Datapath Vision E1S 480i capture

[Rikrok]

I recently got one of these capture cards, and for everything 240p I've thrown at it things are working great.

480i on the other hand- I get an image flash up, followed by no signal, this repeats for about a minute until Vision/VCS decides it's a 29.97 Hz signal. What I want is 60/59.94 Hz which I can then deinterlace as I like (and of course not take a minute to get there). Does anyone have any ideas?

I've tried Dreamcast, Playstation, PS2, PS3 and Wii, all the same. I'm using RGB scart CSYNC cables (the Wii uses component to a retrotink comp2rgb) through a gscartsw lite (though I've tried bypassing this too), finally to a SCART Cleaner (tried sync strip on and off) to adapt to DVI for the Datapath.

[Fudoh]

Can you try capturing native analogue component instead ? The E1S supports this and your systems (except for DC) can output it. 29.97Hz/full frames should be fine.

[Rikrok]

Can you try capturing native analogue component instead ? The E1S supports this and your systems (except for DC) can output it. 29.97Hz/full frames should be fine.

I've ordered a component to dvi adapter to test this out. It shouldn't have a problem with RGB though right? (I hope there's a solution but that that's not it as then I'd have to buy lots of new cables and make an otherwise perfect setup very messy).

I can live with full frames half Hz but the flashing image/no signal for up to a minute is nuts.

[DarkAries]

You can't feed TV level sync into the datapath, it needs TTL level. Normally a sync stripper would fix this but I have a feeling your stripper probably steps down the new signal back to TV level.

[Fudoh]

component should work around the TTL requirement though. I'm pretty sure that I tested this years ago already when I first bought an E1S.

[DarkAries]

YPbPr totally works and there are rumblings it might even be better for resolution switching, but it's fairly common to have a very strong green push that has to be corrected. Easily done via the colour balance settings but something to keep in mind.

[Rikrok]

Thanks Fudoh and DarkAries for you replies. My component to dvi arrived and it does fix the flashing image/no signal problem. The colors are a little different which I can correct.

My options now it would seem would be to either get a Retrotink RGB2Comp (converting the output from the gscartsw, as I don't want to buy component cables for all the relevant systems and switch out the setup I already have) or somehow convert the tv level sync to TTL, which may be the better option as it's one less conversion in the chain and avoids the colours being altered.

Which would you recommend, and if it's the TTL option how would I do that (bear in mind I'm no engineering/soldering expert!).

Thanks

[Fudoh]

for "consumer" sync levels to TTL you would run the signal through a sync stripper like the LM1881. This boosts the sync level to TTL.

Trancoding RGB to YUV is a losless conversion though, so I find this more elegant (and practicable).

[Rikrok]

That's strange then, the sync stripper I'm using has an LM1881
https://www.retrorgb.com/scartcleaner.html
Which would mean my problem isn't because I don't have a TTL level sync.

For me I wouldn't say using component is preferable as it means buying another piece of equipment and the colours are off with a slight green tint, but it looks like my only choice...

[DarkAries]

That's strange then, the sync stripper I'm using has an LM1881
https://www.retrorgb.com/scartcleaner.html
Which would mean my problem isn't because I don't have a TTL level sync.

For me I wouldn't say using component is preferable as it means buying another piece of equipment and the colours are off with a slight green tint, but it looks like my only choice...

Well hold up. If that is the device you are indeed using....are you using the correct DVI cable? The device doesn't convert analog to digital so you still need a DVI cable that has the analog pins on it.

[Rikrok]

Well hold up. If that is the device you are indeed using....are you using the correct DVI cable? The device doesn't convert analog to digital so you still need a DVI cable that has the analog pins on it.

Yes I certainly have the correct DVI cable (DVI24+5), otherwise I wouldn't see anything (480i flashes and 240p works fine)

[Fudoh]

Most sync strippers are build to be used with consumer levels on both sides, so your stripper might have an attenuated output, bringing the TTL level back down for use on regular monitors or TVs.

