Mister FPGA vs Real Hardware, Any Regrets?

[pegboy]

Don't you need a custom core for each game? The 68000 games all have different layouts/chips/etc, are they all going to be supported? I guess most people would probably just be happy to have DDP playable at a minimum.

[Arasoi]

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[fernan1234]

Since a while ago a lot of different arcade games have been "merged" into the same core, as they share the same hardware.

[SamIAm]

I feel like I'm facing a sunk-cost fallacy with my CMVS thanks to the MiSTer.

Never being much of a Neo Geo guy but finally having cash to burn a few years ago, I bought an Omega CMVS, a few good controllers, and a 120-in-1 multicart. Then it became known just how shoddy those multicarts are, and I could no longer use mine on this precious old hardware in good conscience. The next logical step for me was to buy a Terraonion cart, but I wound up putting that off. Then the virtually-perfect MiSTer core came out.

On one hand, buying a MiSTer for Neo Geo is basically admitting defeat with my investment in the CMVS. On the other, a Terraonion cart is hundreds of dollars more, and for a guy like me with no attachment to the "real" hardware, I don't quite see what I'd be getting for that money.

Thus, I sit on my hands and play no Neo Geo. It's a bit pathetic, really.

[KonradKlaus]

I feel like I'm facing a sunk-cost fallacy
Never being much of a Neo Geo guy but finally having cash to burn a few years ago, I bought an Omega CMVS, a few good controllers, and a 120-in-1 multicart. Then it became known just how shoddy those multicarts are, and I could no longer use mine on this precious old hardware in good conscience. The next logical step for me was to buy a Terraonion cart, but I wound up putting that off. Then the virtually-perfect MiSTer core came out.

I was at a similar crossroads. I have acquired most consoles, but no neo geo. I realized I could get a mister, a blisster, and a neo geo cd controller and still be far cheaper than a neo geo and a flash cart. Neo Geo is a ton of fun, but I totally don't need to buy one now. Now if they could just get that Jag core working so I don't go out and buy one of those...

[azmun]

While I do not yet currently own a MiSTer, I do have some thoughts on emulation/simulation vs. real hardware. For those considering making the switch altogether, why not? This is a very personal choice. In my opinion, there is no substitute for real hardware. There are only acceptable or tolerable alternatives. And for most, "better" just means more convenient. For the purist, anything less than real resonates without soul.

That said, the appeal MiSTer offers me is not to replace any of my existing consoles. Rather, it is to gain access to other libraries (e.g. Neo Geo, X68K) that previously, have been relatively inaccessible or prohibitively expensive. I'm also quite partial to ODEs as viable alternative for the preservation of my CD-based systems.

[BuckoA51]

I don't use mine a lot being as I have a good setup with most of the original systems I want to use but I have really appreciated it for older computers like MSX etc. Computers are even harder to accommodate in a games room since you can't just stuff them on a shelf if you actually want to use their keyboards etc, which many games require.

On the flipside since a PC keyboard is often mapped differently to, say, an MSX or Commodore 64, that can be a hassle, so I'd still definitely keep my favorite retro computers too.

[Bassa-Bassa]

For the purist, anything less than real resonates without soul.

"Purism" doesn't need to imply tangibility, though (or odourability, while you're at it - I'm still to find something which smells like my old AES cartridges did - see? this can get quite silly ). A "purist" gamer would just need a perfect game play experience (which I really thought that was what this thread was going to be about, too bad).

[azmun]

A "purist" gamer would just need a perfect game play experience (which I really thought that was what this thread was going to be about, too bad).

Sorry but I did not wish to imply tangibility or objectivity. Not sure I understand what a "perfect game play experience" means. If it has to do with accuracy, then we are dealing with approximations. These values differ or are in stark contrast to authenticity which looks at uniqueness and appreciating (or at least noticing) the nuances, imperfections, flaws, variability, etc. of genuine hardware. Again, this is a very personal and subjective matter. It involves the overall connection--sound, feedback, feel and all. If none of this can be perceived then the choice may be more obvious. Unless of course, one has other considerations as previously mentioned (nostalgia, collection, etc.).

[donluca]

Thus, I sit on my hands and play no Neo Geo. It's a bit pathetic, really.

I feel you man.

If MiSTer was around, say, 3-4 years ago, I would have saved tons of money I spent on Arcade PCBs for my cab.
Now I own all the boards I care about (minus one, Hook, which has an injustifiable hefty price) so it's kind of too late.

I'm still debating whether to sell all my stuff and get a MiSTer... who knows maybe one day I'll finally cash in all my stuff and get a MiSTer.

[Arasoi]

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[Blacksheep]

It would delight me if the user above could finally be banned.

[Arasoi]

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[Bassa-Bassa]

Sorry but I did not wish to imply tangibility or objectivity.

