RGB Decoders & Encoders (non-scaling) that support 240p

[Fudoh]

what's your impression compared to a direct composite connection to the monitor?

[Lawfer]

Can any of these devices downscale 480i and/or 480p to 240p?

[kitty666cats]

what's your impression compared to a direct composite connection to the monitor?

"Somewhere between composite and RGB" would best describe it, heh. Definitely more crisp than straight composite. I'm kicking myself for mailing my friend my only S-Video console cable mere days before getting this unit! I did try composite -> svid through a DVR, however, and found the difference to be extremely marginal.

Strangely, it gave me very blue/teal tones for the selection bar on the home screen on my PSIO, which normally appears as a neon green when connected via straight RGB. This color deformation isn't really noticeable in actual gameplay, however...

[kitty666cats]

Can any of these devices downscale 480i and/or 480p to 240p?

No scaling at all on the Kramer, nope. Fudoh's covered most every device that can downscale stuff to 240p on his website, save for a few other devices such as the DIDO JR, GBS Control, and possibly several other obscure processors out there.

[kitty666cats]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DWIN-Model-VDC ... 3638990294#

This auction is about to end, thinking of taking the plunge... there's zero info available online, anyone heard of this one? The fact that it's RGBS out leads me to believe it probably doesn't scale the image, but ehhh, IDK. Dunno if it will 'outshine' the Kramer. I HAVE heard DWIN made some good stuff, but haven't heard too much about 'em overall

[kitty666cats]

JUST KIDDING, I ended up buying this one on a whim, lol. Sent a $24 offer and they went for it!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CYP-Multi-Stan ... 3988304593

Spoiler

Could find absolute zilch for information/manuals online, pretty excited to try 'er out!

[kitty666cats]

JUST KIDDING, I ended up buying this one on a whim, lol. Sent a $24 offer and they went for it!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CYP-Multi-Stan ... 3988304593

Spoiler

Could find absolute zilch for information/manuals online, pretty excited to try 'er out!

Can confirm that this decoder properly processes 240p Also provides more 'faithful' colors than the Kramer VM-19N (which I have listed on my eBay currently)

[strayan]

Oh I see it now, this thread is about sharing one's personal struggle against the crave for random old hardware with lots of buttons on it.

The Fudohmeister has much to answer for

⇩ ⇩ ⇩

https://imgur.com/tzP6NuC

[kitty666cats]

I'm selling my Kramer VM-19N, and happened to notice there's someone else on eBay selling one - they also have a Kramer FC-19, and the two units look to be EXACTLY the same. I wonder if there's much/ANY difference goin' on under the hood, and also wonder which is the older unit? My gut is telling me that the FC-19 is probably older... I would assume it is ALSO 240p-friendly (especially if it's the older of the two) since they are so near-identical.

Still tempted to take the plunge on that TrueVision Madras thingy! Looks quite interesting

[kitty666cats]

A heads up to ldeveraux or anyone else who may be interested in that Madras device - a kind and thoughtful user here PM’d me and told me they used to own one & to avoid the thing... ‘tis apparently an absolute headache to get it to sync/work properly for any sort of casual use that most of us would try to implement it for. Bullet dodged!

[ldeveraux]

A heads up to ldeveraux or anyone else who may be interested in that Madras device - a kind and thoughtful user here PM’d me and told me they used to own one & to avoid the thing... ‘tis apparently an absolute headache to get it to sync/work properly for any sort of casual use that most of us would try to implement it for. Bullet dodged!

You forgot the @ symbol! Yeah I don't think I was going to buy it anyway unfortunately...

[kitty666cats]

A heads up to ldeveraux or anyone else who may be interested in that Madras device - a kind and thoughtful user here PM’d me and told me they used to own one & to avoid the thing... ‘tis apparently an absolute headache to get it to sync/work properly for any sort of casual use that most of us would try to implement it for. Bullet dodged!

You forgot the @ symbol! Yeah I don't think I was going to buy it anyway unfortunately...

Oh, does doing that actually send us notifications? Interesting! If you do end up interested in a decoder, I have a Kramer VM-19N that I could literally deliver to your stoop if you still live 2 towns away from me

[kitty666cats]

Randomly saw one of these on eBay - anyone ever seen/owned one? ITU-R BT .656 being listed makes me think 240p may be plausible, but “totally digitally designed architecture” makes me second guess it. Those Key Digital KD-VP6 and VP8 units, they have an option for line doubling all inputs to 480p... meanwhile, this supports even higher resolutions yet does NOT do any scaling of its own. Interesting lookin’ fellas!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202893376986
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224311623150

Two units available on eBay at the moment - could be a fun experiment trying one out RE: 240p support. Even if not, could still be fine for chaining before a OSSC, GBSC, etc

[kitty666cats]

Also, one more interesting experiment I decided to share with you folks. NoAffinity recently helped me make some repairs to that CYP CMT-7 decoder I own (there is a switch on the back for switching between RGB and YUV output).

