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 Post subject: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:27 pm 


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Image

https://www.analogue.co/duo/

Two colors to choose from:

Image

Also PC Engine compatibility added for Analogue Pocket:

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:55 pm 


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Hard to argue against when the Duo-R I bought (in Japan even) and had modded ended up costing me double what they're selling this for.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:59 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Hard to argue against when the Duo-R I bought (in Japan even) and had modded ended up costing me double what they're selling this for.


Original hardware always end up costing double or triple (or sometimes even more) what you would pay for an FPGA.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:06 pm 


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Yeah guys I'm buying the shit out of this. Kevtris is a madman


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:42 pm 



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Quote:
Yeah guys I'm buying the shit out of this. Kevtris is a madman


I am tempted, although I have zero need. Mister already does both and I do not have too many original PC Engine games. I have an SSDS3... but man is it sexy... we'll see if they even make it possible for folks to buy it. So bummed about the pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:53 pm 


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I really think that the demand for a TG16/PCE system is nowhere near of that for their handheld system. My best guess would be that it should at least be as easily (well, compared to their pocket) available as their Super Nt / Mega SG systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:58 pm 



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Unlike previous models doesn't mention DAC support, so if there's no analogue output this makes it a deal-breaker for the more purist PCE fan that plays on CRTs.

The slot for HuCards doesn't seem large enough for a Turbo Everdrive, though eventual support for ROM loading via unofficial firmware is likely.

BTW, the MiSTer's core for this system attained incredible accuracy levels earlier this year, and more recently added original color filters that replicate the original composite colors but with the sharpness of RGB, something that no RGB mod can provide on original hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:07 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
I really think that the demand for a TG16/PCE system is nowhere near of that for their handheld system. My best guess would be that it should at least be as easily (well, compared to their pocket) available as their Super Nt / Mega SG systems.


The Super Nt is not (anymore) easily available, it's been sold out for quite a while and now it sells for like 800-900 bucks in new condition on ebay.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:08 pm 


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Quote:
he slot for HuCards doesn't seem large enough for a Turbo Everdrive

that depends on how deep the cards get actually inserted. I don't think we have a picture of that yet, have we?


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:09 pm 


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The Super Nt is not (anymore) easily available, it's been sold out for quite a while and now it sells for like 800-900 bucks in new condition on ebay.

yeah, well, but it was really easily available. Multiple runs even and certainly not sold out within minutes on a dying web server like the pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:10 pm 


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I think I’m going to pick up one of these for sure, and compared to the cost of original hardware (plus any additional mods) it’s actually a pretty good deal. Not to mention that this can also play SuperGrafx games, which makes it even more appealing now that SG consoles are astronomically expensive these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:13 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
I really think that the demand for a TG16/PCE system is nowhere near of that for their handheld system. My best guess would be that it should at least be as easily (well, compared to their pocket) available as their Super Nt / Mega SG systems.


The Super Nt is not (anymore) easily available, it's been sold out for quite a while and now it sells for like 800-900 bucks in new condition on ebay.


Ugh I just moved and got rid of my box and everything. Otherwise mine is mint. Very tempting to sell mine.. its not like I don't have an original snes, ossc, and a mister....


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:21 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
and more recently added original color filters that replicate the original composite colors but with the sharpness of RGB, something that no RGB mod can provide on original hardware.


I am curious, tell me more on this? Wouldn't a PC Engine Duo with a Voultar RGB Mod not be able to have accurate colors? The mod isn't tapping directly in the RGB Lines or something? Is it a similar situation to the NES/Famicom?

Fudoh wrote:
yeah, well, but it was really easily available.


True.

KonradKlaus wrote:
Ugh I just moved and got rid of my box and everything. Otherwise mine is mint. Very tempting to sell mine.. its not like I don't have an original snes, ossc, and a mister....


That's going to bring down the price, but you can still get a good amount of money for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:31 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
I am curious, tell me more on this? Wouldn't a PC Engine Duo with a Voultar RGB Mod not be able to have accurate colors? The mod isn't tapping directly in the RGB Lines or something?


