Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

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PC Engine Fan X!
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Yeah, that'd be ace if the PCE 8bitdo controllers did have a dedicated receiver for the original PCE hardware -- the manufacturer should look into making it a reality. Surely it would run circles over NEC's 1st-party PCE wireless controllers any ol' day with their limited "line of sight" to make 'em work properly.

Yes, the Analogue Duo should be able to play burned CD-Rs just like with the original PCE CD-Rom hardware.

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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Galgomite »

I’m buying one if I can get one. I honestly can’t resist any of Analogue’s consoles, save, oddly, the Pocket. I might grab one if I get the chance but I don’t enjoy squinting at a tiny screen like I used to.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Taiyaki »

Analogue's new Duo only outputs HDMI right? I wish they'd have added RGB or Component at least. What a missed opportunity.
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parodius
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by parodius »

Taiyaki wrote:Analogue's new Duo only outputs HDMI right? I wish they'd have added RGB or Component at least. What a missed opportunity.
That's because they sell a separate product, the 'Analogue DAC', that provides just this functionnality.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67016
Yet to be confirmed explicitely that it will be supported by the Duo, but they did say at some point that all their future products would support it, IIRC.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by EnragedWhale »

parodius wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:Analogue's new Duo only outputs HDMI right? I wish they'd have added RGB or Component at least. What a missed opportunity.
That's because they sell a separate product, the 'Analogue DAC', that provides just this functionnality.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67016
Yet to be confirmed explicitely that it will be supported by the Duo, but they did say at some point that all their future products would support it, IIRC.
It’s now listed on their website as supporting the DAC.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Taiyaki »

Thanks for the info. I still find it silly that one would need a DAC when all they needed to do was add an analogue connection (the fact they're called analogue and don't have analogue is ironic), but this is great news anyway. Thanks.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by EnragedWhale »

Taiyaki wrote:Thanks for the info. I still find it silly that one would need a DAC when all they needed to do was add an analogue connection (the fact they're called analogue and don't have analogue is ironic), but this is great news anyway. Thanks.
It’s too keep the cost down for the majority of their customers who don’t need analogue support. No point having an internal DAC in every console they make when you can buy one external one and use it for all of them.

Unfortunately it doesn’t work with non-analogue consoles though which would have really increased its appeal.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Fudoh »

The sily thing here is that 15khz output is locked to the use of Analogue's own DAC, when - from a technical perspective - any $15 converter box would do the trick as long as we were allowed to enable 240p within the system's internal settings.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by korpse413 »

What are the chances of this thing being able to play different consoles discs with a jailbreak or similar? Am I foolish for thinking this might be a thing? The fact it has a disc drive is sweet
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bigbadboaz »

They have a pretty solid history of wide-ranging jailbreaks, but for them to "upgrade" the disc drive seems iffy. Just playing other systems' ROMs is typical and more likely.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Guspaz »

None of their systems since their very first fpga console has supported unrelated systems using the jailbreak firmware. The Super Nt doesn't support any others at all, and the Mega Sg only supports those that use the same CPUs as the base system itself.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by ApolloBoy »

Guspaz wrote:None of their systems since their very first fpga console has supported unrelated systems using the jailbreak firmware.
The Nt mini jailbreak supports a wide variety of consoles from the Atari 2600 down to the Game Gear, a good chunk of which are completely unrelated to the NES.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by BazookaBen »

Fudoh wrote:The sily thing here is that 15khz output is locked to the use of Analogue's own DAC, when - from a technical perspective - any $15 converter box would do the trick as long as we were allowed to enable 240p within the system's internal settings.
Most external DAC's have a minimum pixel clock, so the Analogue systems would have to multiply the horizontal resolution.

So that's doable, but I think Analogue's DAC's also have upgradeable firmware to control how the DAC encodes color data depending on the system.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Dochartaigh »

My biggest question is if it'll be jailbroken to play both PCE/TG16 card AND CD (ISO or whatnot) files off the SD card like the Nt Mini, Mega Sg, and Super Nt can for their respective systems. Some are saying maybe not since Kevtris isn't the one programming the FPGA (although he is supervising as their lead designer).


Then this also confounds me: Kevtris posted on AtariAge forums a while ago saying the Pocket can play SNES and Genesis too. They just said the Pocket can also now play PCE (and if the Pocket can do all that, and the FPGA is open for developers, probably NES too).

