Terraonion MODE - Dreamcast & Saturn ODE

[Greg2600]

Replacing the drive ODE's are simply more reliable solutions. Emulating a drive is straightforward for them. The PSIO guys have said their DCIO project would allow for the OEM drive to remain in place, but I doubt that thing is on the horizon.

Satiator will be be the first Saturn product (aside from Pseudo) implementation, but Prof Abrasive's incredible engineering is not exactly widespread. Clearly his approach was novel.

[kitty666cats]

Some people also complain about the Satiator occupying the video card slot, but it's nothing to just pop it out and plug in the video card whenever you want to play some Lunar (really the only game for which this matters).

It's hard to imagine which ODE I'd be leaning in towards if I didn't luckily mange to nab a Phoebe order last year, it's a pretty tough call! Satiator looks so delightfully easy to deal with, but considering I already had a (clone) GDEMU and saw how easy ODEs are to install, I would have been pretty torn right now with the Fenrir starting to go full-steam-ahead... and since I was so dead-set on getting a Phoebe back when they were the only option, I prob would have squeezed in an order by now regardless

I'm overall happy with the Phoebe, but it's kinda surprising to me that nobody out there collabs to update Rmenu / make some sorta new and improved GUI. I really ought to take a look at how Fenrir and Satiator's menu systems are shaping up to look, I think if I was in the shoes right now of someone who wanted to get a Saturn ODE I would be at a complete crossroads (...except for the fact that Rhea/Phoebe order windows are only a handful of times a year. BUT they're pretty easy order windows to accommodate if you set up notifications for site updates / set an alarm to wake up early & refresh like mad when Deunan says he will open up the orders. They are usually right on the dot of the times specified).

SO, yeah, I am kinda curious: people in here who do not have a Saturn ODE, but really want one, and are familiar with how all the available/soon to be released ones look and operate - what grips you folks the most?

I know there's plenty of footage out there of people testing Satiator beta units, but I can't say that I have looked up videos of Fenrir in action/for all I know there's little to none. So it's possible that interested parties may not even have an answer for my general question!

[Konsolkongen]

SO, yeah, I am kinda curious: people in here who do not have a Saturn ODE, but really want one, and are familiar with how all the available/soon to be released ones look and operate - what grips you folks the most?

I own most Saturn releases worth playing, and I don't really want to pirate anything. So the Satiator is the only solution I find interesting for fan translations primarily, but I also own a few non 60Hz compatible PAL titles that I would like the play the US version of instead

[ApolloBoy]

SO, yeah, I am kinda curious: people in here who do not have a Saturn ODE, but really want one, and are familiar with how all the available/soon to be released ones look and operate - what grips you folks the most?

Grips or gripes?

[matt]

I'd have ordered one for my Saturn if I hadn't already bought a Phoebe, mostly for Bin/Cue support. As it stands, my Phoebe and GDEmu are both fine for my needs and I see no reason to upgrade. I have no desire to put the whole system library on one drive or to swap the whole unit between systems.

I've had a great time with TO's other products (SSDS3 access noise doesn't bother me), but I personally find their menus a little cluttered and prefer the simplicity of Rmenu despite how clumsy it is to set up.

$200 sounds like a high price point, but seeing how Phoebe/Rheas sell for a lot more than that on Ebay I doubt they'll have a hard time clearing their inventory.

[Flashman]

I must say I am quite tempted - from past experience TO products are amazing, though their customer service is another matter. I'd never buy anything direct from TO again and leave it 6 months after release, to make sure we aren't getting a prototype or a flash cart without a bevel sent out to us

I think I'm just going to hold out a little longer for the Satiator, it is supposed to be in Beta last I heard and I am reasonably confident we will see it eventually.

[Voultar]

Jesus Fucking Christ of Latter Day Saints. I wish I never fixed the video output on the SSDS3. I often feel like it's created more problems than it ever solved.

Can we not just talk about the goddamn MODE without irrelevant bullshit that should be taken to DM's?


