Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

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bobrocks95
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bobrocks95 »

ASDR wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:But saying original hardware always costs more doesn't make sense to me.
I've fallen into this 'trap' many times, thinking, "hey, I should just get XYZ, I see them for next to nothing on eBay, it'll be cheap" and then ending up spending way, way more. It usually goes like this:

- I should buy this for 50EUR
- No, wait, I need to import the NTSC version, 100EUR after shipping and customs
- Crap, most of these have blurry RGB or bad sound, I need the special revision, the good one, 150EUR
- All the China cables have audio buzz and checkerboarding on the video, original cables are collector's items, need fully shielded cable from RGC, 200EUR
- I'll also need an EverDrive, 350EUR now
- Why is the vertical stand / color matching GameBoy player / controller extension coord / MPEG decoder card / RGB mod PCB / region lock remover / FM-sound chip / other weird add-on I didn't initially think about so friggin expensive, 450EUR

It'll be cheap, they said.

So not saying that original hardware is not frequently cheaper, but the price for the console can be deceptive. A Wii or a PS2 console can easiliy be found for less than a quality (OEM/RA/RGC) SCART RGB cable for the system. That can make an FPGA console actually cheaper.
If you want every feature, every mod, an everdrive, etc. you're probably going to use every feature the Analogue systems offer and the package looks nicer, yeah. There's a state where things are "good enough" and you can save money by not worrying about that extra 5% quality increase, but if you chase perfection costs certainly add up.

What I wonder though, is if someone who is a perfectionist like that wants clone hardware over original? I don't see the kind of person wanting a Saturn MPEG card or orange spice Gameboy Player being interested in unlicensed hardware. I know those were throwaway examples, but just emphasizing that there's a value proposition to having original hardware as well, depending on who you ask.
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ASDR
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by ASDR »

bobrocks95 wrote: What I wonder though, is if someone who is a perfectionist like that wants clone hardware over original? I don't see the kind of person wanting a Saturn MPEG card or orange spice Gameboy Player being interested in unlicensed hardware. I know those were throwaway examples, but just emphasizing that there's a value proposition to having original hardware as well, depending on who you ask.
I think even though they're not authentic in the way an actual, genuine console is, they are attractive devices. They might not give you the same kind of feeling like owning an actual 30 years old beautifully restored console, but they're also not some ugly, design-free box like a Raspberry Pi or some Mister in laser cutter acrylic. Kinda in the middle between no design / nostalgic appeal and the actual thing.
bigbadboaz wrote:It really drives home the point that has always bugged me: all their recent consoles are the same FPGA, just configured a different way and repackaged. I hate the idea of buying the same thing over and over when we know they could easily build an all-in-one unit.
At some point I was really hoping they'd build an FPGA Polymega. A powerful FPGA core and then I could buy add-on modules to use original controllers and media. Guess that'll never happen, they rather sell you a new soon-to-be-out-of-print-buy-now box for each system. Interesting though that they went that route for their portable. They're not making an FPGA Game Boy and then another FPGA Game Gear etc. Maybe there is hope we'll see some kind of kevtris all-in-one alternative to the Mister :D
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Fudoh »

I don't see the kind of person wanting a Saturn MPEG card or orange spice Gameboy Player being interested in unlicensed hardware
I adore original hardware, especially weird special editions, but I can separate that. I can have my spicey orange Cube with its GBA player sitting on one shelf and actually use something else like a GBA consolizer or an Analogue Pocket in its dock for playing.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by darcagn »

bigbadboaz wrote:As for the idea that these machines will essentially be pointless as time goes on and they are superceded by something else, I'm not so sure. I might have predicted that BEFORE Analogue came on the scene and had so much success. Rationally, the argument that there's no real cachet to a clone machine makes total sense, but these guys have managed to build a serious reputation and now have a brand of their own. The secondary-market insanity with their recent consoles is the biggest indicator here. Rational or not, their units are rising in value just like the actual classic hardware that actually should rise in value. I can't say for sure, but Analogue consoles might stay collector's items in their own right.
I believe the secondary market prices are simply because of the good functionality + artificial scarcity, not the inherent collectability of their consoles. I believe there's a small group of people who...
1) have tons of cash on hand
2) are super fans of a specific console and want the best
3) don't want to be bothered with getting into the technicals themselves or with mod shops
...to make the second hand market insane, but if a competing product was released that worked just as easily, even if it wasn't so pretty looking, I think we'd see the costs drop dramatically, just like for any other consumer electronics device that isn't necessarily collectable.*
I think Analogue is simply manufacturing in such low volume that these people go nuts and open their wallets, because these people know that Analogue won't make enough compared to the demand. Normally, Analogue would have everything to gain by manufacturing enough to meet demand -- they'd sell more units! But they're in it for the long game: sell a tiny bit of units, build hype, release something new with a tiny bit of units, build hype, rinse, repeat. This tactic allows them to milk those wallets with high margins because they're constantly hot, creating high prices compared to what people would actually value the systems at outside of the fringe.