An RGB mod indeed taps into the RGB lines, giving you the raw RGB colors, but the idea is that no PCE system ever supported RGB output, so game developers tuned their RGB code expecting it to be changed on the composite output side. So the colors you get via the composite are the "accurate" colors.

People figured out a color matrix to go from RGB to the "accurate" composite colors. After being used to the raw RGB colors for years and checking out this color filter on MiSTer I have to say that the latter look much more natural, while I see better now how the RGB colors can be a bit garish. I strongly suggest everyone to check it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:36 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
An RGB mod indeed taps into the RGB lines


With the exception of the NESRGB Mod, though.


fernan1234 wrote:
giving you the raw RGB colors, but the idea is that no PCE system ever supported RGB output, so game developers tuned their RGB code expecting it to be changed on the composite output side. So the colors you get via the composite are the "accurate" colors.


Interesting, thank you for the information, it somehwat reminds me of the NES/Famicom/Famicom Titler situation (albeit with some differences).

Found some interesting info on this:

"One thing worth mentioning, the PC Engine / TG16 has flaw where the composite output has accurate color reproduction where the RGB actually seems to crush the colors."

https://www.reddit.com/r/TurboGrafx/com ... han_peers/


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:03 pm 


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This system is really cool, no doubt.

But if there's anything I've learned from 10+ years of involvement in the retrogaming mods/maker community, it's that no matter how much money you throw at this stuff, there's always another, better solution around the corner to make you feel silly for it. Anyone remember RGB PPUs pulled from PlayChoice arcades selling for $200+ just so that they could be modded into NES systems for RGB output, even though it was hacky as hell and had the wrong colors (not just wrong because of RGB vs. composite, but wrong because of being a completely different palette)?

Don't fool yourself into super expensive purchases just because of Analogue's artificial scarcity tactics. This may be the best way to play TG/PCE games today -- and a really cool one at that -- but one day it'll be just another clone console. Analogue's original Neo Geo and NES offerings are outdated now, too.

This isn't another "just get a MiSTer" post -- I don't have one myself -- but one day the community efforts on projects like MiSTer will evolve into polished multi-console FPGA offerings. I'd highly recommend sticking with original hardware mods if you want the collectability factor, and if not, pursuing community project solutions that won't destroy your wallet because the company wants to play games with artificial scarcity, or other unreasonable business practices (looking at businesses like Analogue, TerraOnion, Mnemo, Cybdyn, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:10 pm 


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darcagn wrote:
But if there's anything I've learned from 10+ years of involvement in the retrogaming mods/maker community, it's that no matter how much money you throw at this stuff, there's always another, better solution around the corner to make you feel silly for it. Anyone remember RGB PPUs pulled from PlayChoice arcades selling for $200+ just so that they could be modded into NES systems for RGB output, even though it was hacky as hell and had the wrong colors?


Oh I know, this is also why people got a Famicom Titler for, RGB PPU that you can mod for RGB output, so you can get the wrong color palettes in glorious RGB.


darcagn wrote:
Don't fool yourself into super expensive purchases just because of Analogue's artificial scarcity tactics. This may be the best way to play TG/PCE games today -- and a really cool one at that -- but one day it'll be just another clone console. Analogue's original Neo Geo and NES offerings are outdated now, too.


The Neo Geo from Analogue was original hardware though, just in a wood enclosure and apparently wasn't very good because it had the wrong colors (Scarlet Pixels talked about that among other youtubers who made videos about this).