So here are my thoughts:

1) The kit looks nice. The UI is super groovy and appears to have a lot of polish.
2) The SATA interface is quite nice as it adds a lot of convenience for storage.
3) The "dual use", regardless of how it's toted up, isn't a convenience to the customer.. Nobody is going to keep the tops off of their Saturn/Dreamcast just so they can swap the MODE between their respective systems. This was a manufacturing win for TO as it greatly reduces their manufacturing overhead to assemble a single device that supports two different platforms.
4) I think it's too expensive. $218/shipped would've palatable (to me) if the Saturn and Dreamcast didn't already have viable options that though might be difficult to come by, are available. I've never dropped more than $120 on any type of flash-cart, and I probably never will. If the MODE was priced closer to $150, I'd go easier on it. That's just my opinion. If it's worth it to you, it's worth it to you. Don't get butthurt about it.
5) With Terraonion, I can't, in good conscious recommend that anyone be an "early adopter". I personally would wait a bit and let the kit get out in the open and circulate before rushing my money to them. I'd want to make sure that the hardware is both polished and mature enough for a stable release to the public.

Since I get e-mails about this, let me clarify:

I don't work with TO, I don't talk to TO. I haven't spoken to any of those guys since I coordinated with them to fix the analog problems that plagued video on the SSDS3. My opinions are that of an outsider and I have no vested interest or inside track of knowledge.

As for the people who still have a bad taste in their mouth from TO; You are not wrong to feel that way, at all. A lot of people got the shitty end of the stick, I don't think that can be contested. People who were there in the beginning know precisely why it is that you feel the way that you do, and you don't need to justify/defend that. Full stop. Having said that, TO seems to be handling their business better.

[maxtherabbit]

SO, yeah, I am kinda curious: people in here who do not have a Saturn ODE, but really want one, and are familiar with how all the available/soon to be released ones look and operate - what grips you folks the most?

Grips or gripes?

they did surgery on a grape

[fernan1234]

100% with everything in Voultar's post. Don't worry, I think the irrelevant BS is done.

Maybe would only touch again on the "dual use" potential. For someone who dedicates themselves to a single system for long stretches of time, it may be doable to, say, spend a few months playing through some Saturn games, and then take a break from it and switch for a few months to the DC. Swapping this thing in and out of each console 2-3 times per year doesn't sound too bad, though obviously not ideal. But if it works, it can be seen as $100 per ODE for each console, which is not bad. Of course, this is all assuming that the use experience surpasses all the alternative devices. Not early adopting definitely seems like the best approach.

[Greg2600]

1. I agree with Voultar on early adoption, though I have been getting their stuff from Stone Age Gamer, so most of the bugs have been worked out by then.

2. You're probably going to have to leave the lids unscrewed for awhile, as you need to get to the drive that you've installed.

[shroom2k]

$200 is adequate. Isn't SD2SNES also $200? And it's pretty essential.

[Flashman]

As for the people who still have a bad taste in their mouth from TO; You are not wrong to feel that way, at all. A lot of people got the shitty end of the stick, I don't think that can be contested. People who were there in the beginning know precisely why it is that you feel the way that you do, and you don't need to justify/defend that. Full stop. Having said that, TO seems to be handling their business better.

To be fair they set the bench mark pretty low to start with, at the time of the release of the Mega SD the TO forums were lit up, and we noticed Todd would specifically only talk to European customers whose first language was not English, so that he could basically just make them look foolish - anyone who spoke English or showed a bit of intelligence when asking legit questions got the cold shoulder.

Another popular deflection tactic was, when anyone asked where is my 2 month over due product and why have you moved to a tax haven, mislead customers and sneakily passed costs onto them (totally the opposite of what was stated on pre-order) and grossly underestimated Andorra's postal service capacity to deliver our orders in a timely fashion? We would get "Boo hoo, don't you feel sorry for us, we've had to up route our family to Andorra and we are currently doing our own laundry!" To put it bluntly Todd put these words in order: Don't, Fuck, I, Give, A.

To be fair that was his creative answer - usually we would just get told to stop whining while they take a bath in our tax free cash.

[fernan1234]

Isn't SD2SNES also $200? And it's pretty essential.

That's the price of the Pro, the original would have been a bit cheaper. But yes, the SD2SNES is essential. But can you say the same of a DC or Saturn ODE? There are alternatives for each, in the case of the DC a much cheaper one with clone GDEMUs. The Saturn has a cheap and viable Pseudo Saturn cart option too. One can also argue that the Saturn and DC are far below the SNES in popularity.

Really what it will come down to is one's assessment of the value added of greater file format support and storage, better UI, and potentially absence of the few glitches present in the alternatives (without adding new ones).

[shroom2k]

Isn't SD2SNES also $200? And it's pretty essential.

That's the price of the Pro, the original would have been a bit cheaper. But yes, the SD2SNES is essential. But can you say the same of a DC or Saturn ODE? There are alternatives for each, in the case of the DC a much cheaper one with clone GDEMUs.

