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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:07 pm 


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It's a shame that many of the really great Faroudja-equipped linedoublers from back then (Videon Omega One/HDP, Vigatec FX2/+) have become so rare. For years it was easy to pick those up on ebay somewhere between 50 and 100 EUR and in consequence to recommend them. But what's a recommendation worth today, if you simply can't find any.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:32 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
Fudoh wrote:
The absolute heyday of Faroudja's processing works was when the FLI2200 and subsequently the 2300/2310 was released.

How can you identify Faroudja units from that heyday?

In that avsforum thread user AlfaRomeo says:

Quote:
The Linedoubling Modes found in later machines such as the DVP 2200 /3000/5000 are inferior to that of the LD200/VP250.


Then user Steve Goff says:

Quote:
I owned an LD200, and it was no match on video material for any Faroudja processor or player with DCDi.


It sounds like the heyday began with DCDi but when did it end? Are there a few pinnacle Faroudja models for this application?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:09 pm 


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that's easier said than done.

I don't know any precise list of processors along with release dates and once it got interesting, Faroudja stopped marketing their own processors and concentrated in OEM work for other manufacturers.

But let's try - - units I know (and/or have) are:

90s:
LD-100 (line doubler, oldest Faroudja I have, heavy duty, certainly no DCDi) - got one
VP-250 (evolution of the LD-100)
VP-400/401 (960p/1080i output)
DVP-2200 (SD input, no DCDi, 480p output for NTSC, 600p output for PAL, late 90s).
DVP-3000 (SD input, DCDi, HD output, late 90s) - got one
DVP-5000 (SD and HD input, DCDi, HD output, late 90s) ($45.000 machine)

00s:
NR Series (evolution of the DVP-3000 but with fixed output timing) - no digital output yet.
DVP-1000/1010 (SD processing, HD passthrough, Digital Output) - got one
DVP-1080 (HD processing, Digital output) - got one

The DVP-3000 is the tech that went into the FLI2200. The DVP-1000 is the tech that went into the FLI2300/2310.

Meridian offererd a DVD-1080 variant (got one).
JVC offered a rebranded DVP-1000 (and maybe a 1080?) (got one).
Videon offerend line doublers based on the FLI2200 (Videon Omega One and Omega HDP) (got both).
Vigatec offered rebranded Videon Units (got both).
Vitagec also offered the S1 with a FLI2200 and a separate HD scaling engine (got one).
T+A offerend a standalone Faroudja unit (2310 based I guess) (got one).
Pixel Magic Systems offered 2310 based machines (Plasma Enhancer, Crystalio 2300, Crystalio II) (got the PE and the CII).

and I'm probably forgetting a few.

DCDi can be found in anything starting with the DVP-3000.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:29 pm 


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And then there's the Silicon Optic Image Anyplace with FLI2200 and rotation engine. Haven't used one in a while, but I think - while the chipset has DCDi - it's not available in the options on the machine and from my 240p deinterlacing results it's not enabled. Still probably one of the most advanced FLI2200 machines - while being easily available and affordable at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:38 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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Extremely helpful!

Do you think there is any difference in picture quality between the various DCDi Faroudja units when using an S-video VCR? Would the addition of things like HD handling and digital output require making performance compromises for SD sources? Or how about FLI2200 vs FLI2300/2310?

Should the 00s units still handle input from a VCR?

In the other thread user AlfaRomeo said "the Linedoubling Modes found in later machines such as the DVP 2200 /3000/5000 are inferior to that of the LD200/VP250" but it appears he was using a progressive source to make that evaluation. Would that be something like a laserdisc doubled to 960?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:07 pm 


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Quote:
Do you think there is any difference in picture quality between the various DCDi Faroudja units when using an S-video VCR? Would the addition of things like HD handling and digital output require making performance compromises for SD sources? Or how about FLI2200 vs FLI2300/2310?

The FLI2310 added more features which made settings much more complicated (for example various sharpness options), but it's not adding very much to the actual results (depending on your display's capabilities). What you're basically asking me is whether a 2003 $3000 machine will perform better than a 1999 $30,000 machine. I have my doubts.

Quote:
Should the 00s units still handle input from a VCR?

of course. As said my favorites are FLI2200 line doublers from Videon and Vigatec which become available around 2002. And despite their cheaper price point and being a few years late to party, they shine with ease of use, their limited feature set (in a good sense) and their excellent performance.

Quote:
In the other thread user AlfaRomeo said "the Linedoubling Modes found in later machines such as the DVP 2200 /3000/5000 are inferior to that of the LD200/VP250" but it appears he was using a progressive source to make that evaluation. Would that be something like a laserdisc doubled to 960?

he might be refering to the stability of the film mode. Can't think of anything else and I really wouldn't care either.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:35 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
The Edge probably won't either, if you simply unlock the output.


I tried this last night and you're right! :mrgreen:

But then I was reminded why I had it locked it in the first place: the eventual screen tearing with unlocked. Even more noticeable with any type of zoom.

I can think of a workaround involving a programmable remote but that would be a lot of trouble to set up.

Guess I'll look for this Faroudja whatsit....


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:39 pm 


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Quote:
I had it locked it in the first place: the eventual screen tearing with unlocked.

I can't say that I've ever seen tearing on any video processor. That's just not how they work. If anything you should get a duplicated frame somewhere to keep the input/output in sync. Weird, weird .....


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:40 pm 


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I might have to look into these processors for flat panel VHS viewing. although it does already look decent to my eyes, plugged straight into my Samsung PNxxF4500 plasma


Or maybe next I'll look into a TBC? picture already seems pretty damn stable to me using my pro Sony SVO-1610. would the benefits of a TBC only be for capture in my case? since the Sony's output is so stable?