Also keep in mind while we're comparing Analogue products to real hardware, it's been years since they've released a product that directly competes with real hardware mods with the same features. Kevtris abandoned Hi-Def NES, so NES no longer has an HDMI mod kit, and SNES/Genesis/TurboGrafx don't have HDMI mods available, so if your endgame is real digital HDMI then your options are basically Analogue or MiSTer (or in the case of NES and you are cool with 720p, RetroAVS). Anecdotally, I myself am trying to move everything to true digital HDMI; I am only settling for the OSSC with RGB at this point, and I'm really looking forward to purchasing a product with a feature set like the Analogue, but won't bring myself to buy into their tactics.

*As a similar example, look at the secondary Framemeister market. Over the last few months, Framemeisters have sold from $500-$700 on eBay, more than they were brand new, and there's nothing especially collectable about a Framemeister, but the alternatives all have drawbacks (OSSC is more technical and less compatible, the GBS is more technical, and the Retrotinks aren't as feature rich) so there's still a small group of people willing to pay the price for the small number of units that do exist. If Micomsoft made a successor product, the secondary market prices would crater. Likewise, I think if something like the MiSTer existed in a consumer-friendly form free of diving into technicals, my belief is that people would forget all about the Analogue consoles in due time and they won't ever be significant collector's items.
Fudoh wrote:I can have my spicey orange Cube with its GBA player sitting on one shelf and actually use something else like a GBA consolizer or an Analogue Pocket in its dock for playing.
But if a better product than the Analogue Pocket came along later, would you or others still purchase an Analogue Pocket to put on your shelf to show off?


Anyway, this is all just my opinion. Time will tell if something better will come along, and if so, whether people will still care about the Analogue stuff years down the line.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Guspaz »

Everybody's getting excited for the Analogue Duo, and completely forgetting that they still haven't figured out how to manufacture any real quantities of the Analogue Pocket. It sold out nearly instantly, and only a tiny percentage of people who wanted one managed to get one.

Now they're already announcing a new product before anybody has even managed to *pre-order* their last product? And already saying the Duo will only be available in "limited quantities"? It's insulting.

Kevtris is a genius, but Analogue needs to realize they're doing far more harm to their reputation (and balance sheet) with this artificial scarcity bullshit than any potential positive they get out of it. The anti-customer-service strategy is a failure, please try something else.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bobrocks95 »

Guspaz wrote:Everybody's getting excited for the Analogue Duo, and completely forgetting that they still haven't figured out how to manufacture any real quantities of the Analogue Pocket. It sold out nearly instantly, and only a tiny percentage of people who wanted one managed to get one.

Now they're already announcing a new product before anybody has even managed to *pre-order* their last product? And already saying the Duo will only be available in "limited quantities"? It's insulting.

Kevtris is a genius, but Analogue needs to realize they're doing far more harm to their reputation (and balance sheet) with this artificial scarcity bullshit than any potential positive they get out of it. The anti-customer-service strategy is a failure, please try something else.
I have no earthly idea why I assumed this at all, but I figured Analogue Pockets were on some sort of rolling pre-order system at the moment, considering it doesn't come out until the middle of next month anyway. The fact that they won't even guarantee a second batch and ballpark it at October 2021 or anything at all is pretty telling.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Lawfer »

