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 Post subject: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:50 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
I've been using my OSSC with PCBs but I'm thinking of getting an old Betamax VCR and wondering if I can use an OSSC or even a Retrotink to make it work on a 4:3 1600x1200 LCD display. Has anyone used this stuff with a VCR?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:02 pm 


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OSSC, probably not, your VCR probably outputs composite video or RF, and the OSSC can't decode those. Assuming your VCR has composite output, you'll either need something like a Koryuu transcoder to convert composite to component so that the OSSC can handle it, or a RetroTINK 2X/MINI/Pro/Multiformat that has composite input natively.

If the VCR only has RF output (an F connector to which you screw on a coax cable), you'd need to convert that to composite or something else.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:31 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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I should have said I'll be using S-video output on the VCR. Ok so I'm glad it sounds like these scalers will work for this. I suppose the Retrotink will 2x to get the res high enough for an LCD display but then the display has to scale it up from there, while a Koryuu + OSSC will scale it all the way up to the monitor's native 1600x1200 for the best quality. Do I have that right?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:44 pm 


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Depends, do you think that the upscaling of the OSSC is good for video content? OSSC does simple line multiplication and can introduce a bit of softness with the upsample2x option in certain modes, but that's it. It's just about the most basic scaling you can do, which happens to look good for 240p video games and some even like it for 480p 3D games, but it's just about the crappiest upscaling for video content. Often you have the issue of living in a world where every upscaler is made for video content and there are like 3 devices optimized for retro games. But since you actually want to scale SD video content you have a world of video processors and displays which were optimized for just that. I'd figure most TVs or vintage video processors will look better or dramatically better than (ab)using a video game scaler. And you don't have to worry about lag or quirky resolutions and refresh rates. I mean if your budget is 0$ and you just want to use your existing equipment, go for it, but you can probably find something better for cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:09 pm 


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Quote:
while a Koryuu + OSSC will scale it all the way up to the monitor's native 1600x1200 for the best quality

what is good for pristine video game signals, isn't necessarily suited for a signal from a VHS machine.

You'll get better results from an iScan Pro with proper video-optimized deinterlacing ($60 on ebay, composite and s-video input, 480p component and VGA output), if you let the monitor do the additional upscaling than from a Koryuu/OSSC combo with 1200p output.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:23 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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I had no idea. I thought a good video game scaler would be a good video scaler. What is the ultimate video scaler for a Betamax or VHS VCR into 1080p and/or 1600x1200 4:3?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:27 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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I wasn't able to use my professional Sony VCR over composite (going through a Kramer Composite to RGBS converter to the OSSC) - wouldn't hold a signal with the OSSC. I was however able to use a SVHS player, playing VHS tapes, through the same Kramer converter (this time using S-Video to RGBS) and that did work on the OSSC, although it still looked absolutely awful - really not even worth it in any way.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:41 am 


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Quote:
What is the ultimate video scaler for a Betamax or VHS VCR into 1080p and/or 1600x1200 4:3?

a Faroudja equipped processor. Upscaling isn't necessary, deinterlacing to 480p is much more important.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:49 am 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Posts: 136
I tried the Retrotink 2x with a SVHS deck. It will drop frames like crazy due to the dirty/unstable sync found on video tapes. It was only usable when I inserted a full frame time-base corrector in the chain. At that point, you might as well capture video direct with a proper capture card. Also, one should not be deinterlacing and upscaling the footage before capture. Capture as 480/576i and let the video playback devices handle the rest of the processing. De-interlacing and upscaling tech has only gotten better over the years and you don't want your raw captures "stuck" in the past with older/lousy processing.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:22 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 163
NJRoadfan wrote:
I tried the Retrotink 2x with a SVHS deck. It will drop frames like crazy due to the dirty/unstable sync found on video tapes. It was only usable when I inserted a full frame time-base corrector in the chain.

The OG RetroTINK-2X Classic? The new RetroTINK-2X Pro Multiformat should have better sync hold with the new analog front-end. Admittedly not a full-frame TBC by any means, but should perform better than the older models.