...So since Pocket can be used in a dock, over HDMI, complete with wireless controllers and such, why would somebody (who isn't into collecting expensive real games) get the Duo which can only play PCE/TG16 over the Pocket which can play GB, GBC, GBA, SNES, Genesis, PCE and probably a bunch of others?

The above confuses me because until now their main units (Mega Sg/Super Nt) were ALWAYS locked down (in a nutshell) to one particular system - like somebody already touched upon: even through they still have pretty much the same exact hardware/FPGA inside and could easily play all these other systems you're still forced to buy 1 unit for SNES, and another for Genesis (which I have no problem with, and certainly maximizes their profits).... but then they come out with the dockable Pocket which can play ALL of this stuff... even advertise it as open to game developers... which kinda looks like it could eat into all their other products sales numbers (and yes, availability could play into this, but I'm talking if they at least attempt to always keep the Pocket in stock like they've been *trying* to do with the Mega Sg/Super Nt).
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bobrocks95 »

Dochartaigh wrote:My biggest question is if it'll be jailbroken to play both PCE/TG16 card AND CD (ISO or whatnot) files off the SD card like the Nt Mini, Mega Sg, and Super Nt can for their respective systems. Some are saying maybe not since Kevtris isn't the one programming the FPGA (although he is supervising as their lead designer).


Then this also confuses me: Kevtris posted on AtariAge forums a while ago saying the Pocket can play SNES and Genesis too. They just said the Pocket can also now play PCE (and if the Pocket can do all that, and the FPGA is open for developers, probably NES too).

...So since Pocket can be used in a dock, over HDMI, complete with wireless controllers and such, why would somebody (who isn't into collecting expensive real games) get the Duo which can only play PCE/TG16 over the Pocket which can play GB, GBC, GBA, SNES, Genesis, PCE and probably a bunch of others?
If you don't have a game collection already, why use a docked Pocket over a Mister setup?
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by azmun »

Little detail that no one seems to have mentioned and could be deal breaker for me. There are supposed to be two versions of this: US and JPN. I believe the original controller port for the Turbo Grafx-16 is not the same as the PC Engine. Not sure how it was/is with the Duo. In any case, the official specs list the product under Special Features with: Original-style TurboGrafx-16 controller port. Does this mean that the original PC Engine controllers will not be compatible?
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Bratwurst »

azmun wrote:Little detail that no one seems to have mentioned and could be deal breaker for me. There are supposed to be two versions of this: US and JPN. I believe the original controller port for the Turbo Grafx-16 is not the same as the PC Engine. Not sure how it was/is with the Duo. In any case, the official specs list the product under Special Features with: Original-style TurboGrafx-16 controller port. Does this mean that the original PC Engine controllers will not be compatible?
The original North American-region Turbo Duo used the same 8-pin mini-din controller connector as its Japanese counterpart, and the PC-Engine, etc. It's the TG-16 that is the odd bird with its phat din connector.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Dochartaigh »

bobrocks95 wrote:If you don't have a game collection already, why use a docked Pocket over a Mister setup?
Easy. Because I want something that looks like a finished polished product sitting on full display in my beautifully setup living room, and not a Mister in a screwed together sheet metal or acrylic project box with ports on every side with wires coming off which I have to manually put together, add RAM to and such, then spend dozens and dozens of hours researching and reading and watching tutorials and following forum posts (if I took on another project that is the depth of research I go to in order to master something). I don't want to mess around with SD cards and programming, and go back on GitHib to download another new version every time they update it then have do everything over and over and over and over again to keep the setup on the cutting edge. Being able to stay a million miles from having to edit a friggin .ini file or similar to get something to work is going to be awesome.

With the Analogue Pocket, if it's like their past systems I literally have to copy over a new custom firmware file to the SD card (and my folder of ROM's I already have curated in subfolders) and that's it. I even already have HDMI and USB wires setup since so many things use those. It already has everything baked in, everything running, all the scanline settings I like are right there and practically setup themselves. I haven't touched any setting or file on my Super Nt or Mega Sg past the first day I got them and they've been perfect. If I want to get *really* crazy (which yes, I did this for both initially), I watch a quick FirebrandX video and copy his video settings, save them, then that's really it.

