Buy 4K or 8K for next gen consoles

[andykara2003]

Apologies for posting this here - this has always been my forum of choice & I trust people here more than on AVforum/s. I’m about to buy a 55” TV for next gen systems & am trying to decide whether to go 4K or 8K. I’ve always been allergic to upscaling - I hate the look of 1080p games upscaled on 4K TVs. I’m concerned that I might find the same issue with 4K games/content running on an 8K tv, even though the impact will obviously be less than 1080p on a 4K panel. Very few games on next gen consoles will go higher than 4K and at 55” I think that 8K will be a minor improvement at 55”, but I’m worried I’ll be missing out in some way I’ve not yet conceived/understood if I go with 4K. I’ll go with a flagship QLED or OLED - but will probably keep it for 5 years or so, hence the trepidation.

Could anyone chime in? I’d be grateful for any advice..

[Fudoh]

a) don't buy a LCD TV in 2020
b) there are no 8K 55" OLEDs
c) problem solved.

(and there currently is no proper single connection to transfer 8K60 4:4:4, so any 8K TV offerered today is nothing more than a compromise).

[andykara2003]

Thanks as always Fudoh. What if I wait until 2021? That’s my other choice as the consoles won’t be here until December, so I could perhaps wait for a few months after that. Assuming they bring out an 8K 55” OLED, would there be any discernible improvement over 4K at that size?

(Thanks re. QLED, that’s definitely out of the running then).

[Fudoh]

What's your budget? The cheapest 8K OLED at the moment is something like $18,000. I don't think they'll drop into consumer price ranges by next year.

HDMI 2.1 can't do 8K 4:4:4, so it'll be years for 8K to be fully supported for that.

I personally don't see any advantage in 8K at all at this point.

[andykara2003]

That’s incredibly helpful & simplifies everything, thanks.

Just one more question if I may - my plasma’s opposite a bay window & room lighting & I get pretty bad reflections, which I find degrades my viewing experience. I rarely ever watch movies/play games in the dark or very low light conditions. My concern is that although OLED is technically superior to QLED, I might end up actually end up getting a worse real-world experience as the QLED (say Q90R), apparently has much better anti-reflection (according to HDTVTest), and is quite a bit brighter to combat the reflections.

Am I needlessly worrying about reflections and brighter room viewing with OLED? I’m wondering if perhaps the ~700 nit brightness of HDR on OLED might be alone enough to counter this problem to an acceptable level..

[Fudoh]

I wouldn't worry about peak brightness. OLED is easily bright enough. Reflections can be a problem though. There are no real matte high-end TVs any more, but then again reflections based on a bad window position will always be a problem. Anti-reflection coatings on TVs are mainly made to counter reflections of dimmed lights located left or right of the viewer's seating position.

[CMcK]

My OLED TV catches the light from a bay window but it’s not a problem for daytime viewing. LG OLEDs have accurate ISF preset picture modes for bright and dark room viewing so you can change depending on the amount of ambient light.

[andykara2003]

Great to know, 4K OLED it is then. Thanks again Fudoh, hugely appreciated. I don’t think I’d have found such definitive answers elsewhere..

CMcK - Cheers, also very helpful to know; next to decide which OLED to go for re. gaming - Sony for motion or LG for impact..

[Fudoh]

Unless you own a Sony right now and you've been using motionflow in very specific settings for years and are used to it, there's no reason to consider a Sony. LG's OLEDs are more up to date, better equipped in terms of gaming related features and have way better support for various signals (e.g. variable frame rate or 120Hz support).

[andykara2003]

Good to know - I’ll go with an LG C9 or CX then. Oddly, the CX seems to have had some HDMI 2.1 features scaled back from the C9 which has upset some people:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher ... l-hdmi-21/

The option was either to go with a C9 now (lower price, full HDMI 2.1) or wait for the CX. Am I right in saying that the C9 would actually be the better option, even disregarding price? I’ll be getting it mainly for playing games & movies on next gen consoles.

[Fudoh]

the article is click-bait. Don't give it any attention.

The CX introduces 120Hz BFI. This alone makes it a better choice for any gaming related setup, because it increases the perceived motion resolution considerably from the C9's 300 lines. There are no pros/cons, not against any LCD and not against the C9. The CX is per definition *THE* gaming TV of 2020 and 2021.

[shroom2k]

Is OLED now acceptable as a secondary PC monitor? Like, can I put a DAW on there with static windows for a few hours?

[andykara2003]

the article is click-bait. Don't give it any attention.

The CX introduces 120Hz BFI. This alone makes it a better choice for any gaming related setup, because it increases the perceived motion resolution considerably from the C9's 300 lines. There are no pros/cons, not against any LCD and not against the C9. The CX is per definition *THE* gaming TV of 2020 and 2021.