Spoiler

^ This is a screenshot via the CYP Decoder, NES composite to RGBS into the 15kHz daughterboard on my multiformat Sampo monitor

Spoiler

^ THIS is the same decoder, set to YUV out instead. It was then fed into a YPbPr to RGB transcoder and THEN into my monitor. The change in the colorspace is quite interesting, more saturated... reminiscent of the RGB palette from the PlayChoice 10 PPU! Unsure if perhaps the transcoder only outputs Rec. 709 and not 601...? Beats me It is a Key Digital KD-CTCA2

[kitty666cats]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174577757427

Another curious one, Inline (brand absorbed my Extron). OLDDD so prob does 240p

[strayan]

Shinybow SB-3682, RGBHV (via RCA) to YC/CV, BNIB sealed, never worked - reflowed most every single solder joint

I just picked up one of these and it works a treat. Here is the picture hooked up to a GBS-C:

https://imgur.com/a/TNova7Q

[Dochartaigh]

Shinybow SB-3682, RGBHV (via RCA) to YC/CV, BNIB sealed, never worked - reflowed most every single solder joint

I just picked up one of these and it works a treat. Here is the picture hooked up to a GBS-C:

https://imgur.com/a/TNova7Q

Any tricks? I don't even know if I still have mine or I trashed it - mine was definitely defective which sucks because it was BNIB and hard to find.

[Fudoh]

has anybody tried Mike Chi's VGA2NTSC design?

I think boards should eventually be available through Retroupgrades in the UK. Maybe they're available somewhere in the US as well?

[strayan]

Shinybow SB-3682, RGBHV (via RCA) to YC/CV, BNIB sealed, never worked - reflowed most every single solder joint

I just picked up one of these and it works a treat. Here is the picture hooked up to a GBS-C:

https://imgur.com/a/TNova7Q

Any tricks? I don't even know if I still have mine or I trashed it - mine was definitely defective which sucks because it was BNIB and hard to find.

I had to swap the H and V plugs but otherwise it ‘just works’.

[nolepe]

Still tempted to take the plunge on that TrueVision Madras thingy! Looks quite interesting

manual of this unit says about 525/625 only

[Zebidee]

Hi, here is another one for your list:

GreenAntz RGB/VGA to YPbPr transcoder:



It does not include any digital processing or scaling, which makes it very fast and ideal for gaming. Converts the colour space using the same BA7230LS chip that some others use, but GreenAntz has some important advantages.

GreenAntz accepts both RGBHV and RGBs inputs - it generates its own composite sync from separate H&V inputs, but it can also accept composite sync input from source.

In addition to generating own csync, GreenAntz sync integration with luma (Y) has tighter sync-tip filtering and clamping than other products based on the same chip. That means that there is minimal loss of luma signal amplitude. Yes, that means I'm saying the image is brighter, clearer and has stronger colours than other comparable transcoders. Which is what they all say, but in this case it is true!

A short video:
https://youtu.be/LIr9Z-DxRgE

They come with colour balance and luma settings already calibrated and optimised, but there are pots available as well.

More info is available here:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 249.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 245.0.html

This is a hobbyist-driven project so please support! PM me if interested.

A SCART version will also be available soon.

[kitty666cats]

Not exactly the type of device I meant to start the thread about, BUT always happy to see new transcoders! I had seen that this one was in the works, congrats on completion!

[maxtherabbit]

Looks like a nice design

[Zebidee]

Not exactly the type of device I meant to start the thread about, BUT always happy to see new transcoders!

You're right, GreenAntz is a bit different to other boxes, designed by gamers for gamers. Yet it does exactly what you asked for (RGB-YPbPr trancoding, no scaling, for 240p) so I had to mention it. GreenAntz is designed specifically for 15khz SDTV (not HDTV) resolutions up to 576i/480i, and it does that very efficiently with no digital processing overheads.

This specialisation gives GreenAntz speed and other gaming advantages over devices, especially those that do digital processing (lag and "artifacts").

I had seen that this one was in the works, congrats on completion!

Yes GreenAntz project started over three years ago, though much development has happened during the past year of COVID (it has been a "lockdown" project). You can find a bit of history over at the Aussie Arcade forums Aussie Arcade forums. Since then, I've been collaborating directly with "DekDek" from the AA forums, so when I say "we" that is what I mean.

