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 Post subject: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/720p?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:15 pm 



Joined: 16 Aug 2020
Posts: 13
By integer scale I mean nearest neighbor scaling, simple 2x 1080p or 3x 720p to 4K, without bi-linear filtering or any other sort of interpolation.

We have a 65" Sony X900E which actually can do this but only at 1080p and only on the "Graphics" picture mode. I've heard this is a pretty rare feature, and I've looked but cannot find confirmation whether Sony retained or dropped this in the more recent models. An UltraHDMI modded N64 looks amazing at 1080p with this setting on this TV (shout out to the Turner bros!), and I'm going to add an Analogue Pocket with the dock, and possibly a few more retro consoles with HDMI solutions or an OSSC at some point. However, this is the main shared TV we use in the house, and I'm looking for a smaller 48" or 55" TV for a bedroom to do some light modern and retro gaming as well as movie watching. Tempted by the OLED options. The upcoming OSSC Pro would be a perfect catch-all solution if it could scale to and output 4K, but it sounds like that won't be possible for a while.

I know we are a niche market but there is really no one out there talking about this stuff with regards to TVs, so I'm hoping you guys might be able to help.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:30 pm 



Joined: 16 Aug 2020
Posts: 13
Here's an example of the difference between the two modes on this TV with UltraHDMI at 1080p.

Image

Image

It may not seem like much, but it is a noticeable boost in sharpness even from about 6-8 ft away on a 65 inch TV.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:32 pm 


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It's not quite a 4K TV, but Eve's upcoming 27" 4K monitor integer scales by default (toggle in settings between integer scale and interpolation). 144Hz g-sync and HDMI 2.1 too.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:07 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 409
I think some Panasonic 4k sets do 1080p at least. But those are not available in North America AFIK outside of buying a "Commercial" Monitor maybe and I don't even know if they still have that feature.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products ... Apanasonic
According to this, https://na.panasonic.com/ns/269149_pana ... -chart.pdf Some of their 4k models feature a 1:1 pixel mode. Which I dont' know this is exactly. Because on most of their models they refer to 0% overscan (AKA real 1:1 pixel scaling) as "Dot by Dot" modes. Looking at some of the spec sheets for some of the cheaper models they do offer this Dot by Dot mode in the aspect settings.


The Sony's were the only ones in NA that I knew of that did this and I know that current models do not offer it anymore.

For what it's worth, with a modern Nvidia GPU they have an option in the driver now for Integer Scaling. If it can't be scaled by a factor of at least 2x2, then it will display the resolution with 1:1 pixel mapping. It looks great.
So for PC gaming and emulation you can't ask for much better. (For older programs that are resolution locked, or have their UI become so small at 4k it's unplayable).


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:57 pm 


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BONKERS wrote:
For what it's worth, with a modern Nvidia GPU they have an option in the driver now for Integer Scaling. If it can't be scaled by a factor of at least 2x2, then it will display the resolution with 1:1 pixel mapping. It looks great.
So for PC gaming and emulation you can't ask for much better. (For older programs that are resolution locked, or have their UI become so small at 4k it's unplayable).


For Intel and AMD GPUs, or for older nVidia GPUs, there is also "Lossless Scaling" (available on Steam for around five bucks with a free limited version), which can play almost any windowed game or emulator fullscreen with integer scaling. I think it also supports antialiased scaling for non-integer ratios (AKA sharp bilinear) but it's been a while.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/9930 ... s_Scaling/


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:29 am 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 7
I've spent a few months looking for a solution to this as well. I found a devlce called the HDFury 4K Linker that does the same thing the older Sony TVs do...but not below 1080p yet again.

I found four products, and only one of them is for a large screen:
- Eve Spectrum line of 27" monitors
- Gateway 17" FPD1775W 1280x720 VGA/DVI-only monitor (locked to 16-235 color range)
- Eyoyo 8" 1280x720 HDMI monitor
- using a capture card and software (which will always have at least a 2-frame delay)


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:59 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
A 720p to 2160p line tripler would solve a heck of a lot of problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:06 am 


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strayan wrote:
A 720p to 2160p line tripler would solve a heck of a lot of problems.


I bet the HD Fury guys could make custom firmware for one of their processors to do this. Talk to them on their discord.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:32 am 


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Panasonic OLED has a mode called 1080 pixel by pixel, pretty sure that would suit. However, these sets are very bad at handling OSSC and don’t do any modes other than 2x. And in game mode they don’t allow 4:3 aspect. There’s no 4K/120 either. It’s a real shame such a premium set is so poor with retro gaming and modern games higher than 60hz.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:01 pm 



Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 65
Scarftail wrote:
I found a devlce called the HDFury 4K Linker that does the same thing the older Sony TVs do...but not below 1080p yet again.


Do you mean to say that it's an actual 1080p to 4K line doubler? Does it add lag? Cause that would be kind of the holy grail if you pair it with ossc or other retro gear capable of 1080p output.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:33 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
shroom2k wrote:
Scarftail wrote:
I found a devlce called the HDFury 4K Linker that does the same thing the older Sony TVs do...but not below 1080p yet again.


