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 Post subject: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:04 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
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Haven't posted in years and just getting into 240p shizz with Pi and MisTer (late to the game).

Anyone using Pi3b+ and 240p cores?

Views on the best core set and base frontends?

I'm interested in the best setups that provide the most accurate sync and minimal lag.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:22 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:25 pm 


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No experience with Pi, but I recommend a PC running GroovyMAME/MESS using CRTEmuTools. You will Need an ATI/AMD HD5450 with VGA or DVI-I out. You can do Windows if you want but there is a free Linux only distro called GroovyArcade. Installs in about 5 minutes. If you have an old PC hanging around, its the best way to go and get authentic resolutions.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:05 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
No experience with Pi, but I recommend a PC running GroovyMAME/MESS using CRTEmuTools. You will Need an ATI/AMD HD5450 with VGA or DVI-I out. You can do Windows if you want but there is a free Linux only distro called GroovyArcade. Installs in about 5 minutes. If you have an old PC hanging around, its the best way to go and get authentic resolutions.


Yep done all that but there's something cool about using these small devices imo. I'll be including the groovymame stuff for the video I'll end up doing.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:18 pm 


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long time no see, man!

MiSTer is better than a Pi in every possible regard. You're just limited by the titles that are available by now. But it's also great to grow the library as development progresses. Since you've been dealing with RGB-modded systems for decades, you'll be absollutely amazed by how good the MiSTer's RGB output is for all those cores.

If you want to try a Pi, just get the Pi-Scart cable along with their version of Retropie/Recalbox. It's the best out-of-box 240p experience you'll find with a Pi-based setup. On a Pi - due to performance reasons - you can't really choose freely between all the available libretro cores. You use what you get and what performs good enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:55 am 


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You can't even get the latest Snes9x on a Pi. What's up with that?

With MAME you're also forced to choose between compiling a special version of SDL2 or running the crappy libretro version. Such a fucking pain.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:12 pm 



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Hey Tobias,
You still alive?! :lol:

I bought the MisTer and also have a Pi2Scart with the 3b+. Honestly, whilst I’m impressed with the MisTer, I’m probably more impressed with the RGB setup of the Pi. I’m using Jochen’s pi2scart and his regamebox fe.

Are you referring to the RGB-Pi software build? Do you know if it handles all the correct timings?
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:59 pm 


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Interesting.

Im pretty Pi illiterate, so bear with me. My previous experience with Rasp. Pi emulators from about 5 years ago was that they had a terrible amount of input lag. Is that not the case anymore? It still uses some version of MAME, correct? How does it switch to the proper resolutions per game? It uses a Linux OS, right?

Im currently using a rather large HP Elitedesk i5-6500 PC with an ATI/AMD HD5450 in my Mace Cab running GroovyMAME. I use one of Jim Riddle's 6 to 1 JAMMA switcher boards populated with additional relays to output stereo over JAMMA to switch from the Seattle board, MVS, and PC and it works fantastic. Aside from the obvious pro of space and power requirements, what other pros and cons are there vs a PC in a setup like this? I have a unique situation in that Mace is only a 4 button fighter, so I must control 6 button games like SF2 using only 4 buttons (medium and hard punch/kick) or I can choose to use my 2 Xbox wireless controls for full 6 button functionality which are also setup on the GroovyMAME box. For authenticity sake, Im not cutting new holes for more buttons in my cab, so Im wondering if its possible to also attach the Xbox wireless PC dongle to the Pi and get the same functionality?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to get the most efficient, minimal lag, perfect resolution switching setup. I dont require 8000 games. I mainly am interested in a few classic Pacman/Galaga era games, mid 80s Capcom, Konami, Taito, Sega games, CPS 1, 2, 3 games, and some Midway mid 90's drivers and fighters. I have an actual MVS w/161in1 in my cab for authenticity as well, so thats already covered, but if Neo Geo core is good enough perhaps I could have the courage to remove it. Im not up to date on all the MisTer cores and peripherals, but I assume it puts out the authentic per game resolutions as well?

