zoom control as long as you’re downscaling. It’s fantastic.

Looks like a great unit, but we’re just looking at CRT use - 240p in, 240p out - analog only with no scaling or processing. I’m not familiar with GBS-C, but I think it’s a scaler isn’t it?

[strayan]

Looks like a great unit, but we’re just looking at CRT use - 240p in, 240p out - analog only with no scaling or processing. I’m not familiar with GBS-C, but I think it’s a scaler isn’t it?

It can be used as an upscaler, downscaler or transcoder. I use one for 480i to 240p downscaling for display on a 15khz CRT.

[andykara2003]

Looks like a great unit, but we’re just looking at CRT use - 240p in, 240p out - analog only with no scaling or processing. I’m not familiar with GBS-C, but I think it’s a scaler isn’t it?

It can be used as an upscaler, downscaler or transcoder. I use one for 480i to 240p downscaling for display on a 15khz CRT.

Nice one - will it do 240p in, 240p out with no digital processing involved?

[Dochartaigh]

Did you ever try the Extron RGB you said you had? I was just trying mine on a RGBS signal the other day and it works fine. Can even lighten and/or sharpen the image as well (which I usually have turned off). Didn't see any detrimental effects as usually too.

[andykara2003]

Did you ever try the Extron RGB you said you had? I was just trying mine on a RGBS signal the other day and it works fine. Can even lighten and/or sharpen the image as well (which I usually have turned off). Didn't see any detrimental effects as usually too.

Ahh I was wondering if that would be possible but wasn’t sure the Extron would accept 240p RGBs. So do you use a scart to Dsub-15 for input & BNC to female scart for the output?

[Dochartaigh]

Ahh I was wondering if that would be possible but wasn’t sure the Extron would accept 240p RGBs. So do you use a scart to Dsub-15 for input & BNC to female scart for the output?

I just tested 240p specifically since the other day I was trying this image shift with 480p off my modded OG Xbox which outputs RGBS via a special Frozen cable (actually a weird flavor of RGsBS so maybe that doesn't count as pure RGBS).

So on 240p RGBS consoles, tried them on 2x Extron RGB 203 Rxi's (one set for DDSP on I think, and the other with that off so I can shift the image) and SNES didn't work ("no signal" shown on the 203), Saturn worked, went back to SNES and it then worked... NES worked, Genesis wouldn't work... SNES wouldn't work again (but then did work on another try lol... and I made sure to launch a game - since I think the SD2SNES menu is in some weird 512x448 mode and I wanted straight 240p and that didn't help again).... so sorry to say I might have jumped the gun and Extron RGB's don't like 240p RGBS 100% of the time.

This is weird as I know the mod of the CRT Gaming reddit uses a 203 (or similar Extron) to center either his MAME setup, or his real arcade boards (forget which, maybe both), but could be similar to how the Extron RGB's only like some lower res signals and not others. There's also some internal jumpers in the 203's dealing with sync but I honestly don't comprehend what the manual says about those.

I know there's some simple circuits to split RGBS to RGBHV, and would be curious to see if the Extron RGB when fed pure RGBHV would then take ANY (even low res) signal – or if it's still picky. Problem is I would normally use an Extron RGB to begin with to do something like this myself as that's what I have on hand! I know the Extron RGB can take RGBS as an input (manual also says this, and even says "Horizontal frequency 15 kHz to 150 kHz, Vertical frequency 40 Hz to 140 Hz").

**EDIT** forgot to even answer how mine is setup. My console cables either end in 4x RGBS BNC's, or use SCART to BNC breakout adapters. Everything gets plugged into the Extron Crosspoint 3232 switcher. Crosspoint then outputs to the Extron RGB's via an Extron 5xBNC (RGBHV) to VGA cable (Extron RGB's have VGA/DB15 inputs only - output are BNC's).

[Fatass]

@andykara2003 thanks again for your vids and setup info, much appreciated.

BTW to those who might be wondering, I currently have 3 image shifters, they are:

1. extron 201 rgb rxi (using arcadeforge sync strike+vga cable for input, output using bnc-vga adapter to a UMSA, to scart)
2. otaku-games scart switch with inbuilt picture shift knobs (scart output, needs psu) and
3. rgb shifter (scart output, needs psu) from arcadeforge.

None of them deliver perfect results. Yet.

Extron : doesn't like 240p signals half the time and has weird flowing image. Mainly use it for 480i. When adsp is turned on I can center the image but I get 20 percent of the top image severely distorted, like it's bending away.

Otaku-games switch w/pic shift: image can be shifted, looks the best and behaves the best until you start playing for a while and find it jiggling at times.

Arcadeforge: wierd flicker, makes vertical objects look wavy/pulsating.

It should be noted that I'm using a standard definition, budget consumer crt (Teac ct-f6860s) from the early 2000s, a dinosaur yes but it has that one desired scart input and that some of my friends use their extron/ otaku-games shifter on pvms and don't experience the same degree of anomalies.

P:S I contacted jochen from arcadeforge and he seems to think the flicker on his shifter stems from the psu.

[strayan]

GBS-C gives you complete horizontal, vertical and zoom control as long as you’re downscaling. It’s fantastic.

Looks like a great unit, but we’re just looking at CRT use - 240p in, 240p out - analog only with no scaling or processing. I’m not familiar with GBS-C, but I think it’s a scaler isn’t it?

I just hooked up my snes with hdretrovision component cables to the gbs-c and can shift the image left right or up and down no problem. In other words inputting 240p via component, outputting 240p RGB to a 15khz CRT.

[neorichieb1971]

I assume the image displayed from the consoles to the left has the image to the left off screen? In other words no requirement to zoom on the horizontal axis.

I'm a bit reluctant to get involved in CRT tech because its old, takes up loads of room and quite often I cannot get anyone local to fix anything.

I have one CRT which is in really good shape for gun games, but because of its condition I won't likely use it for anything else.