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:16 pm 


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Hm. I'm sure it'll be a quality device, but everything surrounding these products is putting me off. Some mad rush to pre-order one, stupid hype from mainstream publications, eBay scalpers, sold out for months, one-last-batch shenanigans and then I wonder if it'll get a jailbreak because it kinda feels stupid to buy an EverDrive for a clone console. And even if I get one I'll have to pay through the nose on shipping / customs. I think a this point I'll just use my original hardware till it all turns to dust and replacements are unavailable and then get a Mister. Or maybe the OSSC Pro can do all of this in the end anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:18 pm 


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Love the hardware design. I've already invested a bunch of money getting into the PCE world with og hardware so will be skipping this (sunk cost ftw, I actually love the original hardware though) but really tempted by the pocket now!

fernan1234 wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
I am curious, tell me more on this? Wouldn't a PC Engine Duo with a Voultar RGB Mod not be able to have accurate colors? The mod isn't tapping directly in the RGB Lines or something?


An RGB mod indeed taps into the RGB lines, giving you the raw RGB colors, but the idea is that no PCE system ever supported RGB output, so game developers tuned their RGB code expecting it to be changed on the composite output side. So the colors you get via the composite are the "accurate" colors.

People figured out a color matrix to go from RGB to the "accurate" composite colors. After being used to the raw RGB colors for years and checking out this color filter on MiSTer I have to say that the latter look much more natural, while I see better now how the RGB colors can be a bit garish. I strongly suggest everyone to check it out.


I saw that voultar noticed this a few months back and started work on a component video mod but I think there wasn't enough bandwidth so he's creating an S-Video mod instead. I was going to ask about this here since I have an RGB kit ready to fit in a TurboDuo that I might hold off from using it now.

Image
Image

I have no idea if an improved RGB mod for og hardware is possible but I'm okay with using S-video.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:23 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
darcagn wrote:
Don't fool yourself into super expensive purchases just because of Analogue's artificial scarcity tactics. This may be the best way to play TG/PCE games today -- and a really cool one at that -- but one day it'll be just another clone console. Analogue's original Neo Geo and NES offerings are outdated now, too.


The Neo Geo from Analogue was original hardware though, just in a wood enclosure and apparently wasn't very good because it had the wrong colors (Scarlet Pixels talked about that among other youtubers who made videos about this).


Their first NES was original hardware, too (well, the CPU and PPU were original, with a newly manufactured motherboard, and the RGB output used a Tim Worthington board, before they hired Kevtris). I suppose "clone" is the incorrect term to use for those two consoles, but my point being that those were "omg gotta have it" god-tier versions of those consoles when they were released, and now they're in this weird area where they're not collectable parts of gaming history like original hardware, but nor are they amazing cutting-edge systems anymore either. They're just a curiosity at this point. I don't know if they are still sought after, but personally I have zero enthusiasm to own those units unlike the days they were sold when I really wanted them.

ASDR wrote:
Hm. I'm sure it'll be a quality device, but everything surrounding these products is putting me off. Some mad rush to pre-order one, stupid hype from mainstream publications, eBay scalpers, sold out for months, one-last-batch shenanigans and then I wonder if it'll get a jailbreak because it kinda feels stupid to buy an EverDrive for a clone console. And even if I get one I'll have to pay through the nose on shipping / customs. I think a this point I'll just use my original hardware till it all turns to dust and replacements are unavailable and then get a Mister. Or maybe the OSSC Pro can do all of this in the end anyway.


Exactly how I feel. All of this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, when other solutions are sure to come around in time.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:27 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
Hard to argue against when the Duo-R I bought (in Japan even) and had modded ended up costing me double what they're selling this for.


Original hardware always end up costing double or triple (or sometimes even more) what you would pay for an FPGA.


This is where I'm always confused when people argue in favor of Analogue products. A Genesis or SNES are what, $50 on ebay? Even if you include stuff like the cost of an OSSC, that's subsidized by the number of consoles you'll use it on. I can get a full RGB OSSC setup for a SNES and Genesis for less than $350, with original hardware, and room to grow with more devices... That's double or triple the $400 + shipping for Analogue's two clones?

These clones offer a lot of features in a convenient package, but they aren't for everyone and they aren't (in most cases) 2-3x cheaper like you're saying. They're (nicely made) $200 (hardware) emulation boxes. Whether those factors bother you, or you'll be using the Analogue devices to their full potential, is up to you and dependent on what you already have/want.