My bad, then (I wish it had been the norm here, you know).

Not sure I understand what a "perfect game play experience" means. If it has to do with accuracy, then we are dealing with approximations. These values differ or are in stark contrast to authenticity which looks at uniqueness and appreciating (or at least noticing) the nuances, imperfections, flaws, variability, etc. of genuine hardware. Again, this is a very personal and subjective matter. It involves the overall connection--sound, feedback, feel and all. If none of this can be perceived then the choice may be more obvious.

It totally has to do with accuracy. Ultimately, I'm of the opinion that a 99.9% approximation equals to 100% perfect. I mean, if there are no nuances/flaws which can be perceived by anybody, the emulation can serve as a *perfect* replacement of the real thing, so it's not actually that "subjective" even on the user layer. And I'm interested in knowing how it really is at this point with Mister - I'm getting one device sooner or later (even with a very nice Groovymame setup fully working) but there have been claims of "extremely high degree of accuracy" once and again (even for cores like the SNES one - the PC Engine one is said to be in a very good status, though), but seems the people's standards are pretty low in general.

If MiSTer was around, say, 3-4 years ago, I would have saved tons of money I spent on Arcade PCBs for my cab.
Now I own all the boards I care about (minus one, Hook, which has an injustifiable hefty price) so it's kind of too late.

What's the issue with Hook on Groovymame?

[shroom2k]

And I'm interested in knowing how it really is at this point with Mister - I'm getting one device sooner or later (even with a very nice Groovymame setup fully working) but there have been claims of "extremely high degree of accuracy" once and again (even for cores like the SNES one - the PC Engine one is said to be in a very good status, though), but seems the people's standards are pretty low in general.

What would be the criteria you'd use to measure accuracy? Not sure if anyone can guarantee that you won't find a broken pixel at level 5 of some obscure japanese game that barely anyone played.

MiSTer is used by a somewhat significant community of gamers, who've played most of the more well known games. The people seem to be satisfied and are not noticing any differences. There are very few reported issues at GitHub. Any reported issue gets reviewed and fixed quickly, since the developers care about accuracy a lot.

But of course, they may be inaccuracies that nobody noticed because people just don't know what to look for.

[Bassa-Bassa]

For instance, you know that the Megadrive core has to be in very good form when you find out that Landstalker's menu tinkle is correct. But yeah, that's indeed my question - if actual dedicated testers (people who know well the games) are helping out. When you find easy claims of "extremely high degree of accuracy" you kind of think of it as a given, don't you?


An Irem M62 core seems to be just released, btw! Does it emulate the analog audio system for games like Kid Niki, like Mame does (with so many resources)?

[shroom2k]

When you find easy claims of "extremely high degree of accuracy" you kind of think of it as a given, don't you?

I see what you mean, but you can't really do anything about this. The best thing you are going to get is "MiSTer plays the trickier tech demos, doesn't have some of the issues that plagued emulators for years, and people who use it rarely complain." There will always be people who will believe that this is enough to claim 'extremely high degree of accuracy'. In reality, however, it's probably "good enough that most don't notice any problems". Take it as you will.

[fernan1234]

I see what you mean, but you can't really do anything about this. The best thing you are going to get is "MiSTer plays the trickier tech demos, doesn't have some of the issues that plagued emulators for years, and people who use it rarely complain." There will always be people who will believe that this is enough to claim 'extremely high degree of accuracy'. In reality, however, it's probably "good enough that most don't notice any problems". Take it as you will.

Both of those evaluations would be bad in regard to "MiSTer" as a whole. Each core has to be evaluated individually. Different cores range from virtually identical to original hardware performance down to less accurate and limited than currently available software emulators.

[orange808]

I see what you mean, but you can't really do anything about this. The best thing you are going to get is "MiSTer plays the trickier tech demos, doesn't have some of the issues that plagued emulators for years, and people who use it rarely complain." There will always be people who will believe that this is enough to claim 'extremely high degree of accuracy'. In reality, however, it's probably "good enough that most don't notice any problems". Take it as you will.

Both of those evaluations would be bad in regard to "MiSTer" as a whole. Each core has to be evaluated individually. Different cores range from virtually identical to original hardware performance down to less accurate and limited than currently available software emulators.

That same idea can also be applied to your statement, as you just painted all software emulation with a clumsy inaccurate wide brush.

Different emus will have different performance.

[fernan1234]

That same idea can also be applied to your statement, as you just painted all software emulation with a clumsy inaccurate wide brush.

Different emus will have different performance.

I was obviously referring to a direct comparison between a given MiSTer core and the corresponding "best in class" software emulator for the system in question.

[donluca]

What's the issue with Hook on Groovymame?