NJRoadfan wrote:
At that point, you might as well capture video direct with a proper capture card.

Sadly the capture cards will likely be just as bad. Plus, as far as I know, no capture card on the market has a full-frame TBC built-in. Best you're going to get is line TBC and 2D comb filtering.

NJRoadfan wrote:
Also, one should not be deinterlacing and upscaling the footage before capture. Capture as 480/576i and let the video playback devices handle the rest of the processing. De-interlacing and upscaling tech has only gotten better over the years and you don't want your raw captures "stuck" in the past with older/lousy processing.

Very, very true.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:17 am 


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Quote:
Capture as 480/576i and let the video playback devices handle the rest of the processing. De-interlacing and upscaling tech has only gotten better over the years and you don't want your raw captures "stuck" in the past with older/lousy processing.

the big problem here is that most capture devices aren't really made for interlaced capture, even with so many claiming to be. There is a big difference between frame and field based encoding. If you're running an interlaced signal into an encoding process that's optimized for frame based encoding, then two interlaced fields will be encoded into one frame. Due to the color color subsampling within the frame, you end with with crosstalk between the fields.

Both methods have their advantages. SD deinterlacing hasn't progressed in the past 10 years. On the contrary: most implementations have changed into pure motion adaptive video deinterlacers only. Good luck finding multi-cadence compatible film modes these days. And let's be honest: playing back progressive captures is a lot easier on all ends.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:51 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 306
I haven't seen discussion on DVD/VCR combos, but they can output via component video for easy hookup. 240p still gets converted to 480i and trying to get full 60fps via progressive scan has it's way of making the video quality look extremely horrible in contrast. Some of the latest prior to end of VCR production actually do have an HDMI output and I think that's worth taking a look at.

I also have a Faroudja VP240p as an alt which will get you VGA out as 480p, but my unit is a little beat up.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:03 pm 


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Quote:
I also have a Faroudja VP240p

I think you mixed up the model number.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:20 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
How would a VCR look through an iScan Pro or Faroudja on an LCD compared to the VCR hooked directly to a CRT? Is CRT's advantage there comparable to its advantage for 240p games because I prefer OSSC to CRT for games.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:39 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
How would a VCR look through an iScan Pro or Faroudja on an LCD compared to the VCR hooked directly to a CRT? Is CRT's advantage there comparable to its advantage for 240p games because I prefer OSSC to CRT for games.


I believe this thread was about watching video tapes using a VCR (not games). What's good for one type of content may not be good for another.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:57 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 396
I guess what I'm asking is will a VCR on a CRT look a lot better than a VCR into a line doubler into an LCD.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:08 pm 


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Quote:
I guess what I'm asking is will a VCR on a CRT look a lot better than a VCR into a line doubler into an LCD.

I would say as long as the LCD size remains small (like a CRT) there's nothing wrong with a properly deinterlaced VHS picture. But of course you can't compare a 50" LCD with a 20" CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:16 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1170
shmupsrocks wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is will a VCR on a CRT look a lot better than a VCR into a line doubler into an LCD.

BRAND new VCR tapes look absolutely beautiful to me with my CRT setup. Like blows my mind every time. Tried 20 or 30 of my old used tapes (I picked up everywhere from new back in the day, to $0.25 at the flea market years ago) and I think all but 1 or 2 looked pretty horrible (those few good ones were probably barely used). I don't think the VHS medium ages well when it's played dozens+ times over decades.

My setup is Sony pro (medical) SVHS player (pretty much brand new, like ~10 hours on it when I got it), playing brand new (old stock) VHS tapes, outputting S-Video, being converted to RGBS with a Kramer FC-4044, going to my BVM or PVM CRT's.

The times I tried VHS over the OSSC (I probably briefly tried with my other upscalers at some time soo, like my XRGB-mini or DSC 301 – but can't confirm that 100%) on my modern 49" LCD TV they looked horrible every time. Never tried a Faroudja to my knowledge though.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:51 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
I also have a Faroudja VP240p

I think you mixed up the model number.