In *this* case, it's a $200 alternative to a much more expensive console setup. In the Pocket's case there's really no alternatives. But saying original hardware always costs more doesn't make sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:32 pm 


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Gunstar wrote:
Image
Image


Picture is from this thread:

https://pcengine.proboards.com/thread/9 ... per-colors


darcagn wrote:
but my point being that those were "omg gotta have it" god-tier versions of those consoles when they were released, and now they're in this weird area where they're not collectable parts of gaming history like original hardware, but nor are they amazing cutting-edge systems anymore either. They're just a curiosity at this point. I don't know if they are still sought after, but personally I have zero enthusiasm to own those units unlike the days they were sold when I really wanted them.


Well, that's probably because if you don't care for discs/cartridges nor enclosures that ressembles the original systems, then there's the MiSTer FPGA now who's smaller and can do all in one (and hence comes out overall cheaper).


Last edited by Lawfer on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
But saying original hardware always costs more doesn't make sense to me.


I've fallen into this 'trap' many times, thinking, "hey, I should just get XYZ, I see them for next to nothing on eBay, it'll be cheap" and then ending up spending way, way more. It usually goes like this:

- I should buy this for 50EUR
- No, wait, I need to import the NTSC version, 100EUR after shipping and customs
- Crap, most of these have blurry RGB or bad sound, I need the special revision, the good one, 150EUR
- All the China cables have audio buzz and checkerboarding on the video, original cables are collector's items, need fully shielded cable from RGC, 200EUR
- I'll also need an EverDrive, 350EUR now
- Why is the vertical stand / color matching GameBoy player / controller extension coord / MPEG decoder card / RGB mod PCB / region lock remover / FM-sound chip / other weird add-on I didn't initially think about so friggin expensive, 450EUR

It'll be cheap, they said.

So not saying that original hardware is not frequently cheaper, but the price for the console can be deceptive. A Wii or a PS2 console can easiliy be found for less than a quality (OEM/RA/RGC) SCART RGB cable for the system. That can make an FPGA console actually cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:57 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
I've fallen into this 'trap' many times, thinking, "hey, I should just get XYZ, I see them for next to nothing on eBay, it'll be cheap" and then ending up spending way, way more. It usually goes like this:

- I should buy this for 50EUR
- No, wait, I need to import the NTSC version, 100EUR after shipping and customs
- Crap, most of these have blurry RGB or bad sound, I need the special revision, the good one, 150EUR
- All the China cables have audio buzz and checkerboarding on the video, original cables are collector's items, need fully shielded cable from RGC, 200EUR
- I'll also need an EverDrive, 350EUR now
- Why is the vertical stand / color matching GameBoy player / controller extension coord / MPEG decoder card / RGB mod PCB / region lock remover / FM-sound chip / other weird add-on I didn't initially think about so friggin expensive, 450EUR

It'll be cheap, they said.

So not saying that original hardware is not frequently cheaper, but the price for the console can be deceptive. A Wii or a PS2 console can easiliy be found for less than a quality (OEM/RA/RGC) SCART RGB cable for the system. That can make an FPGA console actually cheaper.


This trap sounds more like a lack of planning and research than anything else, so I'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare accidentally buying multiples to the costs of an FPGA console.

But I do get what you're saying, I have multiples of several consoles because the one I owned as a child isn't compatible with a certain mod, etc. and certainly for some, all that planning requires time that could be better spent elsewhere and that may make the Analogue console a net win even at such a higher cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:03 pm 



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Gunstar wrote:
Image
Image

I have no idea if an improved RGB mod for og hardware is possible but I'm okay with using S-video.


The color translation table that David Shadoff mentioned there was worked out a while after that. He was very active in contributing to the virtual perfection of the MiSTer core, which now provides the best of all worlds. An S-video mod would be a nice solution for original hardware too, only disadvantage being that it would be a less sharp picture than what one is used to from an RGB mod or from the MiSTer's analogue output.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:08 pm 


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darcagn wrote:
This trap sounds more like a lack of planning and research than anything else, so I'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare accidentally buying multiples to the costs of an FPGA console.