For DC - absolutely not essential. GDEMU and its clones are great and cheap.

The Saturn has a cheap and viable Pseudo Saturn cart option too.

As I understand, it's not an ODE? The whole point is to not use disks.

One can also argue that the Saturn and DC are far below the SNES in popularity.

Which is probably why they might actually cost more, as they're more of a luxury, compared to more widely available SNES solutions.

Really what it will come down to is one's assessment of the value added of greater file format support and storage, better UI, and potentially absence of the few glitches present in the alternatives (without adding new ones).

I think for Saturn, which has a huge library of great games and no easily available solutions, the price of $200 for a solution comparable to SD2SNES in terms of compatibility and convenience, is very acceptable.

Basically, I disagree that $200 is too expensive, but agree that this may come down to personal preferences and needs.

[Flashman]

I think for Saturn, which has a huge library of great games and no easily available solutions, the price of $200 for a solution comparable to SD2SNES in terms of compatibility and convenience, is very acceptable.

Basically, I disagree that $200 is too expensive, but agree that this may come down to personal preferences and needs.

I think that seems a decent price point to be fair - indeed I'd even go a bit higher than that - hard be stingy about it when you see the prices of a single Japan excusive SHMUP. When the time comes to pick what solution I'm going for, I'm going to sell my copy of Radiant Silvergun and basically get the whole Saturn library for free in exchange.

[Bassa-Bassa]

As for the people who still have a bad taste in their mouth from TO; You are not wrong to feel that way, at all. A lot of people got the shitty end of the stick, I don't think that can be contested. People who were there in the beginning know precisely why it is that you feel the way that you do, and you don't need to justify/defend that. Full stop. Having said that, TO seems to be handling their business better.

To be fair they set the bench mark pretty low to start with, at the time of the release of the Mega SD the TO forums were lit up, and we noticed Todd would specifically only talk to European customers whose first language was not English, so that he could basically just make them look foolish - anyone who spoke English or showed a bit of intelligence when asking legit questions got the cold shoulder.

Another popular deflection tactic was, when anyone asked where is my 2 month over due product and why have you moved to a tax haven, mislead customers and sneakily passed costs onto them (totally the opposite of what was stated on pre-order) and grossly underestimated Andorra's postal service capacity to deliver our orders in a timely fashion? We would get "Boo hoo, don't you feel sorry for us, we've had to up route our family to Andorra and we are currently doing our own laundry!" To put it bluntly Todd put these words in order: Don't, Fuck, I, Give, A.

To be fair that was his creative answer - usually we would just get told to stop whining while they take a bath in our tax free cash.

Thanks for letting us (the ones who were once customers but could not stand them or their forums anymore) know how it developed after the SSDS3 fiasco. Really ashamed of sharing nationality with people like these. Though I guess being born as a company in the neo-geo.com forum was a decisive factor.

[Arthrimus]

I think for Saturn, which has a huge library of great games and no easily available solutions, the price of $200 for a solution comparable to SD2SNES in terms of compatibility and convenience, is very acceptable.

Basically, I disagree that $200 is too expensive, but agree that this may come down to personal preferences and needs.

I could be wrong about this because I don't know the details of the MODE's BOM, but I doubt it's any where near as expensive to produce as the SD2SNES. The SD2SNES's FPGA alone is $30 because it has so many logic elements. Now even if MODE's BOM cost is lower, it may still be a fair price point if the number of units sold is expected to be much lower. Development cost has to be recouped, but then again Ikari and others have spent years working on the FPGA cores for the SD2SNES so I don't know if it's development costs can really be fully quantified.

[H6rdc0re]

I think for Saturn, which has a huge library of great games and no easily available solutions, the price of $200 for a solution comparable to SD2SNES in terms of compatibility and convenience, is very acceptable.

Basically, I disagree that $200 is too expensive, but agree that this may come down to personal preferences and needs.

I could be wrong about this because I don't know the details of the MODE's BOM, but I doubt it's any where near as expensive to produce as the SD2SNES. The SD2SNES's FPGA alone is $30 because it has so many logic elements. Now even if MODE's BOM cost is lower, it may still be a fair price point if the number of units sold is expected to be much lower. Development cost has to be recouped, but then again Ikari and others have spent years working on the FPGA cores for the SD2SNES so I don't know if it's development costs can really be fully quantified.

They appear to be using the Spartan-6 XC6SLX16.