bobrocks95 wrote:I have no earthly idea why I assumed this at all, but I figured Analogue Pockets were on some sort of rolling pre-order system at the moment
No, they opened pre-orders at the beginning of August and they sold out in less than 10 minutes, the amount of units sold was not confirmed, but it seems to be about 11k maybe 12k.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Well, hot damn. If only someone would make an ODE for the actual DUO, I'd be even happier.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by parodius »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Well, hot damn. If only someone would make an ODE for the actual DUO, I'd be even happier.
I think the guy that did Phoebe/Rhea/GDEmu/DocBrown was working on one at some point, but he didn't mention it in a while.
Different form factor, but there's still the TerraOnion SSDS3 and the Japanese HDMI scaler add-on system that I forgot the name of.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Guspaz »

bobrocks95 wrote:I have no earthly idea why I assumed this at all, but I figured Analogue Pockets were on some sort of rolling pre-order system at the moment, considering it doesn't come out until the middle of next month anyway. The fact that they won't even guarantee a second batch and ballpark it at October 2021 or anything at all is pretty telling.
See, that would have been sensible and made nobody upset. Instead, I went to the site the instant they put up pre-orders (for mid-2021), and by the time I added stuff to my cart and tried to check out, they were sold out. After that, no word of future pre-orders or manufacturing runs. Just "it sold out and there will be another round of pre-orders in the future". And now, what's their next announcement? Information about more pre-orders? Of course not, it's a new console with "limited availability" in 2021. As far as I can tell, they're going to start making the Duo before they even handle the demand for the Pocket.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by SamIAm »

The thing about the PCE's RGB palette being different from composite is a big deal for color-perfectionists.

The internal 9-bit RGB does indeed go through a look-up table to be converted to 15-bit YUV before that gets encoded to composite video. This is entirely different from the way most other contemporary consoles worked. That YUV table not only contains rounding errors, but it is slightly weighted. It produces a significantly different palette overall.

To give you an idea: every single shade of red passed through this YUV table winds up with some blue in it. And every single shade of green winds up with some red in it. Blue, however, is the only one that remains pure.

In addition, it's been discovered recently that the composite encoding process the PCE uses winds up affecting hue even further, in fairly consistent ways. Also, PCE composite is universally low in saturation.

There are multiple designs in the works for an updated S-Video mod that delivers the most composite-accurate colors in the highest fidelity. With luck, one of them will be complete soon.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Gara »

The Analogue products have the quality that i'd hoped we would see in the mini consoles. I tend to view Analogues stuff as cool toys for people really in to retro gaming. They won't be replacing my original hardware, but I can't help but want to play with them. It's hard to view them as practical solutions when Mister already delivers on the Zimba 3000 dream.


Upergrafx is the name of that digital 720p output Pc Engine ode. At $400 shipped it doesnt seem to be very popular.
http://www.upergrafx.com/home_en
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bigbadboaz »

It's great that people are actively working on solutions to the color issue. If you're saying this is a dealbreaker re: this new Analogue machine, though, I have little doubt Kevtris will patch that in (if it's even an issue in the original shipping form). His reputation says that this is too big a thing to ignore.

@Guspaz: Unfortunately, the artificial scarcity thing DOES work for a certain group of companies that embrace it. We're all gamers; all I need to say is that damn word "Nintendo". If Analogue is happy with the amount of revenue they're seeing, hell - if they're happy with the notoriety they're generating and consider it "publicity" - to them it absolutely does work. This despite it being total bullshit for sure. For the potential consumers like you and me, the only choice is to either deal with it or say "fuck it" and do without.

I'm also open to the possibility in this case that they truly aren't capable of managing expectations and/or inventory at this point. We're talking a truly boutique operation in fairly untested territory here. It may indeed be true that they just can't get the numbers right, or ramp production quickly enough. A company like Nintendo, on the other hand, making the same excuses over and over, decades and several waves of success into its history, simply has no ground to stand on.
ASDR wrote:At some point I was really hoping they'd build an FPGA Polymega. A powerful FPGA core and then I could buy add-on modules to use original controllers and media.
Yeah, clearly they're not interested in putting themselves out of business when they like to issue new boxes based on the same FPGA. But again, the MiSTer is essentially becoming that FPGA Polymega. Works for me, and I'd honestly rather build my own machine from this type of open project anyway, given its availability.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by EnragedWhale »

bigbadboaz wrote:I have little doubt Kevtris will patch that in (if it's even an issue in the original shipping form). His reputation says that this is too big a thing to ignore.
I’m not so sure. The latest Mega SG firmware (that’s nearly a year old) broke compatibility with Sonic CD and Final Fight CD when using a real mega CD. You’d have thought that was too big to ignore but ignore it they have.

