shmups.system11.org

Setup:

- Crosspoint Ultra 88
- Model 2 [J] Saturn via RGBS cable
- CPS2 (HDMI mod) and Mister, both through HDMI->VGA box
- (2) CRT, JVC DT-V, JVC TM-H

I can get the Saturn video coming through fine and dandy directly into both CRTs: TM-H has S-Video direct via standard cable, both TM-H and DT-V have RGB input cards, good via Ebay RGBS cable.

Connecting the Saturn through the Crosspoint seems to totally mess up the sync with nondescript image on TM-H, "sync out of range" on the DT-V.

I have CPS2 and Mister set up in the same way, both through RGBHV, and both signals work perfectly through the Crosspoint. It's just the Saturn that gets corrupted via Crosspoint but is no problem going direct. Is it a resistor/capacitor issue on the cables? Does the Crosspoint do something to break the sync signal (one cable, not HV)? Is there a setting somewhere deep in the Crosspoint that needs a toggle? No issue with audio.

tldr: Saturn works OK direct into CRT, sync gets corrupted through Extron Crosspoint, other machines come through without issue. What's the deal?

How is sync wired in your Saturn's video cable? If it's pulling composite video for sync, that'd be why--Extron gear won't take any sync line that has video data. If you have an NTSC console, you need a cable that's wired to use the composite sync pin instead of composite video. If you have a PAL console, you'll need a cable with a sync stripper in it.

Whatever you do, do not connect a straight CSync cable for an NTSC console to a PAL console, because you'll be feeding the downstream device 9VDC instead of sync, which will certainly damage your equipment.

Yes indeed it's a Japan NTSC, no 9V PAL risk here.

I double checked the pins and pin-out I was using and as you say this cable seems to be taking composite video on the sync cable. Good to know the Extrons don't like it - I didn't see this info anywhere I scoured on the net. Doing a little more digging it seems it should be connected to pin 1.



Anyway, one destroyed ebay cable down trying to bootstrap a fix, I'm waiting for some male plugs to wire my own. Is it still recommended to have the 220uF and 470Ohm on the CSync?

the 470ohm resistor is NO if you're going into the extron

the cap is optional, only certain model 2s require it

For what it's worth, I use 470 ohm resistors on my Saturn RGB cables and they work fine with my Extron switchers. If you're going to rewire the cable to use csync instead of composite, it couldn't hurt to try adding the resistor and see if it works. That way you'll still be able to use it on normal SCART equipment if needed. Keep in mind that no matter what your sync input level is, the Extron will output TTL level sync so your output cable should be attenuated if your monitor requires it.

I've never had to use a capacitor for the sync on any of my Saturns.

My experience with Ebay/Aliexpress SCART cables is that they're usually built for PAL consoles. Often, pin 1 on the Saturn connector is wired to the mode switching pin (pin 8 on the SCART side) and it's simple to rewire the SCART head for Csync.

I have a followup question if that's okay, because I'm fighting with trying to make a cable to go directly from a Saturn to the VGA input of an Extron RGB-HDMI 300A. I have a 470ohm resistor and a 220uF cap on the Sync line, but it's only going to pin 13, which I saw listed as both Horizontal Sync and Composite Sync on a diagram. I'm going to try removing the filter passives when I get a chance, but do I need to have the Saturn's sync running to both Horizontal and Vertical Sync, or does pin 13 work okay as a Composite Sync like that schematic I found says?

If he's going to be making his own cable specifically for the extron, hopefully using BNC, why bother with giving a shit about "normal SCART equipment"

fuck SCART

@maxtherabbit @matt no SCART here, all BNC or RCA.

On the subject of Crosspoint, does anyone have the Matrix software install files they could share? It's behind a registration wall with Extron and there's no response from their crack registration team.

What’s wrong with SCART? Besides being more convenient than several RCA leads?

None that I know. I just don't have any SCART sockets.

Though BNC to BNC is easier to get for a Crosspoint setup than making a BNC to SCART each time. I don't even know where to source SCART plugs in the US to make my own.

I like this guy

So they could have the option to use an OSSC or something down the line

Because despite the silly design of SCART, lots of people use it and read this forum for reference. I don't like SCART either and don't use it for anything except my OSSC input cable, but it's become a de facto standard.

I'm not familiar with that particular device, but according to Extron's website (and other posts on this forum) it will take RGBS but only at 30khz and above. The Saturn may not work.

For devices that accept composite sync though VGA, connect it to pin 13 only.

it's time to leave that in the dustbin of history

Convention, not standard.

Oh, that's most likely the problem then, according to someone helping me out the output of the Saturn's RGB is 15Khz. So the Extron's probably a dead end for this then. Dang. Thanks for the info, at least I know that I need to find something else to use.
Edit: I was recommended trying a GBS8200, and it looks like that might work with a mod. I'll give that a shot.

@HarveyFunbucks:

15kHz = 240p, 480i (Saturn)
30kHz = 480p and above

Today I learned, the hard way, that not all 10-pin DINs are the same shape. Does the Saturn need a special plug?

Keep away from the ones on this page, they're the wrong shape and generally a terrible design, there's not even a way to connect to the sleeve:

https://www.cablesandconnectors.com/26500-26.HTM

I was hoping to confirm sync connection to pin 1 fix my Crosspoint issue but still no progress. I'm hoping these guys can come through with the right pieces:

https://console5.com/store/

Yes, the console5 ones are good. A little complicated to assemble but they're high quality and fit well. They are too narrow for most individually shielded cable so you may have to use a small breakout box close to the console.

I think that's the problem with the multi-pin DINs - the connection pins are so cramped in there. I actually snipped off the unnecessary ones so I could get in with the wires without losing it from the frustration.

In other news, SUCCESS! I jury-rigged a few bits from the cablesandconnectors.com plugs to make sure the pin 1 sync would work - initially my DT-V didn't accept the sync though my TM-H had no troubles. I unplugged and replugged, direct connected, added and removed BNC terminators, and back again, and it came to life for no apparent reason.

Conclusion, and to reiterate the first few responses: For Saturn RGB, Extron Crosspoints don't seem to like passing through pin 8 composite video as the sync signal. For NTSC, pin 1 is what's needed for external sync if you don't want to go through a sync stripper.

Many thx all.

Yes, those mini-DINs are frustrating. My strategy has been to get a cheap Chinese SCART cable, cut it down to about 5" on the console end, and attach a VGA connector with a headphone jack. That way you don't have to solder to the small pins and, although the quality of the cabling is terrible it doesn't matter much because it's short. Then you can just use ready-made VGA to BNC cables.

That was also my plan but my cheap 10-pin DINs don't have all the pins wired which is why I'm having to go into the DIN itself. Unless you've found Saturn SCART cables that have wires on all the necessary pins?

SCART cables made for PAL consoles usually have all the necessary pins connected to make a Csync RGB cable, but the SCART head isn't wired properly for NTSC consoles. It's convenient, but not so much so that it's worth the trouble of hunting down PAL SCART cables if you already have the mini-DIN connector.