[broken]

As for the people who still have a bad taste in their mouth from TO; You are not wrong to feel that way, at all. A lot of people got the shitty end of the stick, I don't think that can be contested. People who were there in the beginning know precisely why it is that you feel the way that you do, and you don't need to justify/defend that. Full stop. Having said that, TO seems to be handling their business better.

To be fair they set the bench mark pretty low to start with, at the time of the release of the Mega SD the TO forums were lit up, and we noticed Todd would specifically only talk to European customers whose first language was not English, so that he could basically just make them look foolish - anyone who spoke English or showed a bit of intelligence when asking legit questions got the cold shoulder.

Another popular deflection tactic was, when anyone asked where is my 2 month over due product and why have you moved to a tax haven, mislead customers and sneakily passed costs onto them (totally the opposite of what was stated on pre-order) and grossly underestimated Andorra's postal service capacity to deliver our orders in a timely fashion? We would get "Boo hoo, don't you feel sorry for us, we've had to up route our family to Andorra and we are currently doing our own laundry!" To put it bluntly Todd put these words in order: Don't, Fuck, I, Give, A.

To be fair that was his creative answer - usually we would just get told to stop whining while they take a bath in our tax free cash.

Wow. Just wow.

I answered time and time again that packages taking longer than expected was due to them sitting in customs waiting to be processed. Completely out of our control and no matter how many times we tried to pressure them to process more of them on a daily basis, it didn't happen. You might not like that and we certainly didn't like it.

I never once stated that I didn't give a fuck. Nor did I tell people to "stop whining". But no matter how many times you ask the same question, the answer isn't going to change.

[Greg2600]

I think for Saturn, which has a huge library of great games and no easily available solutions, the price of $200 for a solution comparable to SD2SNES in terms of compatibility and convenience, is very acceptable.

Basically, I disagree that $200 is too expensive, but agree that this may come down to personal preferences and needs.

Let's not forget that the DC-Digital HDMI mod kit itself is $130 from Black Dog, and needs to be installed professionally if you don't have the soldering skills. This device does not require those skills, but I'd say it's a tad more "essential" than the HDMI mod and not that much more money.

[fernan1234]

and not that much more money.

$70 / 54% more, sounds significant

And which one is more "essential" will be relative. For someone with no CRT and a large CD collection, the HDMI mod will probably seem much more important than an ODE.

[opt2not]

Let's not forget that the DC-Digital HDMI mod kit itself is $130 from Black Dog, and needs to be installed professionally if you don't have the soldering skills. This device does not require those skills, but I'd say it's a tad more "essential" than the HDMI mod and not that much more money.

I'd disagree with that. Some people can't even connect their DC's to a display device without some kind of HDMI solution.
Playability is still acheiveable, either through other ODE solutions or the old method of burning discs. But there are a lot of people that do not own a CRT, or a modern LCD that takes Composite or VGA (which practically all newer TV's now don't), the DC-Digital is defintely more essential than this device. (edit) If the average DC owner had to choose one over the other.

[maxtherabbit]

burning discs is almost trivially easy, I can't even begin to comprehend considering an ODE mod more important than a video mod

[Josh128]

burning discs is almost trivially easy, I can't even begin to comprehend considering an ODE mod more important than a video mod

Well, to be fair, drives are electro-mechanical devices much more prone to fail with use over time, and as many of their parts are proprietary, it wont be easy to replace or repair them as time goes on-- ODE's will enable the systems to be used long after their drives fail, so it is a very important development.

[Flashman]

As for the people who still have a bad taste in their mouth from TO; You are not wrong to feel that way, at all. A lot of people got the shitty end of the stick, I don't think that can be contested. People who were there in the beginning know precisely why it is that you feel the way that you do, and you don't need to justify/defend that. Full stop. Having said that, TO seems to be handling their business better.

To be fair they set the bench mark pretty low to start with, at the time of the release of the Mega SD the TO forums were lit up, and we noticed Todd would specifically only talk to European customers whose first language was not English, so that he could basically just make them look foolish - anyone who spoke English or showed a bit of intelligence when asking legit questions got the cold shoulder.

Another popular deflection tactic was, when anyone asked where is my 2 month over due product and why have you moved to a tax haven, mislead customers and sneakily passed costs onto them (totally the opposite of what was stated on pre-order) and grossly underestimated Andorra's postal service capacity to deliver our orders in a timely fashion? We would get "Boo hoo, don't you feel sorry for us, we've had to up route our family to Andorra and we are currently doing our own laundry!" To put it bluntly Todd put these words in order: Don't, Fuck, I, Give, A.