I was all in on the analogue concept and I’m a devout fan of original media so the mister holds no appeal to me. But it’s clear Kevtris is spread too thin and with every new announcement it seems less and less likely that they’ll ever fix the basic issues with their previous consoles. And with the Mega SG being over 18 months old it’s simply not good enough and makes a mockery of the supposed “perfection” they market so heavily on.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by ASDR »

EnragedWhale wrote: I was all in on the analogue concept and I’m a devout fan of original media so the mister holds no appeal to me. But it’s clear Kevtris is spread too thin and with every new announcement it seems less and less likely that they’ll ever fix the basic issues with their previous consoles. And with the Mega SG being over 18 months old it’s simply not good enough and makes a mockery of the supposed “perfection” they market so heavily on.
That is very frustrating. And even if they would eventually fix all the issues, what does that help if you can't buy the thing. All that BS about 'preservation' when their product is less available that 30 years old originals. Just look at their store:

https://www.analogue.co/store/

It's all sold out, out of stock, discontinued. Boy, these things are as hard to buy as SCART RGB cables...
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by fernan1234 »

EnragedWhale wrote: I’m not so sure. The latest Mega SG firmware (that’s nearly a year old) broke compatibility with Sonic CD and Final Fight CD when using a real mega CD. You’d have thought that was too big to ignore but ignore it they have.

I was all in on the analogue concept and I’m a devout fan of original media so the mister holds no appeal to me. But it’s clear Kevtris is spread too thin and with every new announcement it seems less and less likely that they’ll ever fix the basic issues with their previous consoles. And with the Mega SG being over 18 months old it’s simply not good enough and makes a mockery of the supposed “perfection” they market so heavily on.
A good indication of whether this PCE clone will have color correction on release or eventually will be whether the Pocket (which should be released earlier) also has one, since the GBC and GBA are also systems that require color correction for accurate game representation for probably around 98% of their libraries. Similar to this case, most people went on for years not realizing the raw RGB colors from a backlit AGA-101 GBA or the more recent IPS replacement screens are incorrect (not just at the level of color saturation and brightness, but the color space itself).
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by evil_ash_xero »

parodius wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:Well, hot damn. If only someone would make an ODE for the actual DUO, I'd be even happier.
I think the guy that did Phoebe/Rhea/GDEmu/DocBrown was working on one at some point, but he didn't mention it in a while.
Different form factor, but there's still the TerraOnion SSDS3 and the Japanese HDMI scaler add-on system that I forgot the name of.
He seemed to have given up on that a long while back, unfortunately.

I really like the look of this system. I'll go for the white one.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by neorichieb1971 »

I emailed them 2 years ago about designing a PCE iteration of their FPGA output and this looks to have hit the nail on the head.

I will be buying this. Its exactly the solution to my needs and I have have nothing but praise heaped on their portfolio of output thus far. I never got the NES because of the hysteria around hiked prices around it and never understood why that version cost so much.

Thanks Analogue.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

fernan1234 wrote:no PCE system ever supported RGB output, so game developers tuned their RGB code expecting it to be changed on the composite output side. So the colors you get via the composite are the "accurate" colors.
Technically, not a "PC Engine system", but the NEC PC-KD863G monitor displayed PC Engine games natively in RGB. And official game manuals and boxes were full of "RGB" screenshots. So I don't know. I wonder, given that this hardware was by NEC themselves, isn't anybody at least checking what does it do?

Was the GBA color correction table also made just using somebody's eyes?
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Looking at the unit in more details from the website, it kind of makes me wonder why the Megadrive/Genesis version did not include a CDrom as well.

The price seems very reasonable considering past consoles from analogue, that it includes a CDrom as well.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Can you even play Mega CD games with the unofficial firmware on the Mega SG? The Mega CD had a dedicated CPU and chips, unlike the PCE CD unit, so it'd be new code to write and run. And this way, they can sell a brand new Mega SGX or whatever they call it.

Indeed, to justify the simultaneous release of both, the Duo and the Pocket, it's likely that the unofficial firmware for the latter will never support PCE CD games.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Johnpv »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Looking at the unit in more details from the website, it kind of makes me wonder why the Megadrive/Genesis version did not include a CDrom as well.