Brilliant, the CX it is. I got more accurate here in a few hours than I would have from days of research! In fact I think I could still have easily made the wrong choice.

Thanks a million Fudoh, really appreciate it.

[fernan1234]

Just want to add that the current Sony OLED (and hopefully future models too) should not be discounted too quickly vs. a CX this year for gaming. Motionflow itself is something to appreciate, and it may be preferred by some over straight 120Hz BFI for gaming. Added lag for games has also been reduced to an "acceptable" 21.3 ms, with the advantage that, unlike TVs by other manufacturers, "low-lag" Game mode does not involve compromises on picture quality features.

See this recent HDTVTest video (Sony X950H vs Samsung QLED comparison, but info is pertinent to this topic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DaZE_VGytQ

[Fudoh]

Sony's OLEDs are great TVs that allow you to also use them for gaming. LG's OLEDs are fantastic gaming displays which can also be used to watch TV and movies. Missing VRR is quite a thing if you primarily use a TV for current and next gen gaming.

[Revolver Ocelot]

I do not think that there is a point in considering a 8k TV for gaming now. I am aware that the next gen consoles or at least the ps5 can output 8k but it is doubtful that it is using for gaming. Maybe for some move outputs. So for gaming a 4k display should suffice.

I am also on the fence if I should get a new tv together with ps5.

As already mentioned the LG oleds have a good reputation for gaming. I have read many good things about them. The LG C9 is among the favorites for gamers.

I am interested in the LG CX. If is still available in mid 2021 i might get one of them as well.

[Guspaz]

I don't think there's a point in considering 8K for anything ever, even if you sit only six feet from the TV.

[CMcK]

I do not think that there is a point in considering a 8k TV for gaming now. I am aware that the next gen consoles or at least the ps5 can output 8k but it is doubtful that it is using for gaming. Maybe for some move outputs. So for gaming a 4k display should suffice.

I am also on the fence if I should get a new tv together with ps5.

As already mentioned the LG oleds have a good reputation for gaming. I have read many good things about them. The LG C9 is among the favorites for gamers.

I am interested in the LG CX. If is still available in mid 2021 i might get one of them as well.

The LG CX has only started to appear in shops recently and will be heavily discounted by the time 2021 rolls around. You will probably be able to purchase a CX for a good price Q1 next year.

[nmalinoski]

I don't think there's a point in considering 8K for anything ever, even if you sit only six feet from the TV.

Maybe if you're desperate for full-screen integer scaling for 480p? (Not that there's anything out there right now that'll integer scale to 8K.)

[Fudoh]

Maybe if you're desperate for full-screen integer scaling for 480p?

and what machine is supposed to take care of that? TVs don't suddenly snap into integer scaling mode only because the source/target resolution ratio would allow for it.

[fernan1234]

Maybe if you're desperate for full-screen integer scaling for 480p?

and what machine is supposed to take care of that? TVs don't suddenly snap into integer scaling mode only because the source/target resolution ratio would allow for it.

Yep, this is unfortunate. Everyone had high hopes for 720p on 4k (many still think it's integer scaled), but all 4K TVs scale 1080p much better than 720p.

[orange808]

Indeed. I don't know of any 8k video scalers.

The only reason I welcome 8k is the possibility that it will push 4k gear out into the used market at affordable prices.

[bigbadboaz]

I don't think there's a point in considering 8K for anything ever, even if you sit only six feet from the TV.

Unfortunately, you can still count on the TV industry pushing it on us just a few years from now.

[andykara2003]

Sony's OLEDs are great TVs that allow you to also use them for gaming. LG's OLEDs are fantastic gaming displays which can also be used to watch TV and movies. Missing VRR is quite a thing if you primarily use a TV for current and next gen gaming.

Interesting - yes, unless I'm mistaken, I gather that the Sonys are better for upscaling and motion (when not using BFI) but have less 'impact' to the image than the LGs. We use our plasma about 80% for watching Netflix & general streaming and say 20% for gaming. Having all the HDMI 2.1 features is important to me so as to be ready for the new consoles so I'll probably go for the LG - but I do have one concern:

Our internet connection is pretty rough (4-5Mb/s down, 0.5 up), so streaming won't go above HD quality and sometimes even dips below that. Is the LG going to actually look worse than my plasma for streaming in my case as upscaling isn't the strong point of these TVs? And would the Sony look noticeably better for TV watching in my case considering I can't watch in 4K? I really want the gaming credentials of the LG, but it's a little concerning that I might spend a load of money on a TV that actually is a step down in image quality compared to my plasma for general TV watching..

