Hi-Scan Sony HD-CRTs and OSSC - was it a dream?

[HDgaming42]

I was messing around, found an *incredible* combination, took it for granted, and was never able to achieve it again. Maybe someone has attempted something similar?

The image looked like legit 240p with native scanlines. I was so impressed I was contemplating using my KV-34HS420 as a poor man's PVM-20L5, but widescreen. Ugh I wish I could get it back!

I could only accomplish this with the addition of a DVDO Edge. The chain that worked went like this:

Genesis 2 via SCART to OSSC. 5x mode at 1600x1200, with Generic 4:3. Hybrid scanlines. DVI (older OSSC) to HDMI adater--HDMI to HDMI 5 on DVDO Edge. DVDO out HDMI at 1080i to HDMI in of HS420. Through a combination of underscan and zoom functions I could recover the proper aspect ratio.

It looked amazing.

Now anything line 5x simply will not appear on the EDGE. Says unsupported signal, yet I am 100% certain the above combination is what I used previously.

I've factory reset the EDGE, and also attempted to use both Genesis timinig presets provided by Firebrand X.

Any ideas? Anyone else have this same (or similar enough to extrapolate?) chain? Thanks!

[fernan1234]

I used to own the exact same TV and it is indeed great. Never really tried using an external scaler to feed it 1080i from the OSSC though, now I wish I could see what it looks like.

Maybe you should try one of the other 5x modes besides 1600x1200? You could also try finding an Extron DSC 301 HD (or HD-HD), since those are known for making the OSSC's higher line modes much more compatible.

[HDgaming42]

I used to own the exact same TV and it is indeed great. Never really tried using an external scaler to feed it 1080i from the OSSC though, now I wish I could see what it looks like.

Maybe you should try one of the other 5x modes besides 1600x1200? You could also try finding an Extron DSC 301 HD (or HD-HD), since those are known for making the OSSC's higher line modes much more compatible.

Yeah, sadly I've tried them all. I think 1920x1080 displayed a picture but looked awful. I've actually got a DSC 301 HD on it's way, so I'll report back if it succeeds where the EDGE now strangely fails...

[BazookaBen]

Those TV's will also take 540p over the component input. Should look better than 1080i

[fernan1234]

Those TV's will also take 540p over the component input. Should look better than 1080i

It doesn't. Why would half the resolution look better? It's not true that progressive > interlaced in all cases, that's more of a flat panel thing where avoiding deinterlacing is generally good.

720p does look very good on these TVs though, not much different from 1080i. I do recall this particular model (and probably the 30 inch one also) has some problem with 1080i over HDMI causing flagging/bending of the picture from some sources like PS3 or PCs, but 720p didn't have this issue.

[maxtherabbit]

interlaced content looks like filckery shit even on a CRT

[fernan1234]

interlaced content looks like filckery shit even on a CRT

Not really, no. Maybe in some of the very sharp pro monitors with 480i, but not on consumer sets (though this one in particular can't display 480i natively). In fact not there's no noticeable flicker at all for 1080i on any TV or monitor.
So many misconceptions about interlace often being spread around.

[maxtherabbit]

interlaced content looks like filckery shit even on a CRT

Not really, no. Maybe in some of the very sharp pro monitors with 480i, but not on consumer sets (though this one in particular can't display 480i natively). In fact not there's no noticeable flicker at all for 1080i on any TV or monitor.
So many misconceptions about interlace often being spread around.

Says you. I own consumer SD and HD sets and I hate interlaced content

[fernan1234]

Says you. I own consumer SD and HD sets and I hate interlaced content

I'm not going to dispute what you see with your own eyes, but specifically for 1080i do you actually see flicker? If so, on what model of TV or monitor exactly? Genuinely curious.

[maxtherabbit]

Says you. I own consumer SD and HD sets and I hate interlaced content

I'm not going to dispute what you see with your own eyes, but specifically for 1080i do you actually see flicker? If so, on what model of TV or monitor exactly? Genuinely curious.

Samsung TXN3071WHF

[fernan1234]

Samsung TXN3071WHF

Seems like that is a 100Hz TV, which may be part of why. If it was fed PAL 50Hz content that could also be a factor. I have never seen it, but can attest to both this topic's referenced model and multisync BVMs I've used (D20, D24) not having noticeable flicker with 1080i 60Hz content.

[BazookaBen]

It doesn't. Why would half the resolution look better? It's not true that progressive > interlaced in all cases, .

Because we're talking about upscaling 240p games. So you want to keep the progressive look of the image, to avoid the flickering of pixel edges from interlacning.

And it's only really half the resolution on the horizontal axis. Vertical is still 540 lines every 60th of a second.