I know its a lot of questions, but shit, thats what this thread is for right?! :mrgreen: Lets discuss!


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:15 pm 


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Your setup shits all over anything anyone could ever hope to do with a Pi or a MiSTer. I wouldn't bother with either if I were you.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:04 pm 


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WelshMegalodon wrote:
Your setup shits all over anything anyone could ever hope to do with a Pi or a MiSTer. I wouldn't bother with either if I were you.


lol, thanks. I also just saw your previous comment about having to compile or use the libretro version of MAME and just from the sound of that I would say the Pi is a no-go for sure. The MiSTer stuff is intriguing to me but you're probably right. It would most likely end up being just another rabbit hole time-suck and end up not being any better than what I got now. Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:14 pm 



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I have a lot of original hardware and that's where I have been historically. What I'm doing here is out of curiosity and knowledge gaining.

Josh128 wrote:
My previous experience with Rasp. Pi emulators from about 5 years ago was that they had a terrible amount of input lag. Is that not the case anymore? It still uses some version of MAME, correct? How does it switch to the proper resolutions per game? It uses a Linux OS, right?


Not so much with the right controller and using a CRT.
Still uses MAME as base core for arcade.
Uses types of timing modelines the same/similar to CRTemul drivers for the PC.
Flavours of LINUX yes.

Josh128 wrote:
Im currently using a rather large HP Elitedesk i5-6500 PC with an ATI/AMD HD5450 in my Mace Cab running GroovyMAME. I use one of Jim Riddle's 6 to 1 JAMMA switcher boards populated with additional relays to output stereo over JAMMA to switch from the Seattle board, MVS, and PC and it works fantastic. Aside from the obvious pro of space and power requirements, what other pros and cons are there vs a PC in a setup like this?


Between your current set-up and let's say a Pi. No functional advantage assuming you have GroovyMAME setup properly. GroovyMAME using CRTemul drivers on a properly setup PC and CRT is superior from a functionality perspective.

Between your current set-up and the MisTer. Depending on MisTer core the Mister use case could be more "authentic". I think the "more authentic" element is not a real thing to 99% of people, as software emulation nowadays is bloody good setup correctly and using appropriate hardware. This is my real interest in finding this out first hand...... and I'm prepared to be educated.

Josh128 wrote:
I have a unique situation in that Mace is only a 4 button fighter, so I must control 6 button games like SF2 using only 4 buttons (medium and hard punch/kick) or I can choose to use my 2 Xbox wireless controls for full 6 button functionality which are also setup on the GroovyMAME box. For authenticity sake, I'm not cutting new holes for more buttons in my cab, so I'm wondering if its possible to also attach the Xbox wireless PC dongle to the Pi and get the same functionality?


Depends what the Pi will see the dongle as. If it's seen as generic, you'll be fine. Convert to six button CP imo though. Do it right and make a replacement so you can swap them out.

Josh128 wrote:
Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to get the most efficient, minimal lag, perfect resolution switching setup. I don't require 8000 games. I mainly am interested in a few classic Pacman/Galaga era games, mid 80s Capcom, Konami, Taito, Sega games, CPS 1, 2, 3 games, and some Midway mid 90's drivers and fighters. I have an actual MVS w/161in1 in my cab for authenticity as well, so that's already covered, but if Neo Geo core is good enough perhaps I could have the courage to remove it. I'm not up to date on all the MisTer cores and peripherals, but I assume it puts out the authentic per game resolutions as well?


You won't have the compatibility on MisTer as you have on a Pi or your PC. If setup correctly and you have no issue with the size of your PC, stick with the PC. I do like the idea of a low powered and small box in my cabs though (and being solid state).... if it all plays and feels good enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:25 pm 


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Thanks for the responses. When you do finish your video please link it here so we can check it out!


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:07 pm 



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fagin wrote:
Between your current set-up and let's say a Pi. No functional advantage assuming you have GroovyMAME setup properly. GroovyMAME using CRTemul drivers on a properly setup PC and CRT is superior from a functionality perspective.