If this project is important to you and you don't mind another investment, going digital before feeding the signal into your capture card would solve all of those problems. For example by adding an OSSC as a capture inferface to take care of all the A/D conversions, no matter if your sources are RGBs, VGA or component.

[NormalFish]

Have you tried running it through OBS? Vision doesn't seem to handle deinterlacing very successfully IME. It'll sometimes just weirdly hitch or otherwise look wrong. OBS' deinterlacing options are fairly low lag and high quality.

[maxtherabbit]

TTL sync is the language of the gods

blame europe and SCART for this "75-ohm sync" even being a thing

[Rikrok]

@Fudoh I've raised a ticket with Insurrection Industries who make the SCART2DVI, hopefully they get back to me and clear things up.

I actually already have an OSSC, I just find it not ideal as it forces me to capture in higher resolutions than I want, and setting the timings is a lot more of a hassle than using VSC where I can make, save and load profiles for every console and have it switch profiles automatically. With the OSSC it only has 15 profile slots (a Sega Saturn alone will use half of them) and you need to either flash the card or keep multiple sd cards to hand to load a different 15. Other than that it does work well.

@NormalFish I've tried Vision, OBS and VCS, the issue with them all is the losing signal for interlaced input. Deinterlacing wise I'm happy with my setup now- capturing full fields at half Hz, I don't stream so I fine to process the video with Avisynth and QTGMC.

@maxtherabbit mmm, though thank Europe for SCART in the first place.

I've ordered a Retrotink RGB2COMP as for now it looks like my best solution, it still just bugs me I can't use RGB SCART.

[Fudoh]

I actually already have an OSSC, I just find it not ideal as it forces me to capture in higher resolutions than I want

out of curiosity, which codecs do you use?

If you record natively you have to record in a losless 4:4:4 codec, then resize on your PC into at least double the size and then re-encode into a storage codec. If you upscale beforehand you can directly encode into something like h264 without losing color resolution.

[maxtherabbit]

@maxtherabbit mmm, though thank Europe for SCART in the first place.

SCART is nothing to be thankful for

[Rikrok]

@Fudoh I'm not sure I follow. I'm recording with VSC and h264 at 240p, for some reason its capture looks considerably better than it does in Vision or OBS. OBS can look as good if I use window capture but then I don't get every frame (I still use it to record the audio). When I use the OSSC if I remember correctly 240p didn't work over hdmi, I had to scale up.

@maxtherabbit I'd disagree with you there. It may not be the best conceived thing but thanks to it most crt tvs in Europe are RGB capable out of the box (and a half decent one supports 60 Hz). In the US if someone isn't using a pvm they have to choose from a very small selection of crts with component, make do with s-vhs or go to ridiculous lengths to mod tvs to accept RGB. (I'm from the UK but am living in the US, there was no way I wasn't bringing my beautiful Bang & Olufsen crt with me.)

[Fudoh]

@Fudoh I'm not sure I follow. I'm recording with VSC and h264 at 240p

If you record (for example) an ED source (480p) in h264 at most regular settings, you get half resolution on the 1st color channel and quartered resolution on the second color channel. Luma will be 720x480px, while blue color channel will only have 360x480px resolution and the red will only have 360x240px. You're effectively losing detail a lot of detail. Even if you upscale afterwards, this detail will remain lost.

If you upscale first, for example to 1440x960p and then record in h264 your blue color channel will still have a resolution of 720x960px and your red color channel will retain a resolution of 720x480px, enough to keep all source detail intact.

[Extrems]

They're both quartered. Otherwise would cause chromatic aberrations.

[Rikrok]

I'm recording at 4:4:4

[Fudoh]

thanks, of course. Started out writing about 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 and got distracted. Point being: capturing at native resolution in a codec with chroma sub-sampling isn't a great idea to start with.

[Rikrok]

thanks, of course. Started out writing about 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 and got distracted. Point being: capturing at native resolution in a codec with chroma sub-sampling isn't a great idea to start with.

For sure. Currently with remote work I occasionally see coloured text on a similar luma background and it looks horrid!