Looks like a nice design

Thank you - We have put a lot of effort into making the design as flexible as possible, yet also neat and attractive. The PCB is great for modding with and, with a little knowledge, it is easy to adapt for alternative applications such as JAMMA input (put a component TV into an arcade cab!). Handy features include easy access to alternative power (so you can hook it up to DC power supply in a cab, console or PC) and RGBHV inputs and sync options give it a lot of flexibility. With small size (smaller than a pack of cigarettes) accessible inputs/outputs and PCB feet (screw it down!) GreenAntz is very well suited to use with an arcade cab or inside a gaming rig.

There is some cool art on the PCB too. I created the ant silhouettes myself, but the GreenAntz logo design was outsourced to my oldest daughter who has some skills (yes I PAID her!).

While GreenAntz has matured as a project (producing/selling/getting them out there), we are still doing ongoing development and refinement. I'm refining the SCART version as I write. The next development phase will see us putting it into smaller SMD-based packages and hopefully a nice box.

Price: GreenAntz has always aimed at a US$50 price target, a fair price for what it does. However, until we get around to putting GreenAntz on a real marketplace they will be available to forum members at a small discount ($45) to encourage people to buy, try, test, talk. This is "for a limited time only", until we put up a listing on ebay or wherever.

Thanks for your interest!

[kitty666cats]

Terminology is vague but yeah, I use the term “encoders/decoders” specifically for devices that convert composite and Svid to component/RGB (Decoders) and Encoders for devices that do the opposite... totally niche devices, and not exactly ideal for videogames either, heh! With the exception of Commodore 64 (prior to the new Component mod) and PC-FX S-Video to RGB decoders actually look pretty awesome with C64

[Zebidee]

Terminology is vague but yeah, I use the term “encoders/decoders” specifically for devices that convert composite and Svid to component/RGB (Decoders) and Encoders for devices that do the opposite... totally niche devices, and not exactly ideal for videogames either, heh! With the exception of Commodore 64 (prior to the new Component mod) and PC-FX S-Video to RGB decoders actually look pretty awesome with C64

Thanks for that description, it makes sense. In that same context, a "transcoder" like GreenAntz is transferring from roughly equivalent RGB to YPbPr colour spaces (like "trans"lating a language) rather than making reforming it as NTSC/PAL/Composite/svideo etc. The terms have been flying around thick and fast.

Everyone gets fixated on RGB but component input TVs can look 95%+ as good as RGB. And even though sVideo has substantially reduced colour space "bandwidth" (C = Pb+Pr), it is miles ahead of composite. So yeah, GreenAntz is about bridging the connectivity gap, and making a whole lot more old SDTVs easily available to gamers and others (out of landfill too, but yeah mainly for gamers).

Somebody sent me a PM after the earlier message, but my reply just sits in the outbox. I suspect I need to post a minimum number of times before I can PM people? So you know, I'm not ignoring you. Guess I'd better spam out a few more posts (just kidding... just).

[kitty666cats]

Terminology is vague but yeah, I use the term “encoders/decoders” specifically for devices that convert composite and Svid to component/RGB (Decoders) and Encoders for devices that do the opposite... totally niche devices, and not exactly ideal for videogames either, heh! With the exception of Commodore 64 (prior to the new Component mod) and PC-FX S-Video to RGB decoders actually look pretty awesome with C64

Thanks for that description, it makes sense. In that same context, a "transcoder" like GreenAntz is transferring from roughly equivalent RGB to YPbPr colour spaces (like "trans"lating a language) rather than making reforming it as NTSC/PAL/Composite/svideo etc. The terms have been flying around thick and fast.

Everyone gets fixated on RGB but component input TVs can look 95%+ as good as RGB. And even though sVideo has substantially reduced colour space "bandwidth" (C = Pb+Pr), it is miles ahead of composite. So yeah, GreenAntz is about bridging the connectivity gap, and making a whole lot more old SDTVs easily available to gamers and others (out of landfill too, but yeah mainly for gamers).

Somebody sent me a PM after the earlier message, but my reply just sits in the outbox. I suspect I need to post a minimum number of times before I can PM people? So you know, I'm not ignoring you. Guess I'd better spam out a few more posts (just kidding... just).

Loved my Kramer FC-14 on my old component consumer CRT

Gotta take a closer look at yours! I was looking at this link just now and it made me think of your post -

http://extralife.xyz/articles/rgb-ypbpr/page.html

Cool idea, would be very interesting seeing more passive transcoders/ones that can solely be powered by 5v over VGA pin 9 or via SCART someday

Are you making enclosures? I would gladly provide some cute little art for any enclosures you may have planned - perhaps something you could silk screen on / 3D print, heh. Crazy enclosures and art on transcoders/gaming converters is another thing I hope to see more of in the future!

