Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/720p?

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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

I'm always disappointed more displays don't offer it as a selectable option.

my sony tv integer scales 960p to 4k. great for the OSSC:

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... t-lag.html

there's a bit of a border though.
dojima
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

The ability to integer scale in the graphics mode is one of the reasons I got the X900E, but after testing it, I actually found the image to be better when allowing it use the normal scaler with Reality Creation set to the right amount. I find that integer scaling indeed looks better up close, but probably due to psychovisual reasons, the normal scaler appears sharper at normal viewing distances. Probably also depends on screen size, though.
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

dojima wrote:The ability to integer scale in the graphics mode is one of the reasons I got the X900E, but after testing it, I actually found the image to be better when allowing it use the normal scaler with Reality Creation set to the right amount. I find that integer scaling indeed looks better up close, but probably due to psychovisual reasons, the normal scaler appears sharper at normal viewing distances. Probably also depends on screen size, though.
that would be interesting to see, wanna post side by side photos or know of a source? what resolution are you talking about?
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

Sure, I'll take some shots soon. I mostly use 1080p on it, but I never use the graphics picture mode with any signal.
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

God, imgur is the worst website on earth. Anyway... Each image is a 1080p source integer scaled with the graphics picture mode first, followed by the same source scaled using Sony's Reality Creation algorithm in the game picture mode. While the picture quality is arguably preferable up close in the graphics mode, hopefully the images convey the fact that the picture appears sharper at normal viewing distances with the normal scaler. The ringing of the Reality Creation scaling can be reduced as needed; these are just the settings I happen to prefer. Images were only cropped, resized, and colorspace converted.
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

looking at the images I'm surprised, thanks for going to the effort of uploading them.

so you are saying you like the image with ringing? I agree it would look sharper since it's got the high frequencies (aka edge) contrast boosted. I would think the problem is actually the opposite -even with integer pixel scaling it's too sharp compared to the intended CRT output which would add a noticeable (but mostly horizontal) blur factor. Did you spend a lot of time with emulators on LCD screens? How long since you last played with an actual CRT?
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

Yeah, I like the ringing on typical sources, but yeah, I agree. I don't actually like the pure output of emulators. Just used that for sake of illustration. I typically play with a combination of shaders and Blargg's NTSC filter.

This is what I typically use:
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

that looks much better but a little hard to compare....

my guess is you like the set of shader filters you have but wish it didn't blur quite so much so enabling the oversharpening (ringing) gives you the best balance.


If you were using an unfiltered input it seems unlikely the oversharpened option would be preferable.
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

Not exactly. I just use the Reality Creation setting for everything. It wasn't specifically chosen with emulator shaders in mind. I find it preferable on everything from movies to PS4 to Xbox 360. Like I indicated before, it might be partly due to the size of my TV. My X900E is only 49", so it's pretty hard to even tell the difference between 1440p and 4K, for example, unless you're uncomfortably close. Exaggerating the high frequency detail helps, and I don't really notice any oversharpening artifacts at a distance. I could easily imagine a situation, however, where my settings are ugly on a 65" or larger television.

I think even if I were playing without shaders, I'd still use Reality Creation, but I might turn it down a touch. The 'Auto' setting is quite subtle and may work well.

It's interesting, actually. I can't imagine any 1080p source on my TV looking anywhere near as blurry as the 'Game Mode 1080p' shot in the second post while simultaneously looking that much clearer with the Graphics mode. To get something like that on my set, you'd have to turn sharpness to 0 for the Game mode image (50 being the neutral setting). Anything 1080p or higher looks absolutely fantastic and would probably fool most for 4K without a side-by-side. 720p is where it gets iffy, but if the source is very clean without a lot of processing, it can still look great even at that resolution. Bayonetta for X360 over HDMI is an example that comes to mind where the image is really all you could ever ask for, even at 720p. The poster mentions it being a 65" model; maybe processing is done differently or the extra screen area really makes that massive of a difference.
strayan
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by strayan »

Some interesting details about EVE’s new 4K monitor https://eve.community/t/eve-4k144-spect ... tion/29258