[Josh128]

Sound advice from the Lord of Thunder...

My own thought on the matter is that upscaling when not absolutely necessary should always be avoided. There wont be any true 8k games on these upcoming systems. Tech demos, maybe. Checkerboard - pseudo 8K? Perhaps a few. But the reality is that even true 8k downscaled to the best 4K OLED screen will have better image quality than what it would have natively on an 8k LCD. The LG OLEDs are mind-numbingly gorgeous.

[Guspaz]

I'm pretty sure that nobody could tell the difference, at typical viewing distances, between 480p scaled to 2160p (4K) using a sharp bilinear scaler, and an integer nearest-neighbour scale to 4320p (8K) television. Even if you got up close, the difference would be minimal, a veeeeeeery subtle one pixel wide softening at pixel boundaries.

LG's scaling for retro content is normally praised due to the combination of very crisp scaling and extremely configurable position/size that lets you dial any retro system in to fill the screen. Though perhaps that crispness is because you'd likely be feeding a 480p signal through an OSSC to scale to 960p. I guess a 480p signal might be a bit softer than some people like if scaled by the TV itself.

[BONKERS]

Please dont' bother with 8k. It's pointless waste of technology.
Display technology needs to improve more than resolution at this stage. It's just another gimmick to sell more TVs. At average seating distances your eyes won't be able to perceive the difference in the majority of scenarios. And less upscaling is always better.
There's no way the new consoles will be able to run anything other than maybe an up res port of a PS1/PS2/GCN Era game at native 8k.

[ZellSF]

Agree that there's no point in 8K now. By the time 8K content is standard, there will be some part of the equipment you buy now that will be unable to display it properly. Think buying a 4K TV before HDR standards were (somewhat) finalized.

At average seating distances your eyes won't be able to perceive the difference in the majority of scenarios.

The exceptions are really what you care about though. Most of the time I don't notice the difference between 1080p and 4K. When I do however it's because something looks seriously wrong.

And less upscaling is always better.

This is just incorrect.

I'm not saying there's (subjective) times where avoiding more upscaling is a good idea, but to say less upscaling is always better is just wrong. Regardless of if "less upscaling" refers to the pixel amount or the amount of scaling passes.

Yes it's pedantic, but some people will read stuff like that, accept it as fact and spread it.

I'm pretty sure that nobody could tell the difference, at typical viewing distances, between 480p scaled to 2160p (4K) using a sharp bilinear scaler, and an integer nearest-neighbour scale to 4320p (8K) television.

On a computer monitor I can tell 480p upscaled to 4K like that is slightly fuzzy, granted with computer monitors your viewing distance/monitor size is better than with TVs, but not so significantly I would say absolutely no TV user could tell the difference.

I don't think it's a difference worth caring about though.

I’m about to buy a 55” TV for next gen systems & am trying to decide whether to go 4K or 8K.

I think the only important thing to check for in a TV for next generation consoles will be VRR (variable refresh rate). As far as I understand it's already starting to get common on TVs?

[kamiboy]

It is doubteful that next gen systems will be able to do 4k@60, certainly not if they intend to do use ray tracing. If any games will ever be able to output full 8k next generation they will be super simple looking games. No 8k movies will be made in the coming years, the industry is pretty entrenched in the camera, mastering tech they currently have. Hell, most newer movies on UDH Blu-ray are not even in 4k, but 2k.

In short 8k is a fool's pursuit.

SONY TV's might have better processing, but if I am not mistaken even their 2020 OLED's are not full HDMI 2.1 compatible. The CX 48 gbps to 40 gbps "downgrade" is meaningless as that just means that they canno receive 12 bit 4:4:4. What the alarmist fail to mention is that all current displays are 10 bit anyway, so even if you feed a C9 a 12 bit colour signal it cannot do anything with it, it gets truncated to 10 bit.

Lastly, all OLED TV's but LG's use android which is universally reviled as being unreliable and slow. LG's WebOS is great, worth getting their TV for that alone.

[Guspaz]

The inability to turn off the mouse pointer thing on LG TVs is slightly annoying, though.

webOS started out life as the operating system of the failed Palm Pre smartphones, which were basically ahead of their time in terms of multitasking functionality but didn't have the hardware to make such a system usable. It's a Linux-based OS, like Android.

Application support is weaker than Android, and you may find that not all streaming services are supported by the TV, requiring the use of external devices. Six years after launch, and despite it having apps for a ton of different platforms, CraveTV, the largest streaming service in Canada and only way to stream HBO in the country, is still not supported, for example. The LG app store is like 95% Korean shovelware and there are less than 600 apps in total.