Between your current set-up and the MisTer. Depending on MisTer core the Mister use case could be more "authentic". I think the "more authentic" element is not a real thing to 99% of people, as software emulation nowadays is bloody good setup correctly and using appropriate hardware. This is my real interest in finding this out first hand...... and I'm prepared to be educated.


On the MiSTer I would say that the best advantage in using its direct video/analogue output is that all timings are identical* to what the original hardware would output, without needing to do anything to set up the right timings for individual systems or, worse, individual games. So it's a lot more convenient for analogue uses.

*I actually don't know if put under measurements with oscilloscopes they are identical, but from what I can tell your monitor or TV won't tell a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:52 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
On the MiSTer I would say that the best advantage in using its direct video/analogue output is that all timings are identical* to what the original hardware would output, without needing to do anything to set up the right timings for individual systems or, worse, individual games. So it's a lot more convenient for analogue uses.


Let me guess: you never actually tried Groovymame, right?

No MiSTer experience here yet, but as I understand, the only advantage of MiSTer from a technical perspective (vs. a Windows PC with CRT-Emudriver) is console emulation. Given the current state of Mame's emulation of most consoles, you need to resort to Retroarch for optimal latency and timings, and well, let's just say it's not exactly easy to configure for this matter. Some consoles may even be better emulated in Retroarch's modified emulators, such as SNES or Mega CD.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:30 pm 



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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Let me guess: you never actually tried Groovymame, right?


You're right! I was only talking about analogue video output timings though. Last time I looked into Groovymame, you need to set up resolutions/timings for the various systems and games manually, except for arcade games which had a database ready for each emulated board. But I'm sure people have found ways to vastly simplify this process. What I'm not sure whether Groovymame can do is handle game resolution changes on the fly like real (or emulated) hardware would, or whether resolution settings only work on a per-title basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:56 pm 



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Groovymame does indeed change resolution on the fly in an almost seamless way no other emulator does, in fact, specially under super resolutions. It's really amazing in every regard, including lag optimizations. As far as I remember, the first selling point of Groovymame/mess was automated configuration of video modes. You only needed to tell it to use Mame's own tables, and that's it. As the resolution changes are coded into every console game, for correctly emulated home systems there should be no issues, the problem is, many home systems (including computers) are very poorly emulated in Mame. Something which doesn't seem to be progressing as one would expect after all this time, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:34 am 


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It is progressing... just very slowly. MAME is currently the best choice for the Apple II and TI-99 series of computers, and they promote their x86 and MIDI synthesizer emulation regularly. They also emulated every single Game & Watch title not too long ago.

More popular consoles are understandably less of a priority because there already exist mature emulators for them. Although Master System emulation is reportedly not too shabby.
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:59 pm 



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First piece of info..... probably a known thing, but I'm starting from scratch:

I have the ArcadeForge Pi2Scart adapter. Does what it says and enable SCART output from Pi with a clean sync.

I did some tests with ArcadeForge's Regamebox image and it works OK but I struggled to get it to work for SegaCD and PC Engine CD. Not sure why.

Move on to RGB Pi frontend. Looks pretty awesome from what I've seen. Won't work with the Pi2Scart though. Colour palette is all to cock. :(

Last night fired up a Retropie CRT Edition EVO image. Works fine and I need to now spend some time configuring. Have a fair bit of experience with Retropie so shouldn't take me long to get to a decent image and get some testing done!


So I'll be looking at comparing:

- Modern NASA PC running GroovyMAME and secondary ATI gfx with CRT Emul to 240p BVM
- MisTer FPGA to 240p BVM
- Pi to 240p BVM

Arcade and consoles.

Should keep me busy for another wasted lifetime! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:56 am 


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https://github.com/crtpi/CRTPi-Project

This is also worth a try!
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:06 pm 


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fagin wrote:

So I'll be looking at comparing:

- Modern NASA PC running GroovyMAME and secondary ATI gfx with CRT Emul to 240p BVM
- MisTer FPGA to 240p BVM
- Pi to 240p BVM

Arcade and consoles.