Yeah I hit the wrong key. VP250


Do these units have any problems with thick color details while using s-video? The lab at the beginning of Super Metroid has this blue hallway and objects in the background end up looking like they can't be processed correctly even while moving. This doesn't happen when I use my dvd player for the conversion.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:52 pm 



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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Laserdisc would usually be acceptable through an OSSC or Retrotink (I believe the Youtuber Classic Gaming Quarterly uses a Retrotink for LD), but for VHS (or Beta) you probably won't get a stable picture unless you get something that has a TBC in it, unless you already have a high-end VCR with a TBC or a standalone TBC. So a video processor like one of the VP series might be your best bet. Maybe a used DVD recorder would be sufficient, I know Blu-ray recorders here in Japan usually have TBCs in them.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:03 pm 


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Laserdisc would usually be acceptable through an OSSC or Retrotink

no, sorry - not really. A missing film mode is an insult to any movie laserdisc. And especially since most laserdisc (or VHS) suited processors are available for bargain prices, it should be worth the investment to anybody owning a LD player in the first place.

For laserdiscs the early Faroudja machines really do wonders. None of the higher end DVDOs come close to that, although they perform much better in synthetic tests.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:50 pm 



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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Right, I was merely using "acceptable" as in "better than nothing" since I believe you could at least get a passthrough analog to HDMI 480i signal through an OSSC or Retrotink, but of course anything with film cadence detection would of course be better.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:31 pm 


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Eh, with LaserDiscs I usually go with composite straight to the TV. Using something like a DVDO Edge, you'll get your usual HDMI dropout at the start of playback, causing you to miss the first couple seconds after a disc flip. And straight composite is the only way you'll be able to get closed captions working.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:18 pm 


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Triple Lei wrote:
Eh, with LaserDiscs I usually go with composite straight to the TV. Using something like a DVDO Edge, you'll get your usual HDMI dropout at the start of playback, causing you to miss the first couple seconds after a disc flip. And straight composite is the only way you'll be able to get closed captions working.


Faroudja machines don't drop sync. At least mine don't.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:32 am 


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The Edge probably won't either, if you simply unlock the output.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:11 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
The Edge probably won't either, if you simply unlock the output.


That sounds reasonable. I'm just making sure people don't accidentally believe they need to get a DVDO. There are other options.

-----

Also, the Faroudja can chain through another scaler using a laserdisk and the results won't change. The Faroudja will remain synced outputting 480p@~60Hz to the next device in the chain. The rest of the chain "sees" a constant 480p signal (with a constant frame rate), so there will be no dropouts (handshake delays) from signal changes before the Faroudja. The video scaler always "sees" 480p/60fps, so it remains synced. The display always "sees" the same video scaler output, so it remains synced. A person could use a Faroudja with another video scaler (or directly into the display) and never worry about missing anything.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:37 am 


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Since we're on the topic, how does the VP50 in its dedicated VCR mode stack up?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:55 am 


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iirc, the VCR mode is just the same as manually unlocking the output from the input. It just got an easier label, since the locked/unlocked concept certaily wasn't clear to all users.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:32 am 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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I found a great post on the best Faroudja units for this:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/histor ... st-7174809


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC/Retrotink with a VCR?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:41 am 


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Steve Goff's posting on that thread summarizes it best: don't necessarily go for the vintage Faroudjas. The absolute heyday of Faroudja's processing works was when the FLI2200 and subsequently the 2300/2310 was released.

The DCDi processing (diagonal interpolation) does work wonders on video material and while you not always need video deinterlacing for laserdiscs, it's still good to have when the processor falls out of film mode and defaults to video processing for that time.

The "native rate" processors on ebay are often cheap. These are fully powered DVP-1000 units, but without the capability to choose an output resolution. Instead they're factory preset to one fixed output. If you pay attention and get a unit that works for you, then these units can be dirt cheap.


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