Do you mean to say that it's an actual 1080p to 4K line doubler? Does it add lag? Cause that would be kind of the holy grail if you pair it with ossc or other retro gear capable of 1080p output.


No afaik it doesn’t line double.

Info from an old thread viewtopic.php?p=1220285#p1220285


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:52 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2474
Scarftail wrote:
I've spent a few months looking for a solution to this as well. I found a devlce called the HDFury 4K Linker that does the same thing the older Sony TVs do...but not below 1080p yet again.

I found four products, and only one of them is for a large screen:
- Eve Spectrum line of 27" monitors
- Gateway 17" FPD1775W 1280x720 VGA/DVI-only monitor (locked to 16-235 color range)
- Eyoyo 8" 1280x720 HDMI monitor
- using a capture card and software (which will always have at least a 2-frame delay)

I would read more about Eve if I were you. Their reputation is not great.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:58 pm 



Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 65
strayan wrote:
shroom2k wrote:
Scarftail wrote:
I found a devlce called the HDFury 4K Linker that does the same thing the older Sony TVs do...but not below 1080p yet again.


Do you mean to say that it's an actual 1080p to 4K line doubler? Does it add lag? Cause that would be kind of the holy grail if you pair it with ossc or other retro gear capable of 1080p output.


No afaik it doesn’t line double.

Info from an old thread viewtopic.php?p=1220285#p1220285


Thanks for the link! Very illuminating. Still, I guess in theory this might be a better solution than most in-built scalers in modern TVs.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:47 am 


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One of the recent Sony low-mid models had an integer scale mode for 1080p. I think it's the X90F but you'd have to check if it's that one

And a couple years prior there was a Panasonic model that did.
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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:16 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
The setting is referred to as “1080p Pixel by 4pixel” on the Panasonic models: https://www.avforums.com/threads/1080p- ... s.1951131/


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:48 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 256
Does anyone here use integer scaling with non-240p, pixel art stuff? Trying to decide whether this is an avenue worth going down for some seventh/eighth-gen stuff. In theory, I can see little reason why integer scaling would look worse than native outside of maybe screen-door effect, but that can be subjective.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:19 pm 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 7
ross wrote:
Does anyone here use integer scaling with non-240p, pixel art stuff? Trying to decide whether this is an avenue worth going down for some seventh/eighth-gen stuff. In theory, I can see little reason why integer scaling would look worse than native outside of maybe screen-door effect, but that can be subjective.

I did it briefly using a capture card, and then I just switched to a smaller monitor after feeling the input lag. Emulation is of course the best option (if legality doesn't bother you), but that's only true for games that actually run well.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:25 pm 


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not exactly what you are asking, but: I've recently tested a bunch of older 1080p tvs. Only 2 out of 6 actually showed pixel perfect output at native resolution. All others had aliasing or blur. really disappointing for any kind of pixel art kind of game, but ok for 3d games. I don't think pixel perfect images are much of a priority in the tv industry.

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/sea ... v%20review


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:55 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
xeos wrote:
I've recently tested a bunch of older 1080p tvs. Only 2 out of 6 actually showed pixel perfect output at native resolution.


One of the reasons I never upgraded to a 1080p. Let me tell you trying to find a 720p TV back in the day that supported 1:1 pixel mapping was an absolute nightmare (still is).

I’ve found on some sets that you only get 1:1 output if you use a DVI minder (DO NOT use an HDMI one!) like this https://connectpro.com/product/dvi-edid/


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:21 pm 


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Joined: 20 Oct 2016
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Location: San Diego, California
strayan wrote:
xeos wrote:
I've recently tested a bunch of older 1080p tvs. Only 2 out of 6 actually showed pixel perfect output at native resolution.


One of the reasons I never upgraded to a 1080p. Let me tell you trying to find a 720p TV back in the day that supported 1:1 pixel mapping was an absolute nightmare (still is).

I’ve found on some sets that you only get 1:1 output if you use a DVI minder (DO NOT use an HDMI one!) like this https://connectpro.com/product/dvi-edid/


So you are saying that you can get the tv to do pixel perfect output by messing with the EDID sent to the console?


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:54 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
xeos wrote:
strayan wrote:
xeos wrote:
I've recently tested a bunch of older 1080p tvs. Only 2 out of 6 actually showed pixel perfect output at native resolution.


One of the reasons I never upgraded to a 1080p. Let me tell you trying to find a 720p TV back in the day that supported 1:1 pixel mapping was an absolute nightmare (still is).

I’ve found on some sets that you only get 1:1 output if you use a DVI minder (DO NOT use an HDMI one!) like this https://connectpro.com/product/dvi-edid/


So you are saying that you can get the tv to do pixel perfect output by messing with the EDID sent to the console?


Yes. I believe (never been able to 100% confirm) the problem is the CEA spec.