I do get a great picture on my crt sets (Sony PVM-2950 and Sony KV-25XBR) plugged straight in. But would sometimes watch on the flat panel

But yeah I think VHS looks pleasing on a CRT. It's a shame that pre-recorded tapes weren't quide as good as the medium allows (like it's the case with audio cassettes) due to late generation bins being used. but in VHS case it's not a huge difference, admittedly.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:27 pm 



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Posts: 396
Another interesting thread by AlfaRomeo found that the older Faroudja DVP-5000 has a much higher performing analog input stage than the newer DVP-1080:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/faroud ... 80.612340/

Not hard to believe since they were $45,000 vs $7,000.

Any idea what differentiates the 5000 and 5000U?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:38 pm 


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Quote:
Not hard to believe since they were $45,000 vs $7,000.

but not that relevant. Or does anybody here have the need to process an analogue 1080i signal ?

Quote:
Any idea what differentiates the 5000 and 5000U?

U is for Universal (NTSC and PAL compatible).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:04 pm 



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You're supposing the DVP-1080's SD analog input stage performs much better than its HD analog input stage? Or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:48 pm 


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I never tried analogue HD inputs on any device. Not my use case and hardly any use case today.

I understand though that analogue HD can easily cause bandwith issues and I wouldn't be surprised if the DVP-1080 isn't able to deliver full bandwith for analogue HD signals. But of course I tried analogue SD on all my machines and there're no issues on any of the machines.

If you ask me today, I'd say it's probably a LPF issue. You can see this on the OSSC, where a LPF setting suitable to SD signals can be an absolute killer for ED or HD signals. On the Faroudja you have no setting for this, so you can't adjust any filter settings depending on the input signal.

Don't overthink this. These have all been fantastic ultra-high end machines. In almost all scenarios outdated today, but for analogue SD sources from the 80s and 90s a very fine choice.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:15 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Or does anybody here have the need to process an analogue 1080i signal ?


I still keep my gamecube component cables around for 1080i. Extremely edge case though and I’m fairly certain it’s a psychological thing given I can’t tell the difference between 1080i and 480p on my CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:07 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
I never tried analogue HD inputs on any device. Not my use case and hardly any use case today.

I understand though that analogue HD can easily cause bandwith issues and I wouldn't be surprised if the DVP-1080 isn't able to deliver full bandwith for analogue HD signals. But of course I tried analogue SD on all my machines and there're no issues on any of the machines.


Ok so you're assuming AlfaRomeo did his testing with an HD signal. You're probably right but did you see anything explicitly indicating that? Also if there is an analog bandwidth problem for HD, I'm not sure why it would exist for the 1080 and not for the 5000.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 pm 


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Quote:
Ok so you're assuming AlfaRomeo did his testing with an HD signal. You're probably right but did you see anything explicitly indicating that? Also if there is an analog bandwidth problem for HD, I'm not sure why it would exist for the 1080 and not for the 5000.

for his 1080 vs 5000 comparison he definitely used an analogue 1080i signal.

About why the limitation exists on the 1080p: i assume the 1080i uses off the shelf parts from other manufacturers, while the 5000 is most certainly build from scratch with hand selected (and self-made) circuitry.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:59 pm 


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I am really interested in acquiring a Faroudja VS50 for chaining prior to one of their scalers, but they seem damn near impossible to find. My buddy has one, and the screenshots he has sent me of his in use are very impressive! No idea if their processors utilize practically the same technology / if it would be therefore pointless to have one for anything but unscaled 15kHz.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:43 pm 



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Would be very interesting to know!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:15 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
Should the iScan Pro just work into a 1600x1200 LCD? The device lights up but nothing onscreen.

What resolution would be ideal into a 1600x1200 LCD for the scalers that allow you to choose an output res? 800x600?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:20 pm 


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Quote:
Should the iScan Pro just work into a 1600x1200 LCD? The device lights up but nothing onscreen.

yes, it should. The iScan Pro needs an active source though (there's no OSD) and the output needs to be set to RGB, not YPbPr.

Quote:
What resolution would be ideal into a 1600x1200 LCD for the scalers that allow you to choose an output res? 800x600?

that doesn't matter. Your LCD doesn't magically apply next neighbour scaling only because the input/output resolution ratio would call for it.

From my review years ago (PS2 via component + Iscan Pro + cheap SLG unit + NEC 2180UX LCD with 1600x1200 res):

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:41 am 



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I thought to re-upload an old video test I did with my DVD/VCR from a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OKXFJ7 ... e=youtu.be
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:34 pm 



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Fudoh, so it doesn't matter which resolution is sent to the LCD by the scaler? One is as good as the next?

My iScan Pro lights up and the blue Film light appears when it receives input via composite or S-video but no output at all. Must be broken. The VCR works fine directly into the LCD but looks pretty crappy.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:43 pm 


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What connection are you trying to use? RGBHV ? Component ? What input on your TV ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:09 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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I've tried component and S-video between the VCR and scaler. Between the scaler and LCD monitor it's only VGA and I've tried RGB and YPbPr settings on the scaler. Another scaler I have works fine with the same VGA connection.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:23 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
Can you think of a good series of 4:3 LCDs for NTSC from a VCR? I'm using a 1600x1200 LCD but it doesn't look like Faroudja supports that res and I'd rather not have the monitor scale. Is there a good IPS 1024x768 or 1280x1024 or 1400x1050?


Last edited by shmupsrocks on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:04 pm 


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No, there isn't. And I really can't imagine that it makes a visible difference with that kind of source material.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:27 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
Quite a few 1280x1024 IPS monitors currently being produced from the looks of it:

https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/de ... ccessories

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/viewsonic- ... Id=3440006

https://www.cdw.com/product/NEC-MultiSy ... ck/3153417

If I try one I'll report back.


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