Integer scaling and 60Hz strobing!!!
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by N64 »

Hey, thanks for the heads up. It took a while but I finally ended up finding another X900E
locally late last year, the 55" model, but being able to integer scale from 720p would be awesome. And just good to hear that there are more options out there and ones still being sold in stores today.
dojima wrote:The ability to integer scale in the graphics mode is one of the reasons I got the X900E, but after testing it, I actually found the image to be better when allowing it use the normal scaler with Reality Creation set to the right amount. I find that integer scaling indeed looks better up close, but probably due to psychovisual reasons, the normal scaler appears sharper at normal viewing distances. Probably also depends on screen size, though.

I do like the upscaling in Game mode when the output is native 1080p such as on Switch, PS4, Xbox 360, PC etc. I think the scaling works better with that content because it was probably designed with that stuff in mind. It actually does a great job of making 1080p games look pretty close to native 4K just by smoothing out the jagged edges, especially in text and 2D HUD elements where it's more noticeable.

However, my N64 is outputting 240p scaled up to 1080p through the UltraHDMI, and I have since added the RetroTINK 5X which is upscaling Wii, PS2, and OG Xbox from mostly 480p content to 1080p (960p with borders), and for those I don't think the upscaling algorithm in Game mode really improves the image since it's low res content inside a high res video source, I think maybe the algorithm isn't really designed for that type of content. It doesn't necessarily look bad, and wouldn't be a deal breaker if that was the best image I could get out of it, but I just love how good it looks (to me) integer scaled, from its native resolution.

There are nicer TVs out now but I still would have a hard time upgrading (luckily I don't own a PS5 or Xbox Series X yet), just because of how versatile this TV is in this kind of setup.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by Konsolkongen »

It would seem that Panasonic have started removing the option for 1080p integer scaling on their TVs :/ At least that's the case for their new JZ2000 OLED. HDTVtest did a review where he mentioned this. Would like to link to the video but it has been hit by a copyright strike on YouTube :)

Really a shame, they were the first I ever saw add this feature and it looked great :(
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

dojima wrote: Bayonetta for X360 over HDMI is an example that comes to mind where the image is really all you could ever ask for, even at 720p.
If I know my source material (I don't necessarily) it looks like all your posted examples are from 240p. how does it handle 480i?
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

Yeah, SMW is 240p rendered at 1080p, and the Shmups window was just the desktop at 1080p.

It's been a while since I've viewed anything 480i on the TV, but from what I recall, the image was about what you'd expect—soft and blurry. Not awful, but significantly worse than I remember things looking on my old CRTs. 480p was pretty acceptable depending on the game, but I hope to get some kind of a scaler before I get into playing 480i only stuff.

I am pretty curious to see whether or not the TV handles a digital signal better than component. Even in 480p, Wii looks absolutely god awful on the TV, but I'm hoping it'll look better once transcoded to HDMI. PS2/GC look just fine, oddly, but Wii probably looks worse in 480p than PS2/GC do in 480i.
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

I have the 43X800D, and it does a crap job on 480i. I think it's probably just as bad on 480p - the issue is that it's pixelated and somewhat aliased which is crazy dumb for a display with 2160 vertical pixels. Not to say it's worse than your typical 108p display, but I expected more from a high end display with pixels to spare.
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

Actually I should clarify: my 43X800D does a good job when fed 480i over HDMI, and a bad job when it arrives over the ypbpr plugs. Which suggests they just didn't bother to try optimizing at all for retro gamers. Best option by far is to use the OSSC + 960p mode on the TV, which looks about as close to flawless as you can ask of a Non CRT.
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by dojima »

Thanks for that info. That's exactly what I anticipated given how terrible the Wii looks even in 480p.
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xeos
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Re: Any 4K TVs on the market that can integer scale 1080p/72

Post by xeos »

Interestingly if you go back to the mid 2000s LCDs TVs did a much better job on 480i/p content. So it's not the pixel tech itself, just the lazy scaler/deinterlacing implementation.

eg

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... t-lag.html

and

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... t-lag.html
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