The price seems very reasonable considering past consoles from analogue, that it includes a CDrom as well.
The Mega CD is much much more than just a CDROM drive. It's like another second (more powerful in some ways) genesis plus a cd drive. That is not the case with the PC Engine CD add on. You would need an FPGA like double the size to do Genesis and Mega CD.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Guspaz »

ASDR wrote:That is very frustrating. And even if they would eventually fix all the issues, what does that help if you can't buy the thing. All that BS about 'preservation' when their product is less available that 30 years old originals. Just look at their store:

https://www.analogue.co/store/

It's all sold out, out of stock, discontinued. Boy, these things are as hard to buy as SCART RGB cables...
The Mega Sg is in stock, actually.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Lawfer »

EnragedWhale wrote:
bigbadboaz wrote:I have little doubt Kevtris will patch that in (if it's even an issue in the original shipping form). His reputation says that this is too big a thing to ignore.
I’m not so sure. The latest Mega SG firmware (that’s nearly a year old) broke compatibility with Sonic CD and Final Fight CD when using a real mega CD. You’d have thought that was too big to ignore but ignore it they have.
Ah it's not too bad, even on original hardware (real Genesis 2 + real Sega CD 2) I have got Popful Mail which won't work on it (apparently it's an issue the game has with the Sega CD Model 2), gives you a "MAIN-CPU ERROR" message whenever you try to start the game, apparently Analogue fixed this issue on their end, while on completely original hardware this issue remains.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by fernan1234 »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Technically, not a "PC Engine system", but the NEC PC-KD863G monitor displayed PC Engine games natively in RGB. And official game manuals and boxes were full of "RGB" screenshots. So I don't know. I wonder, given that this hardware was by NEC themselves, isn't anybody at least checking what does it do?

Was the GBA color correction table also made just using somebody's eyes?
The PCE color correction was not made by eye, but by figuring out the color conversion table that the hardware uses. For the GBA (and GBC), yes, it has been done by eye since the only references are non-backlit screens which are affected by the external light that makes them visible, the frontlight design of something like the AGS-001 SP or the phat DS, or the GBA Micro OXY-001 in which Nintendo seems to have implemented a form of color correction. That's why the color filters on MiSTer, GBAConsolizer, Retroarch shaders (and potentially the Pocket) are not exactly the same but still offer very good approximations.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Strider77 »

I have to confess... I want one. But I'm not holding my breath after the pocket. That whole pocket fiasco probably has the panic affect signalling the vultures.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by jd213 »

I would've been all over this a few years ago despite still having my Duo from college (now recapped/RGB modded but probably needs some laser adjustments), but will be passing now that I own a Mister, which has far more user options and already lets me play my own CDs (as long as I've ripped them in advance, but I'm not picky).

And of course I'm not really fond of Analogue's business practices or expensive shipping charges, but a bigger reason is that I've spent too much money and not enough time on my hobbies in already.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by cyborc »

jd213 wrote:I've spent too much money and not enough time on my hobbies in already.
this certainly hits home with me.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

bobrocks95 wrote:Hard to argue against when the Duo-R I bought (in Japan even) and had modded ended up costing me double what they're selling this for.
Yep, even the optional Super CD-Rom2 Interface Unit add-on (for use with the original PCE, Core Grafx I & II & Super Grafx consoles) with internal RGB mod, re-capped & laser adjusted will set one back at $430.00 USD & up (assuming if you find one at that particular price these days). Certainly not cheap nowadays. The interesting thing is, the Super CD-Rom2 Interface Unit uses the same 100v AC adapter like that of it's PCE Duo/Duo-R/Duo-RX console counterparts.

Fascinating with this upcoming Analogue Duo setup with it's initial selling price point a hundred more over the mini PCE/TG-16/Core Grafx consoles. Sounds like the perfect companion to compliment the original beloved & much revered PCE hardware.

I see that a used NEC PCE GT/Turbo Express goes for $450.00 USD & up these days. It used to be that one could pick up a brand new boxed NEC TE for a mere $99.99 USD back in February of 1995 -- quite a steal at the time.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by korpse413 »

Batteries - err I mean controllers not included :D

The 8bitdo controllers look neat, I wouldn't mind picking up one, too bad there isn't a receiver for the original system

This thing should be able to play burned CD-Rs right? I don't see why it wouldn't
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