That list doesn't include accidental purchases and is meant to represent what happens during the research phase.

Imagine how I walk past an NES at the flea market for 20EUR and then after thinking it through I realize that what I actually need, an RGB modded NTSC NES with an EverDrive and proper cables and whatever, costs more than order of magnitude more. Saying you can buy a SNES or an MD for 50$ does not mean you get a 1-Chip SNES with quality cables and an EverDrive or a good-revision MD with an RGB Bypass, jailbar fix, region switch and replaced audio caps and whatever for that kind of money.

darcagn wrote:
But I do get what you're saying, I have multiples of several consoles because the one I owned as a child isn't compatible with a certain mod, etc. and certainly for some, all that planning requires time that could be better spent elsewhere and that may make the Analogue console a net win even at such a higher cost.


Yeah, an RGB modded Turbo Duo with a full recap (kinda required for that system), adjusted laser etc. by a reputable modder won't be cheap, neither is an SSDS3. And let's not forget the expensive hand-made military grade SCART cable, sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:17 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Unlike previous models doesn't mention DAC support


It does mention NTSC and PAL output, so I guess that means it supports the DAC? It'd be nice to get confirmation though.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:21 pm 


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@Lawfer - Ah nice, lots more examples in that thread.
fernan1234 wrote:
The color translation table that David Shadoff mentioned there was worked out a while after that. He was very active in contributing to the virtual perfection of the MiSTer core, which now provides the best of all worlds. An S-video mod would be a nice solution for original hardware too, only disadvantage being that it would be a less sharp picture than what one is used to from an RGB mod or from the MiSTer's analogue output.


Very cool about the MiSTer core. He mentioned that it might be possible to make the OSSC correct the RGB output for existing moded hardware but nobody has worked on this or maybe a new FPGA solution to do the lookup would work but it would obviously be expensive. S-Video looks fine to me on a CRT so not too disappointed, just wish I never bought this RGB kit!


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:25 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
Yeah, an RGB modded Turbo Duo with a full recap (kinda required for that system), adjusted laser etc. by a reputable modder won't be cheap, neither is an SSDS3. And let's not forget the expensive hand-made military grade SCART cable, sigh.


Oh you can believe that it will cost quite a pretty penny, I have looked into it before and it will be very expensive all in all.

Gunstar wrote:
S-Video looks fine to me on a CRT so not too disappointed, just wish I never bought this RGB kit!


Just put it for sale on ebay.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue Duo, New PC Engine Duo FPGA From Analogue
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 pm 



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I'm pretty impressed with the design - especially that they're actually including a CD drive! - which looks to be their best effort yet. I just wish they'd included the splash of color that graced the Japanese design on the black version. It's too stark as-is, just like the US Duo, and also doesn't match the 8bitdo Core Grafx controller they're actively cross-promoting in the photographs.

That said, I'm also not in their market. Agree 100% that the state of the MiSTer pretty much makes this redundant, or worse. It really drives home the point that has always bugged me: all their recent consoles are the same FPGA, just configured a different way and repackaged. I hate the idea of buying the same thing over and over when we know they could easily build an all-in-one unit. Well, that's pretty much exactly what the MiSTer is becoming.

(yes, yes, I know the differentiator is the use of actual classic media, but obviously I'm not in the target group that considers that an essential aspect)

As for the idea that these machines will essentially be pointless as time goes on and they are superceded by something else, I'm not so sure. I might have predicted that BEFORE Analogue came on the scene and had so much success. Rationally, the argument that there's no real cachet to a clone machine makes total sense, but these guys have managed to build a serious reputation and now have a brand of their own. The secondary-market insanity with their recent consoles is the biggest indicator here. Rational or not, their units are rising in value just like the actual classic hardware that actually should rise in value. I can't say for sure, but Analogue consoles might stay collector's items in their own right.


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