I speculate that old DVI minders weren’t made with CEA in mind but still pass through the signal, just without all the same ‘flags’, which would ordinarily tell the display it connected to a CEA compliant HDMI source. In my case when I use an HDMI minder with my NEC plasma I don’t get 1:1 mapping but if I switch it to an old DVI minder get perfect 1:1 mapping.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:02 am 


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Location: San Diego, California
strayan wrote:
xeos wrote:

So you are saying that you can get the tv to do pixel perfect output by messing with the EDID sent to the console?


Yes. I believe (never been able to 100% confirm) the problem is the CEA spec.

I speculate that old DVI minders weren’t made with CEA in mind but still pass through the signal, just without all the same ‘flags’, which would ordinarily tell the display it connected to a CEA compliant HDMI source. In my case when I use an HDMI minder with my NEC plasma I don’t get 1:1 mapping but if I switch it to an old DVI minder get perfect 1:1 mapping.


Hmm. That's interesting. I'm using a raspberry pi for my TV testing. I'd imagine it is identifying as both CEA and DMT compliant. But I still get overscan + alias errors on 720p and 1080p for many but not all tvs. I'm planning to test a HDMI->vga adapter to see if VGA gets treated pixel perfect though.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:00 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
In my experience you are far more likely to get perfect pixel mapping via the VGA port for 720p displays (1366/1365/1360x768]. For some reason many native 1080p displays limit the resolution on the VGA port to something like 1360x768 even though they take 1080p no issues over HDMI.

Unfortunately some sets still won’t display 1:1 no matter what you do.

The other thing I have found is that some sets will only display 1:1 when fed a reduced blanking timing.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:36 am 


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Location: San Diego, California
strayan wrote:
The other thing I have found is that some sets will only display 1:1 when fed a reduced blanking timing.


fascinating tip. I can try that with the pi, but afaik that's not an option for any console? maybe via the ossc?


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:51 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 519
xeos wrote:
strayan wrote:
ing.
fascinating tip. I can try that with the pi, but afaik that's not an option for any console? maybe via the ossc?


The Crestron HD scaler can output reduced blanking for some resolutions. It adds 1.5-2 frames of lag.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:03 am 


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Quote:
In my experience you are far more likely to get perfect pixel mapping via the VGA port for 720p displays (1366/1365/1360x768]. For some reason many native 1080p displays limit the resolution on the VGA port to something like 1360x768 even though they take 1080p no issues over HDMI.

indeed. My first LCD TV was a 32" Samsung set (in 2004) and while HDMI was limited to 720p and 1080i and of course didn't map 1:1 to its panel, its VGA input accepted 1360x768 with perfect 1:1 mapping. 3 pixel columns on both sides remained unused though.

I think the overall ability to display 1080p in a 1:1 fashion without rescaling was pretty much a given 10 years ago. It was a bit of a transition time when LCDs were still new or came in odd non-CEA resolutions, but I really don't recall ever testing a 1080p set that wasn't able to display a 1080p without perfect 1:1 mapping (or at least have the ability to enable that option).

Quote:
I'm using a raspberry pi for my TV testing. I'd imagine it is identifying as both CEA and DMT compliant. But I still get overscan + alias errors on 720p and 1080p for many but not all tvs.

The Pi boards can default to some really weird resolutions and add scaling by themselves. You have to make sure that under/overscan is really disabled through the boot/config.txt file. On my Sony main TV all the Pi units default to the right resolution, but always add underscan by themselves for some reason that's completely beyond me. Just don't blame the TV for that.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:34 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm using a raspberry pi for my TV testing. I'd imagine it is identifying as both CEA and DMT compliant. But I still get overscan + alias errors on 720p and 1080p for many but not all tvs.

The Pi boards can default to some really weird resolutions and add scaling by themselves. You have to make sure that under/overscan is really disabled through the boot/config.txt file. On my Sony main TV all the Pi units default to the right resolution, but always add underscan by themselves for some reason that's completely beyond me. Just don't blame the TV for that.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md


The official story, which I believe, is that the overscan doesn't change the video signal, just the size of the framebuffer (ie cropping), or depending on which drivers you have, how it's scaled before final rendering:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 7&t=280917

it would seem the "right" way is to always have "disable_overscan=0" because of this (and set each edge to zero, as well). It's pretty broken IMHO. In any case in all my testing overscan is off. note that the default behavior has changed now that fkms/kms is the only way to do video out on the pi4 so if what I wrote doesn't sound right to you, perhaps you are using an older pi.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:37 pm 


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Quote:
it would seem the "right" way is to always have "disable_overscan=0" because of this (and set each edge to zero, as well)

yes, but don't confuse overscan with underscan. These are two separate switches in the config file.

Quote:
note that the default behavior has changed now that fkms/kms is the only way to do video out on the pi4

don't know about that. I just know that I set up a fresh Pi4 only last week and again it defaulted to underscan on my Sony.


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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:44 pm 


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Location: San Diego, California
Fudoh wrote:
yes, but don't confuse overscan with underscan. These are two separate switches in the config file.


now, that I did not know. where's it documented? there's only one hit on the text "under" in the link you provided, and that's the license text.


Last edited by xeos on Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:12 pm 


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my bad, you're probably right. I always confuses me that they call it adding overscan, when it's actually used to COUNTER overscan.


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