Added bonus to the Pocket is if I want to go away for a weekend, or have a plane/train to catch I can just pick it up from it's dock and I'm good to go. I already have the charging wire with me from things I normally travel with. Plus, all the chinese-made emulation-box handhelds I was looking at were like $130 for the best, so $70 more for the WAY more polished Pocket was a no-brainer (plus I can use it docked so it was a win-win).
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by bigbadboaz »

My understanding from the FAQ Analogue just put out is that the controller port is PCE-sized, for all units. But even if you end up with the wrong size port, you basically only need a passthrough adapter to change the size.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Guspaz »

ApolloBoy wrote:
Guspaz wrote:None of their systems since their very first fpga console has supported unrelated systems using the jailbreak firmware.
The Nt mini jailbreak supports a wide variety of consoles from the Atari 2600 down to the Game Gear, a good chunk of which are completely unrelated to the NES.
As I said. None of their systems since their very first FPGA console (the NT Mini) has supported unrelated systems. I suppose the Pocket will be an exception, when it comes out.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by shroom2k »

Personally, I'm not excited about this. I don't have any special nostalgia for TG16, and the excellent MiSTer core fits my needs perfectly. I don't find this system's looks attractive either. There is just no point in having this for me.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by thebigcheese »

Dochartaigh wrote:Easy. Because I want something that looks like a finished polished product sitting on full display in my beautifully setup living room, and not a Mister in a screwed together sheet metal or acrylic project box with ports on every side with wires coming off which I have to manually put together, add RAM to and such, then spend dozens and dozens of hours researching and reading and watching tutorials and following forum posts (if I took on another project that is the depth of research I go to in order to master something). I don't want to mess around with SD cards and programming, and go back on GitHib to download another new version every time they update it then have do everything over and over and over and over again to keep the setup on the cutting edge. Being able to stay a million miles from having to edit a friggin .ini file or similar to get something to work is going to be awesome.

With the Analogue Pocket, if it's like their past systems I literally have to copy over a new custom firmware file to the SD card (and my folder of ROM's I already have curated in subfolders) and that's it. I even already have HDMI and USB wires setup since so many things use those. It already has everything baked in, everything running, all the scanline settings I like are right there and practically setup themselves. I haven't touched any setting or file on my Super Nt or Mega Sg past the first day I got them and they've been perfect. If I want to get *really* crazy (which yes, I did this for both initially), I watch a quick FirebrandX video and copy his video settings, save them, then that's really it.

Added bonus to the Pocket is if I want to go away for a weekend, or have a plane/train to catch I can just pick it up from it's dock and I'm good to go. I already have the charging wire with me from things I normally travel with. Plus, all the chinese-made emulation-box handhelds I was looking at were like $130 for the best, so $70 more for the WAY more polished Pocket was a no-brainer (plus I can use it docked so it was a win-win).
I can certainly understand your viewpoint on it not looking particularly "pro" or tidy, although MiSTer Addons is putting out a much cleaner looking case soon, but the rest of your concerns really don't apply anymore. It's incredibly easy to put together yourself, but if you don't want to do that, you can also buy one preassembled with everything already loaded onto the SD card for you. Or you can just buy the SD card already set up and assemble the box yourself to save a few dollars. And then, to update, you just run the update script on the device itself, no GitHub fiddling needed. It's pretty darn close to plug and play these days and, while still not nearly as polished as an Analogue product, pretty user friendly overall. All the scanlines and other filters are right there under the filters settings. There's almost no reason to fiddle with a text editor anymore except for maybe the resolution, but even that might have a script to adjust it (I didn't bother looking as I don't mind manual editing here and there).
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Fudoh »

although MiSTer Addons is putting out a much cleaner looking case soon
is there a preview available on that?
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by fernan1234 »

thebigcheese wrote:It's pretty darn close to plug and play these days
It really is (MiSTer).
thebigcheese wrote:There's almost no reason to fiddle with a text editor anymore except for maybe the resolution, but even that might have a script to adjust it (I didn't bother looking as I don't mind manual editing here and there).
There is indeed such a script with UI and it is included by default. There are really no excuses nowadays, especially since it's also possible to get a pre-configured card where all you need to do is drop your games in the corresponding folders.

Also, I would be extremely surprised if the PCE core for this Analogue console is even close to the MiSTer's in accuracy (it is extremely high), especially if Kevtris is not even the lead programmer for it as someone commented earlier. And even if Kevtris were in charge of it, as talented as he is, I wonder if he can reproduce what a group of programmers and collaborators that have been passionate about the PCE for years were able to achieve collectively in refining the core for MiSTer to its unbelievable level this year.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by BazookaBen »

fernan1234 wrote: And even if Kevtris were in charge of it, as talented as he is, I wonder if he can reproduce what a group of programmers and collaborators that have been passionate about the PCE for years were able to achieve collectively in refining the core for MiSTer to its unbelievable level this year.
The difference is that it's Kevtris' full time job.