Should keep me busy for another wasted lifetime! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Amen to that. It took quite a few hours to get GM up and running acceptably on my arcade, but that included installing things like Ultimarc jpacs/ipacs (lol dont remember which I have), JAMMA switches, audio amp (PC could not drive arcade speakers), etc etc. This hobby can definitely suck some time, especially when tinkering. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:44 pm 



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Retropie CRT Edition EVO setup is going very positively for me so far. Should have a full custom image built very soon. :)

kitty666cats wrote:
https://github.com/crtpi/CRTPi-Project

This is also worth a try!


Thanks for the heads up - Any specific advantages of this over say Retropie CRT Edition EVO?
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:18 pm 


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fagin wrote:
Retropie CRT Edition EVO setup is going very positively for me so far. Should have a full custom image built very soon. :)

kitty666cats wrote:
https://github.com/crtpi/CRTPi-Project

This is also worth a try!


Thanks for the heads up - Any specific advantages of this over say Retropie CRT Edition EVO?


This one is catered towards several different types of CRTs, but I dig both images! CRT Edition is being worked on more consistently, though, so for the long run I would probably follow that one if you are going the 15kHz RGB / RGB to transcoder route
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:23 pm 


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RGBS HDMI to VGA 240p on 15kHz CRT


https://www.instagram.com/p/CH1DZ0alyAr/


SETTINGS ARE FOR RASPBERRY PI 3B+
Disable Monitor EDID

hdmi_ignore_edid=0xa5000080
hdmi_ignore_cec_init=1

Uncomment For TATE Mode (270 Degree)
#Display_lcd_rotate=3

Uncomment This If Your Display Has A Black Border Of Unused Pixels Visible And Your Display Can Output Without Overscan
#Disable_overscan=1

HDMI To VGA - DMT 640x480p@60hz
#Hdmi_group=2
#Hdmi_mode=4

HDMI To VGA 240p *Needs Sync Combiner, Set Height In LibRetro RetroArch 'Config' Cores To 640 - CEA 720x240p@60hz
hdmi_group=1
hdmi_mode=8
hdmi_pixel_encoding=4

Uncomment To Disable Rainbow Splash On Boot
disable_splash=1
boot_delay=1

Uncomment If You Get No Picture On HDMI For A Default "Safe" Mode
#Hdmi_safe=1

Uncomment The Following To Adjust Overscan. Use Positive Numbers If Console Goes Off Screen, And Negative If There Is Too Much Border
#Overscan_left=16
#Overscan_right=16
#Overscan_top=16
#Overscan_bottom=16

Uncomment To Force A Console Size. By Default It Will Be Display's Size Minus Overscan.
#Framebuffer_width=1280
#Framebuffer_height=720

Uncomment If Hdmi Display Is Not Detected And Composite Is Being Output
hdmi_force_hotplug=1

Uncomment To Force A HDMI Mode Rather Than DVI. This Can Make Audio Work In DMT (Computer Monitor) Modes
hdmi_drive=2

Uncomment To Increase Signal To HDMI, If You Have Interference, Blanking, Or No Display
config_hdmi_boost=5

Uncomment To Overclock The Pi2. 900 MHz Is The Default.
#Total_mem=1024
#Arm_freq=1000
#Gpu_freq=500
#Core_freq=500
#Sdram_freq=500
#Sdram_schmoo=0x02000020
#Over_voltage=2
#Sdram_over_voltage=2

Uncomment To Overclock The Pi3B. DO NOT USE FOR 3B+ 1200 MHz Is The Default.
#Total_mem=1024
#Arm_freq=1300
#Gpu_freq=500
#Core_freq=500
#Sdram_freq=500
#Sdram_schmoo=0x02000020
#Over_voltage=2
#Sdram_over_voltage=2

Uncomment To Overclock The Pi3B+. DO NOT USE FOR 3B 1400 Mhz Is The Default.
#Total_mem=1024
#Arm_freq=1425
#Core_freq=600
#V3d_freq=400
#Sdram_freq=550
#Over_voltage=1
#Temp_soft_limit=70