The issue is that I don't have a GroovyMAME setup anymore since I own all of the boards I wanted (minus that one)

But really, I've seen prices as high as 300€, I might get the MiSTer just for that game alone if M92 gets properly emulated, LOL.

[Galgomite]

No regrets, and the CRT/ HD compatibility is a big part of that. I'll never part from classic consoles it duplicates but they aren't going to be used much if at all from now on.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Different cores range from virtually identical to original hardware

That's even above "extremely high degree of accuracy"! Can you speak confidently (lol) as to which cores are those at present? You mentioned in the other thread the PCE core would be one?

What's the issue with Hook on Groovymame?

The issue is that I don't have a GroovyMAME setup anymore since I own all of the boards I wanted (minus that one)

But really, I've seen prices as high as 300€, I might get the MiSTer just for that game alone if M92 gets properly emulated, LOL.

Chances for an M92 core soon enough are quite high, attending to the hardware's complexity and the popularity of its games. A glitches-free R-Type Leo would be neat. Mame devs seem to totally have lost interest in this driver.

But I don't follow? You're now "debating whether to sell all your stuff and get a MiSTer" whereas you got rid of a Groovymame setup? I understand that the PCBs you wanted didn't have good Mame emulation 4 years ago but now you blindly believe in Mister's devs? Which games were those?

[digitron]

Worst case scenario you have a device that plays all the popular retro consoles with a builtin scaler...pretty sure you can't go wrong.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Hey digitron, do you know if this has been already reported to Jotego?

Also, does his CPS core definitely solve Mame's longstanding waitstates problem (affecting slowdown)?

[donluca]

Yes it does.

Also, about me... I started out with just a Sony BVM and the consoles I've already owned, discovered GroovyMAME and made a dedicated setup with that.

After that I got an arcade cab and since my interests were mainly in the CPS1/2 and NeoGeo which are all afflicted by the lack of wait states emulation in MAME, I decided to just get the boards I wanted.
When I managed to get ahold of most of them, I decided that my GM setup wasn't necessary anymore and sold it (although I still have my BVM, mainly for testing purposes).

Now with the MiSTer being (apparently) 100% accurate thanks to Jotego's (and others) efforts, I was really thinking about cashing in my PCBs and get a MiSTer.

We'll see.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Didn't know that Mame's Neogeo driver was so afflicted at present by the lack of waitstates emulation as well (aside of the infamous Garou: MOTW glitch). Is Mister's NG core as good as the CPS one? Last I read they were forcing AES' 59.94 clock instead of the original MVS' 59.18Hz for TV compatibility reasons and lost interest.

[azmun]

Different cores range from virtually identical to original hardware

That's even above "extremely high degree of accuracy"! Can you speak confidently (lol) as to which cores are those at present? You mentioned in the other thread the PCE core would be one?

Suspension of disbelief is nice. In any case, it's great to have more discerning enthusiasts support this platform and the recent excitement its generating. I just hope it trickles down to a wider user base as progress seems to rely on community feedback.

[Harrumph]

It would delight me if the user above could finally be banned.

+1
Stop being such a douche Arasoi.

[Johnpv]

I recently got a MiSTer setup. I was excited by the idea of lag free arcade cores. I have alot of consoles, and some of the Analogue stuff, which I like using OG hardware and games with, so I wasn't looking to replace that. So I haven't really messed with the console side of things outside of some testing. For me I'll be honest I've been disappointed in the MiSTer's ........I call it usability. Some of the things I like about the Analogue stuff is the exact control over the resolution, and that I have the option to adjust the timing of the consoles by a small percentage so that the output refresh matches the HDMI standard. I wish I had some of those options here. Plus I feel I've had a hard time finding a filter that actually just puts a small blur on the horizontal axis, but leaves the vertical untouched. So far all the ones I've tried that claim to do this soften both axis too much for me. Then because my tv and some other HDMI equipment don't like oddball refresh rates (similar reason why I stick with my framemeister instead of getting an OSSC) I have to run the mister with the vsync mode that adds 2 frames of lag. So not lagless any more. My other big issue is how much of a wild west the vertical arcade cores are. Some rotate CW, some rotate CCW, and there is no way to control that. I've got an expensive wall mount for my tv that rotates CCW which was how almost everything that supports tate rotates, so all the ones that go the other way are kind of useless to me.

I understand wanting to be 100% accurate in recreating things, and I understand the 80s were a wild west period with no standards for some of this stuff, but I wish there were usability options. Right now for my experience, and this is mostly in regards to the arcade stuff, I don't really mess with the console cores, its been kind of meh. Between the 2 frames of lag, and the wild west of vertical games, I don't really know if I gain anything over my PI4 setup for arcade games. It is exciting stuff, and I see so much potential there, I just wish there was some one who could convince people to add in some usability improvements.