To be fair that was his creative answer - usually we would just get told to stop whining while they take a bath in our tax free cash.

Wow. Just wow.

I answered time and time again that packages taking longer than expected was due to them sitting in customs waiting to be processed. Completely out of our control and no matter how many times we tried to pressure them to process more of them on a daily basis, it didn't happen. You might not like that and we certainly didn't like it.

I never once stated that I didn't give a fuck. Nor did I tell people to "stop whining". But no matter how many times you ask the same question, the answer isn't going to change.

Yes Todd, you did answer that time and again - what you never answered was why do customers find themselves in this situation in the first place? Why did TO not properly investigate Andorra’s postal services prior to the company doing a moonlight flit out there, smack bang in the middle of taking all the pre-order money and shipping the product? I distinctly remember when I pre-ordered the Mega SD it was stated as shipped from Spain, and so all EU countries could expect to receive the product with no import tax. Over night however, the company moved to Andorra and suddenly everyone in the EU was lumbered with an additional charge of 40-60 euros. How did TO let it’s customers know about this huge change in circumstances? I remember at the time because we had to look very hard: One post on Twitter. The fact that pre orders were delayed by 2 months was just the cherry on the shit Sunday - by that point TO had made themselves look shady enough, to make people doubt if they were going to receive the product at all.

I was not accusing you of saying you didn’t give a fuck, if you had read my post properly before jumping in with the usual half baked response, you will see I was telling you I didn’t give a fuck, when you would say we are having a difficult time at the moment because we have had to move out here.

I am glad however that you chose to quote me - it’s more than I could say 6 months ago on the TO forums, I quoted you at least 6 times (my username was the same as here) asking legit questions and didn’t get one solitary response - probably because I was not poor Herman from Germany, attempting to find out where his 250 Euros were, with the help of Google translate.

[FBX]

Here's my take on the griping going on here:

No matter WHAT happened in reality, some people in this thread have already formed a negative biased opinion about MODE and/or TO. There's NOTHING Todd or anyone else could possibly say to change your minds. So why even bother trying to answer your interrogative angry questions? No answer is going to make you suddenly change your stance.

I also noted there's even people actually turning pure speculation into fact (like BOM costs for example). You're just whipping yourselves up into a frenzy intentionally, when all you have to do is just not buy the product. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I wish you best of luck.

Edit: Full disclosure: I'm not being paid by TO and in fact I spent nearly $500 pre-ordering MODE and buying SSD drives. To me, I'm not going to freak out over $200. If I don't want to spend that kind of money on something, I won't. In this case, being able to use a SATA SSD with the entire library on it hits my OCD quite nicely.

[maxtherabbit]

I was not accusing you of saying you didn’t give a fuck, if you had read my post properly before jumping in with the usual half baked response, you will see I was telling you I didn’t give a fuck, when you would say we are having a difficult time at the moment because we have had to move out here.

I actually read it the same way he did. A comma after "Todd" would have helped

[Flashman]

Here's my take on the griping going on here:

No matter WHAT happened in reality, some people in this thread have already formed a negative biased opinion about MODE and/or TO. There's NOTHING Todd or anyone else could possibly say to change your minds. So why even bother trying to answer your interrogative angry questions? No answer is going to make you suddenly change your stance.

I also noted there's even people actually turning pure speculation into fact (like BOM costs for example). You're just whipping yourselves up into a frenzy intentionally, when all you have to do is just not buy the product. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I wish you best of luck.

FirebrandX: a well known TO sympathiser and apologist.

In all honesty I’ve moved on and couldn’t care less anymore, however at the time myself hundreds of people were justifiably furious - our opinions are not biased, this actually happened - we received no explanation then and still haven’t now. I see nothing wrong with attempting to warn people against making the same mistake - this “forgive and forget” mentality with TO seems quite prevalent and I don’t see any justification for it at all, the release of the Mega SD wasn’t the only controversy with one of their products.

To make it fully clear I did eventually receive my Mega SD (with an additional cost of €55 before my country’s customs would release it) however due to a further error on the part of TO / the factory they used to make the product, it was not manufactured to the correct specifications and was missing a bevel which will reduce its lifespan. Some people also received earlier prototype models, rather than the final design.

These are the bare facts, not bias and not speculation.

[DoomsDave]

I ordered one. The idea of having an entire library on one drive without having to switch out media is a pretty big draw to me. Hoping for the best.

[FBX]

FirebrandX: a well known TO sympathiser and apologist.

That's the kind of response I expect from someone holding a pitchfork and torch.