You Can Also Raise The Minimum Frequency Of The Dynamic Clock (Defaults Are 600 & 250 For Pi3B+)
#Arm_freq_min=900
#Core_freq_min=325

Uncomment Some Or All Of These To Enable The Optional Hardware Interfaces
#Dtparam=I2c_arm=On
#Dtparam=I2s=On
#Dtparam=Spi=On

Uncomment This To Enable The Lirc-Rpi Module
#Dtoverlay=Lirc-Rpi

Additional Overlays And Parameters Are Documented /Boot/Overlays/README
Enable Audio (Loads Snd_bcm2835)
dtparam=audio=on

gpu_mem_256=128
gpu_mem_512=256
gpu_mem_1024=256

#Overscan_scale=1





^ This is the config for a Portta HDMI to VGA and a sync combiner. Used it last night, just gotta resize shit in RetroArch sometimes which is not a biggie. Or use super resolutions if you so desire


May also work with a HDMI to YPbPr!
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:33 am 



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Initial feedback on RetroPie CRT Edition is that imo these Pi's with RGB 15khz simply rock!!!

I've put an overview video up on my channel and had quite a few people in the chat (and now starting to come through in the comments) about "Should go MiSTer". I have a MiSTer and based on my initial tests between the two, I really don't see what the fuss is about with the MiSTer within context vs this setup on a Pi.

15khz output on a Pi together with a low lag pad is very impressive to me.

I'm all ears for anyone that wants to point out the stand-out advantages of the MiSTer setup to me. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:59 pm 



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fagin wrote:
I'm all ears for anyone that wants to point out the stand-out advantages of the MiSTer setup to me.


Speaking only about 15khz output for CRTs, for me there's two crucial advantages.

1. A general advantage is that MiSTer cores will display the correct resolution and aspect ratio without needing any configuration, for every game or part of a game (since some games have different resolutions and ARs for title screen, menu, main gameplay, cutscenes, etc.). With the Pi you either need to set the resolution and AR manually, which is especially problematic for games in which these vary throughout gameplay, or you can use a super resolution + CRT switch res, but the latter can be buggy with some retroarch cores. I had problems especially with systems like PC Engine CD and Mega CD.

2. A specific advantage relates to the two aforementioned systems, and perhaps others I did not experience myself, which is that on MiSTer these systems output audio and video in perfect sync as on the original hardware, whereas on the Pi, at least when getting 15khz from the HDMI output as I do in my setup (this is not a problem using 31khz or above), I had to choose between two poisons: smooth CD audio with some stuttering in the video during scrolling scenes or gameplay (probably due to a buffer for vsync), or smooth video with noise pops in the CD audio.

So it comes down to that for me. This is not to say that the Pi setup is not good, it is great, and for many other systems that the MiSTer also supports the above two are not really factors, so I could be kind of indifferent. Plus the Pi obviously supports a lot of other systems that the MiSTer does. When I want to play PC-98 games, the Pi is my go to. I also use it a lot for watching interlaced SD video content in awesome quality. But for almost any system that the MiSTer supports I'll go for the MiSTer for what feels like a more streamlined and closer to original hardware experience.

In short, just use both :D


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 Post subject: Re: Pi and 240p for Arcade and Consoles; Best Cores etc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:28 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
1. A general advantage is that MiSTer cores will display the correct resolution and aspect ratio without needing any configuration, for every game or part of a game (since some games have different resolutions and ARs for title screen, menu, main gameplay, cutscenes, etc.). With the Pi you either need to set the resolution and AR manually, which is especially problematic for games in which these vary throughout gameplay, or you can use a super resolution + CRT switch res, but the latter can be buggy with some retroarch cores. I had problems especially with systems like PC Engine CD and Mega CD


Not 100% certain, but 90-something percent sure that most CRT-based Pi images will supply the proper aspect ratios / resolutions / integer scaling nowadays... at least in LibRetro/RetroArch cores! You have to dig deep to even FIND CRT SwitchRes, I believe it’s just kinda “built-in” on either a console to console or game to game basis
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