That said, I'm curious who did most of the work on this one and what their background is.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Bratwurst »

Fudoh wrote:
although MiSTer Addons is putting out a much cleaner looking case soon
is there a preview available on that?
https://twitter.com/MisterAddons/status ... 2403666944
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by Dochartaigh »

thebigcheese wrote:It's pretty darn close to plug and play these days
Yeah... they say that same exact thing about RetroPie for example (and many, many, many other similar ones).... I stopped counting, no exaggeration, at about 300 hours over 1.5 years or so for my perfected RetroPie/RP3 setup (used to sell hundreds of the custom NES cartridge ones back in the day so had to perfect it/tweak it to no end and learn all the intricacies).

Certainly the plug and play images and sudo update scripts (guessing here it's something like that on Mister) sounds awesome, and great for the majority of people... but for me, there's always a huge difference between plug and play 'good enough' and actually knowing what and how it runs intimately so you can tweak it, and I would never be happy with a plug and play solution and not know how it all works or how to set it up from absolute scratch which is why I don't want to get into a Mister project.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Bratwurst wrote:
azmun wrote:Little detail that no one seems to have mentioned and could be deal breaker for me. There are supposed to be two versions of this: US and JPN. I believe the original controller port for the Turbo Grafx-16 is not the same as the PC Engine. Not sure how it was/is with the Duo. In any case, the official specs list the product under Special Features with: Original-style TurboGrafx-16 controller port. Does this mean that the original PC Engine controllers will not be compatible?
The original North American-region Turbo Duo used the same 8-pin mini-din controller connector as its Japanese counterpart, and the PC-Engine, etc. It's the TG-16 that is the odd bird with its phat din connector.
Yep, with NEC's TG-16 console was endowed with the bigger din connector setup with the Turbo Tap, Turbo Pad & the Turbo Stick. When Turbo Technologies Incorporated (TTI) released the Turbo Duo console stateside, they eventually released an optional NEC branded TG-16 to Duo controller adapter so one could use all of the above listed TG-16 accessories/controllers with it.

TTI even setup Turbo Duo demo kiosks at the American Toys-R-Us store locations across the USA back in 1993. I recall trying out the slick Gate of Thunder stg game that was setup to try out free of charge. The funny thing is I've never seen those uber-rare TTI Turbo Duo demo kiosks since then. The demo Turbo Duo console was encased behind a plastic display case partition and was quite a sight to behold. Of course, if you went to the video game console display aisle, you'd see the MSRP of the Turbo Duo with a $299.99 USD price point (back in December of 1993, into 1994 and even as late of February of 1995 with the same price tag). Eventually, one could buy a brand new boxed Turbo Duo for a mere $99.99 USD back in November of 1994 at select retailers (if you knew where to get 'em at that clearance price point).

It's a given that NEC did release non-playable demo console samples of the TG-16 with TG-CD unit attached and all related accessories that accompanied it was encased in a plastic see-through box for prospective buyers to look at before buying one back in 1989-1990 at Montgomery Ward's locations across the USA as well. They had a sticker saying "The TG-CD unit won't operate without a TG-16 console in place". Those were the days of lore with the TG-16 & the Turbo Duo.

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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by kamiboy »

I wonder when, if ever, these kinds of products will start embracing newer technologies such as HDMI 2.1, including native 4k output and VRR. Outputting 1080p seems so old fashioned.
Last edited by kamiboy on Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue

Post by ASDR »

kamiboy wrote:I wonder when, if ever, these kinds of products will start embracing newer technologies since such as HDMI 2.1, including native 4k output and VRR. Outputting 1080p seems so old fashioned.
From the OSSC Pro discussion the issue seems to be:

- An FPGA capable of implementing HDMI 2.1 and the required IP blocks for it are prohibitively expensive
- There are no suitable stand-alone HDMI 2.1 transceivers that could be paired up with an FPGA
- Some SoC with HDMI 2.1 support would not allow the low-level control required for implementing a zero-lag scaler or FPGA clone console

Might be a few more years before it becomes viable for a sane price.
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