[Zebidee]

Loved my Kramer FC-14 on my old component consumer CRT

Gotta take a closer look at yours! I was looking at this link just now and it made me think of your post -

http://extralife.xyz/articles/rgb-ypbpr/page.html

Thanks for that link. They did a decent job - reminds me of where GreenAntz was at a couple of years ago. I'd probably do a few things differently Colours look a bit "washed out", like it has been through the washer too many times. YPbPr output requires better amplification, balancing and impedance matching. I would do the csync generation and integration with luma differently (this can also affect colour definition), but hey it works and is impressive. What I like most is the compact design, is almost small enough to call a dongle (but I still wouldn't hang it off my VGA port). The BA6592F seems a good choice for full SMD and will have to look at that more.

Cool idea, would be very interesting seeing more passive transcoders/ones that can solely be powered by 5v over VGA pin 9 or via SCART someday

Too many issues unfortunately. Not all VGA cards do 5v on pin 9. Not all SCART cables are the same, and different devices output voltages over SCART differently.

I'm not sure what rating the 5v via VGA9 is (sources are vague), but it may be as low as 100mA. By comparison USB 2.0 is 500mA. GreenAntz uses about 80-90mA, not much but bit close for comfort. All your grounds are shared with video grounds too, so consider your power return path. We considered going USB for power better practice. To ultimately accommodate all options, GreenAntz has "landing pads" to connect alternative 5v+GND sources such as PC molex, console or other regulated DC power supply or power brick. You can even use a phone charger battery pack.

Are you making enclosures? I would gladly provide some cute little art for any enclosures you may have planned - perhaps something you could silk screen on / 3D print, heh. Crazy enclosures and art on transcoders/gaming converters is another thing I hope to see more of in the future!

Yeah we totally need an optional box of some sort. Have given it a lot of thought, but now already thinking towards smaller SMD version. Which means another box size to consider! Thanks for the art offer and may take you up on it later - for now daughter #1 needs paid work and I'm happy to give it to her

[kitty666cats]

Loved my Kramer FC-14 on my old component consumer CRT

Gotta take a closer look at yours! I was looking at this link just now and it made me think of your post -

http://extralife.xyz/articles/rgb-ypbpr/page.html

Thanks for that link. They did a decent job - reminds me of where GreenAntz was at a couple of years ago. I'd probably do a few things differently Colours look a bit "washed out", like it has been through the washer too many times. YPbPr output requires better amplification, balancing and impedance matching. I would do the csync generation and integration with luma differently (this can also affect colour definition), but hey it works and is impressive. What I like most is the compact design, is almost small enough to call a dongle (but I still wouldn't hang it off my VGA port). The BA6592F seems a good choice for full SMD and will have to look at that more.

Cool idea, would be very interesting seeing more passive transcoders/ones that can solely be powered by 5v over VGA pin 9 or via SCART someday

Too many issues unfortunately. Not all VGA cards do 5v on pin 9. Not all SCART cables are the same, and different devices output voltages over SCART differently.

I'm not sure what rating the 5v via VGA9 is (sources are vague), but it may be as low as 100mA. By comparison USB 2.0 is 500mA. GreenAntz uses about 80-90mA, not much but bit close for comfort. All your grounds are shared with video grounds too, so consider your power return path. We considered going USB for power better practice. To ultimately accommodate all options, GreenAntz has "landing pads" to connect alternative 5v+GND sources such as PC molex, console or other regulated DC power supply or power brick. You can even use a phone charger battery pack.

Are you making enclosures? I would gladly provide some cute little art for any enclosures you may have planned - perhaps something you could silk screen on / 3D print, heh. Crazy enclosures and art on transcoders/gaming converters is another thing I hope to see more of in the future!

Yeah we totally need an optional box of some sort. Have given it a lot of thought, but now already thinking towards smaller SMD version. Which means another box size to consider! Thanks for the art offer and may take you up on it later - for now daughter #1 needs paid work and I'm happy to give it to her

I could do some sort of black and white drawing for free, even... heh. Lemme know if you ever make enclosures / hope to see the GreenAntz succeed

[Zebidee]

I could do some sort of black and white drawing for free, even... heh. Lemme know if you ever make enclosures / hope to see the GreenAntz succeed

Thank you muchly for your kind offer I'd be very happy to share with my Artistic Director #1, see what she thinks, maybe has something to contribute back. Sharing ideas is always a good idea.