720p does look very good on these TVs though, not much different from 1080i.

That's because Sony HD CRT's downscale 720p to 1080i. So really, unless there's a bug in the source or TV, 1080i will always look better than 720p because it's not being scaled by the TV.

[fernan1234]

Because we're talking about upscaling 240p games. So you want to keep the progressive look of the image, to avoid the flickering of pixel edges from interlacning.

TC was talking about using an OSSC though, in which case the best result would be with 1080p -> 1080i. Putting 240p straight into these TVs is definitely not a good ideal (though it doesn't look as horrible as some say, still better than 240p linedoubled on an LCD).

That's because Sony HD CRT's downscale 720p to 1080i. So really, unless there's a bug in the source or TV, 1080i will always look better than 720p because it's not being scaled by the TV.

You mean "upscale" though But yeah, it does upscale 720p to 1080i and looks very nice even with the processing. In fact I felt 720p sources looked much better on it than 720p unscaled on a multisync pro CRT (which of course when using an external scaler to do 720p -> 1080i looked better than the TV's 1080i).

[BazookaBen]

TC was talking about using an OSSC though, in which case the best result would be with 1080p -> 1080i.

I'm saying 1080p (or 1200p in the case of the OP) > 540p would be better. At 1080i, you have 540 lines bouncing up and down every 1/60th of a second. At 540p, it's 540 lines in a static position.

the downscaling method makes a big difference though. I think the right move is to go for an integer scale, doubling 240p to 480p, and then centering it inside 540p. Then you can stretch the raster via the service menu to get a full screen picture.

That will basically look like legit 240p.

You mean "upscale" though

No I meant downscale. 1080i is fewer pixels per second. So for 60fps material, 1080i is a lower resolution than 720p.

[maxtherabbit]

Samsung TXN3071WHF

Seems like that is a 100Hz TV, which may be part of why. If it was fed PAL 50Hz content that could also be a factor. I have never seen it, but can attest to both this topic's referenced model and multisync BVMs I've used (D20, D24) not having noticeable flicker with 1080i 60Hz content.

if that TV supports 100Hz that's news to me. I don't own a single piece of PAL equipment, and I live in the USA

[Blair]

HDgaming42, did you make sure the DVDO Edge is set to "game mode"? on my Edge Green+OSSC 1.6 non of the higher line modes work unless the Edge Green is set to game mode. (its the same for citrus3000psi's DVDO Duo. game mode has to be on for anything above line 2x)

[Downcry]

One thing to keep in mind is that for the HDMI inputs on these sets, you need to trick them into accepting 540p by sending them a 1080i signal first; you’ll need to do this every time you turn the TV on. It’s better to get a cheap HDMI to Component adapter, cause the component inputs don’t have this limitation.

[HDgaming42]

HDgaming42, did you make sure the DVDO Edge is set to "game mode"? on my Edge Green+OSSC 1.6 non of the higher line modes work unless the Edge Green is set to game mode. (its the same for citrus3000psi's DVDO Duo. game mode has to be on for anything above line 2x)

Yes, game mode was enabled. Actually toggled it back off and on again to see if there would be a change. I'm holding out hope that the Extron 301 will work.

One thing to keep in mind is that for the HDMI inputs on these sets, you need to trick them into accepting 540p by sending them a 1080i signal first; you’ll need to do this every time you turn the TV on. It’s better to get a cheap HDMI to Component adapter, cause the component inputs don’t have this limitation.

But how does one send a 540p signal? It seems the EDGE would require some EDID trickery, as that is not a resolution that is available, nor is it one the OSSC supports...

[BazookaBen]

But how does one send a 540p signal? It seems the EDGE would require some EDID trickery, as that is not a resolution that is available, nor is it one the OSSC supports...

Oh, I thought DVDO processors allowed you to create custom output resolutions.

If they need to read it from the EDID, a Dr. HDMI would be an easy way to make that happen.

One thing to keep in mind is that for the HDMI inputs on these sets, you need to trick them into accepting 540p by sending them a 1080i signal first; you’ll need to do this every time you turn the TV on. It’s better to get a cheap HDMI to Component adapter, cause the component inputs don’t have this limitation.

Interesting. I don't think I ever tried that sequence, so I thought it was only possible on component. That always confused me because I seemed to remember posts from way back on AVS Forum from a guy saying he did it over HDMI

[HDgaming42]

Oh, I thought DVDO processors allowed you to create custom output resolutions.

Most do. The EDGE was marketed as more consumer friendly, and in some ways less flexible because of it.

[strayan]

Yeah it’s there as a default output resolution: