DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

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HDgaming42
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DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by HDgaming42 »

It seems I purchased yet another DVDO machine that doesn't do what I thought it did. Before jettisoning it back into Kijiji I'd like to know if there's anything it excels at from a gaming perspective.

It's a VP30 without the ABT-102, so deinterlacing isn't great. Seems it can't output 480i, either digital or analog. It can't downscale to 240p without jacking the refresh up to 120Hz, which would be fine if I wanted to game on a CRT computer monitor I suppose.

Am I missing something? I have the first model of OSSC (DVI) and it's served me well. I bought an extron 301 HD to let the OSSC play nicer with my TV, but of course that arrived DOA.

The TVOne units seem to fit the bill, but the prices are climbing out of my comfort zone with the OSSC Pro on the horizon.

Are the DVDO machines useful for gamers with options like the Extron 301HD, certain TVOne models, the OSSC and GBS 8200/8220 available? I guess the VP30 makes a nice pattern generator for 480p upward, with access to patterns directly from the remote. I'll update the OP with any user contributions.

As of 2020, the great year of the apocalypse:

Useful

iScan VP50 Pro (240p downscaling)
iScan VP30 with ABT-102 (deinterlacing with low lag, can do 240p120)
iScan HD+ (240p downscaling)
iScan HD (240p downscaling)

Less useful (or simply surpassed by better options)

iScan Duo
iScan Edge
iScan VP50 (can't do 240p downscaling)
iScan VP30 with or without ABT-102 (can't do 240p downscaling, but has handy pattern generator. Can do 240p120)
iScan VP20 (can't do 240p downscaling)
iScan Pro
iScan
strayan
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by strayan »

What evidence do you have that the vp50pro does 240p downscaling?

I use a DVDO VP30 on one of my TVs to downscale 720p to 852x480 (and do a bunch of other things that aren’t gaming related).
Last edited by strayan on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

I still use DVDOs, but I bought in a long time ago, and I'm too cheap (so far) to buy an OSSC. Pro might push me over the edge. Neither DVDO (Duo, 50pro) I have in set-ups are really used for vintage gaming though. The best one for that purpose (30 w/ card) is the one collecting dust atm. Honestly not sure if I need/want anything for that specific use case. I've got a lot of CRTs. I'd never consider selling my Duo though, way too useful.

If anything DVDOs are good HDMI switches with fine tuning control options, if the price is right (haven't looked in ages).

The answer of would I recommend a DVDO to anyone with a vintage gaming focus looking to get started on a better AV experience is absolutely not. The OSSC (soon to be pro) and Retrotink are my go to recommendations. They are reasonably costed and readily available.

As an aside since I saw the brand name in here, TVOne is a pretty shitty brand. If you can find something else to do the same job I'd go for that, unless it's much more money. Even then I'd consider it tbh. My experiences with their gear have been negative and a friend of mine that has worked in av tech his whole life said they are complete trash (it was a longer chat than that, I'm just boiling it down).
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

The VP30 without ABT will accept linex3 and linex5 from the OSSC and normalise the signal to fix display compatibility. (Oops. Maybe not linex5. I may be wrong.)

It has color space handling, gamma correction, and manipulates aspect ratio.

My DVDOs also prevent SNES jitter dropouts with my beamers. DVDOs also help sync up some problematic PCBs.

Not to mention, as an add on machine, it gets the work done with half a frame of latency. That's amazing performance.

Also, is the deinterlacing really that bad? I bet it outperforms a brand new Extron machine.

Plenty of good use cases for a DVDO.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

Also, AFAIK, the Corio2 is the only machine that will get you 720p to 240p downscaling, if you're willing to battle the menu system to get it dialed in.

I think OP mentioned that in another thread.

Prices will eventually come back down. Just wait.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Namingway_PL »

I recently sold my dvdo vp30 with the ABT 102.

In my opinion dvdo machines are a bit obsolete at the moment. The VP30 is not so great for 480i to 480p. My old sharp LCD does a better job at this than the VP30. Input lag through the VP30 on my LCD was unacceptable.

Some units can still be useful in certain scenarios like the HD/HD+ for 240p, and the VP50 pro for upscaling 480p, but there are many alternatives for DVDO machines right now.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Fudoh »

Also, AFAIK, the Corio2 is the only machine that will get you 720p to 240p downscaling
The iScan HD+ accepts 720p through DVI-D and is able to output 240p as well.

Clearly all DVDO machines were engineered for home theater usage. All video game related use cases were mere side effects.

ABT102 equipped machines (as all the VP50 and newer) still offer stellar deinterlacing performance. TVs still have a very time to match that and the available options are unmatched anyway. I know quite a few users who massively prefer the DVDO's 480i handling to that of the Framemeister (although the FM technically does preserve more detail for video content). There's so little video processing tech that can really amaze me these days, but seeing ABT's deinterlacing work its magic on raw 480i video content is one of it.

DVDO's upscaling is matched to their deinterlacing. For upscaling genuine 480p sources, there are better solutions (Extron). For 720p sources (where the quality hit due to the internal 4:2:2 processings decreases compared to 480p sources), the DVDOs also do a great job. Especially with the 50Pro (where you get the revamped edge/detail enhancement controls at the same time as low lag processing of progressive sources), you can dial in brilliant results from systems like a XBox360.

In general it's hard to recommend one solution over another. For deinterlacing both the later DVDOs and the FM are fantastic. Very hard to compare though and very different in terms of handling. Same for upscaling. On a benchmark the Extron's scaling engine will leave the DVDOs in the dust, but in real life performance, there are many advantages to the subtle controls available on a machine like the 50Pro. If you can afford it and have the patience to do so, I'd always recommend to get all candidates and decide for yourself.

The OSSC Pro will have a hard time to follow in the footsteps of the giants preceeding it.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by strayan »

Fudoh wrote:
Also, AFAIK, the Corio2 is the only machine that will get you 720p to 240p downscaling
The iScan HD+ accepts 720p through DVI-D and is able to output 240p as well.
The ability to process 720p and 1080i on the DVI input is the only difference between the HD and HD+ right?
Fudoh wrote:If you can afford it and have the patience to do so, I'd always recommend to get all candidates and decide for yourself.
Absolutely true. I started with the Crestron HD Scaler -> Extron DSC HD HD -> Extron DSC 301 HD -> VP30 -> VP50Pro and am currently experimenting with the Lumagen Radiance XD. Unfortunately there is still no single device that meets all my needs so I have to keep all of them! The DVDO handling of 480i is excellent, it almost looks like a progressive signal, I honestly don't think I could tell them apart, but I have very little 480i source material anymore.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Fudoh wrote:Clearly all DVDO machines were engineered for home theater usage. All video game related use cases were mere side effects.

ABT102 equipped machines (as all the VP50 and newer) still offer stellar deinterlacing performance. TVs still have a very time to match that and the available options are unmatched anyway. I know quite a few users who massively prefer the DVDO's 480i handling to that of the Framemeister (although the FM technically does preserve more detail for video content). There's so little video processing tech that can really amaze me these days, but seeing ABT's deinterlacing work its magic on raw 480i video content is one of it.
Yep. For someone with a lot of old video formats lying around like myself, they are quite great.
Fudoh wrote:but in real life performance, there are many advantages to the subtle controls available on a machine like the 50Pro. If you can afford it and have the patience to do so, I'd always recommend to get all candidates and decide for yourself.
The fine tuning controls are so nice to have.

I think the last part is great advice for people on here, but it's a very small subset of people. When I talk about recommending the OSSC and Retrotink I am referring to more casual users that just want things to look better without too much fuss. OSSC requires some work, but everyone I've recommended it to that bought it was able to get it working well to their satisfaction.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by HDgaming42 »

Some great responses--thanks! I'll tally up the info provided in the OP this weekend. Might ask for further details.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Fudoh »

The ability to process 720p and 1080i on the DVI input is the only difference between the HD and HD+ right?
this, and support for HDCP-encrypted sources.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by BuckoA51 »

For PSP the DVDO Edge or Duo really shines, when coupled with an OSSC.

Do 480p x 2 into the DVDO then zoom it from there to fill your monitor. Turn on the scanlines to make sure the scaling isn't going too far off kilter, if the scanlines still look even that's good enough for me.

I also use mine for converting the consolised GBA to a VGA monitor, 720p to 1024x768, the DVDOs give you great zooming/AR correction tools so it's really useful here.

It's a pity about the bug in the Duo and Edge that causes added input lag on some off-spec refresh rates. The 50 Pro doesn't have this, but isn't as compatible with weird screen modes as the Edge/Duo.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

BuckoA51 wrote:For PSP the DVDO Edge or Duo really shines, when coupled with an OSSC.

Do 480p x 2 into the DVDO then zoom it from there to fill your monitor. Turn on the scanlines to make sure the scaling isn't going too far off kilter, if the scanlines still look even that's good enough for me.

I also use mine for converting the consolised GBA to a VGA monitor, 720p to 1024x768, the DVDOs give you great zooming/AR correction tools so it's really useful here.

It's a pity about the bug in the Duo and Edge that causes added input lag on some off-spec refresh rates. The 50 Pro doesn't have this, but isn't as compatible with weird screen modes as the Edge/Duo.
That reminds me.

Did you ever get around to checking out 960p with an NTSC N64 or a PCEngine/TG16?

I had trouble reproducing the bug and promptly forgot about it. :(
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Xer Xian »

orange808 wrote:That reminds me.

Did you ever get around to checking out 960p with an NTSC N64 or a PCEngine/TG16?

I had trouble reproducing the bug and promptly forgot about it. :(
I tried feeding 4x and 5x240p from a modded PS1+OSSC to the DVDO Edge a while ago, and it didn't make a difference (if we trust the audio delay slider).

It only makes sense that the latency 'bug' is affected by the temporal rather than the spatial resolution of the input.

Personally, I can bear with one more frame of lag for a subset of systems. The support of Line2x480p without fuss makes up for it in my case. I wish it had retained GameMode 2 though. That's a major omission.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

Xer Xian wrote:
orange808 wrote:That reminds me.

Did you ever get around to checking out 960p with an NTSC N64 or a PCEngine/TG16?

I had trouble reproducing the bug and promptly forgot about it. :(
I tried feeding 4x and 5x240p from a modded PS1+OSSC to the DVDO Edge a while ago, and it didn't make a difference (if we trust the audio delay slider).

It only makes sense that the latency 'bug' is affected by the temporal rather than the spatial resolution of the input.

Personally, I can bear with one more frame of lag for a subset of systems. The support of Line2x480p without fuss makes up for it in my case. I wish it had retained GameMode 2 though. That's a major omission.
Interesting. I'll try to revisit it tonight.

I'm on the release Duo firmware because I managed to find a sealed NOS machine. I would update, but I can't find any older firmwares to rollback.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

Okay. I remember why I went to the camera method. The slider has no limits on this firmware with any signal.

I'll set the camera again later and recheck.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by orange808 »

Sorry for so many posts, I'm also feeling a little burned on my purchase. The unit itself certainly looks new. But, there should have been a disk in the box. If I had it, I would already have a copy of the firmware I need. :(

Anybody got the Duo disk?
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by NoAffinity »

So I dusted off the ol vp30 yesterday, after reading this thread. I tried feeding cps2 digi av (hdmi) through it, and it does pretty well with it. It is nice being able to over scan and get perfect screen fitment. Mind you, this was 240p via hdmi into the vp30, no less, and it scaled it quite honorably.

The major downside, at least on my vp30, is noticeable ringing. It is noticeable on all inputs and various configurations of many of the options. Anybody know a remedy to this?

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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by BuckoA51 »

It's just a dated scaling engine there's really no getting away from that. Go in at the highest resolution possible to avoid it as much as possible.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by Greg2600 »

I had a VP50 for years on my HDTV, and it worked well for me. Took RGBS SCART, composite, RGBHV Dreamcast, etc. The lone issue was that it's HDMI processing was terrible, and it could not handle any of my micro consoles (i.e. NES Classic). I had no intention of replacing it, but it broken down several months ago. I'll wait for the OSSC Pro at this point, though they doesn't seem imminent. :x
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by tongshadow »

I game mostly on a PC CRT, and, in my opinion, the VP30+ABT102 introduces too much ringing artifacts when scaling anything from 480p and below. Not even outputting 480p/640x480 solves this issue, which is odd. 240p handling is just wrong, a far cry from what a proper linedoubler does.

Even if it's more expensive, the OSSC is a better option for SDTV and EDTV signals.

Now, I heard about DVDO+OSSC combos but I havent tried myself. The idea seems to be that because the DVDO's scale 720p and up better (Linetripled 720p coming from the OSSC), and can also properly deinterlace 480i (just set the OSSC to passthrough), you have a very versatile, albeit extremely convoluted, machine to handle all sources while also having a very nice hub for other consoles. And as a nice bonus, the DVDO will make the OSSC's 4x/5x modes more compatible since it doesnt mind weird/out of spec signals.

I'm more than happy with simple linedoubling/480p from the XRGB-3 and a PC CRT though!
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by RocketBelt »

I wouldn't choose one to scale low colour pixel graphics, they are not very good at that. Not surprising really as they were built to deinterlace and scale video and film. So it's not that great for a megadrive or snes etc.

They do deinterlace and scale high colour 3d type material very well though. So for a PS2 it works very well.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by ShmupJunkie »

The OSSC is hard to beat and my go-to, but I still keep my old DVDO VP50 in my system for anything that needs de-interlacing as i can't stand the BOB mode on the OSSC. Hurts my eyes and the flicker is too obvious. It's the one and only thing I don't use the OSSC for. So in those cases the VP50 does a nice job of it. The other big reason I like the VP50 is it only adds about 6ms of delay when set in the correct mode which is much better than something like a
framemeister. I also use it for sending all my game output to my PC for recording in OBS studio. The OSSC can be tough to sync up with it's non-standard resolutions and refresh rate. The DVDO takes the input from the OSSC and sends my card a perfect 1080P 60hz rock solid signal, so I have zero issues recording any of my classic consoles for my channel. It's been more useful for that than anything else.
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Re: DVDO machines for gaming in 2020. Madness? Or genius?

Post by NoAffinity »

I gave the ol vp30 a try with output from a modded gbs-8200 (gbs control). I'm not a fan of the cheapy VGA-to-hdmi adapters that are being used by those of us following and participating in the gbs control project. My main gripe is their output of only limited color range. They also seem to soften the clarity ever so slightly.

Well, the vp30 does nicely with the 720p output from modded gbs. I scaled it to to 1080p, adjusted ratios to get various arcade PCB's to a nice 4:3 (I have absolutely no problem with the appearance of pillar boxing as long as it's nice clean blackness :) ). And full color range. A slight bit of ringing is present, but the improvement in color and clarity trumps the slight ringing.

The vp30 does support only the 720p output from the gbs tho. It will not scale or pass thru any of the other output options including gbs pass through of 240p.

In terms of lag across the two devices, it is unnoticeable. A game I play across many platforms and can easily adjust to lag differences is neo turf masters. The range is: zero lag (arcade), slight noticeable lag (nintendo switch, win 7 mame), or worse lag (wii VC, neo geo cd emulator on win 10). Theres a couple gameplay inputs that I reference to mentally measure and adjust to lag, and across this chain I'm able to hit those inputs precisely without any lag adjustment.

All quite subjective I'm sure, but that's my $.02. And nonetheless, this thread has got me excited about my vp30 again. [THUMBS UP SIGN]


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