ISO vid processor w/ saturation controls or CMS for OSSC 4x

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Paranoid_Andy
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ISO vid processor w/ saturation controls or CMS for OSSC 4x

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

*EDIT 4-29-2020*
What I'm looking for is a video processor that takes the output of the OSSC and adds the ability to change color saturation or has a CMS setup that also works with OSSC line 4x. I'll update the post here if I end up finding something that works.
*END EDIT*

Hi everyone.

I hope you're all doing well and getting by okay.

TLDR: I want a hardware solution that allows me to adjust/emphasize my retro video game colors without additional input delay.

First off, I'm a newbie to this tech so feel free to dumb things down for me and I won't be offended by any mistakes I may have made pointed out to me. Learning is one of my goals. My terminology is probably flawed as well but I think I'm able to convey my points.

So I have a retro gaming setup where I send my analog RGB signal through a scart cable into an OSSC that outputs HDMI that I then have connected to a HDMI to VGA adapter that goes to my PC CRT. My setup:
RGB Modded Retro Game Console -> Scart Cable -> OSSC -> HDMI Cable -> HDMI to VGA adapter -> PC CRT (ViewSonic P815)

What I'm looking for:
You know when you adjust the 'Color' setting on a TV or when you increase the 'Digital Vibrance' setting in the NVidia control panel how it like... saturates or emphasizes the colors. Blue is MORE blue, green is MORE green, etc. ? Well I want a hardware solution that goes somewhere in my chain to accomplish this but doesn't add any additional lag, if such a thing exists.

Every setting I can find on my monitor and the OSSC do not seem to have this functionality. I even looked into possibly adjusting pots inside the monitor but it's all maintained by a micro controller that I can't access without old tech repair equipment from ViewSonic.

A digital or analog solution is fine but I would think analog would be less expensive since that equipment has come down in price so much. I would also prefer if possible something that accepts scart or BNC4 if analog. HDMI or DVI would be fine too I think.

I had a look at the HDFury x4 but I'm not sure if the newer HDR settings on that would even apply to my PC CRT and if HDR would do what I want.

Another issue is that I'm not even sure what exactly I'm supposed to be searching for exactly. I have been browsing 'color grading', 'color correcting' and 'video processing' hardware. A lot of them seem to be multi-purpose but I don't know specifically what feature it needs to have that meets my requirements.

I would love some recommendations on what type of hardware you all think would work for this.

Here are the current ideas I had that maybe could accomplish this:
1. Get a hardware color corrector device that sits in between the game console and monitor that can enhance the colors. There seems to be a lot of them, but I don't know if they create some sort of a frame buffer when just changing/enhancing colors. If they don't then I would love to test this solution.
2. Get some sort of device that will interface with the monitor and allow me to access the service menu and increase the color.
3. Pipe the OSSC output into a capture card on my PC, then play the game on the viewer window of OBS or similar. (About 2-3 frames of lag though)
4. Get some sort of testing equipment or something that allows me to use DDC/CI to change the 'color' value of the monitor. This is possible via software through Windows as I was able to test this, but the settings only stick for when the monitor is hooked up to the PC. I guess either those settings are saved on the PC or the monitor sets it to one of its internal profiles that matches it to the EDID or something from the PC? What if I could spoof the EDID to make the monitor think it's still connected to the PC even when plugged into the OSSC so the 'color' setting is still set to max?

Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully this made sense.

Thank you for any and all help offered!
Last edited by Paranoid_Andy on Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Fudoh »

On video processors this is called CMS (color management system). You won't find a lag free solution, but some are low lag (like 0.5 frames) if used with progressive inputs signals. Lumagen Radiance for example.
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

Hey Fudoh, thanks for the reply.

Darn. I was worried I might get a response like that. That's unfortunate. I wish there was a way I could just go inside the monitor and boost the colors.

Well, 0.5 frames is certainly better than 2-3. The Lumagen Radiance is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I can afford. You seem to be very experienced from your posts and website. Do you happen to recall any other solutions that have low lag but may not be so expensive?

Also, thank you for the clarification about CMS. That will help me a lot when I'm looking around now. It's nice to have a proper name for what I'm trying to find.
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Fudoh
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Fudoh »

there were standalone CMS systems (like the eecolor LUT box), but these were very expensive as well.

I don't really recall if any of the pre-Radiance Lumagen units ever got CMS features other they greyscale adjustment. On the DVDO side the iScan Duo was the only machine to ever see a CMS. Radiance units tend to go for around $300 if they start low on ebay. I don't think you'll find any other way of adding a full CMS to your processing chain.

I also really don't know how the whole color adjustment translated to what you'd eventually see on a a CRT. After all the RGB colors on a CRT are defined by the voltage levels.

I would really try to get a cheap HDMI to VGA converter first. You can use this together with a HDMI splitter on your PC's output to get an idea first on how digital saturation control affects what you might eventually see on your CRT.
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

I have actually done that. I have a few monitors and HDMI to VGA converters. Simple but they seem pretty effective. When I apply digital vibrance to the monitor it looks great, imo anyway.

I'll hold off on any of those expensive devices for now. Especially with money being so tight. Thank you for the suggestions.

I have been doing some more extensive testing and tweaking and I seem to have been able to reduce the lag to roughly 1 frame or a little less. I'm having some screen tearing issues or something that seems like screen tearing. It's like a wavy line that goes over the screen at times and seems to slowly move upwards. So I'm going to see if I can fix that and maybe bring the lag down even more. It's been a lot of work and many different tests but the results so far have been awesome. I will update here if I can manage to make more progress with it.
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

Unfortunately no major progress with the PC capture side of things however I came across the Silicon Image DVDO Scan Pro MM503A today. I noticed it has a saturation dial on it.
I'm wondering, wouldn't this accomplish what I'm trying to do? I would just put it between the game console and the OSSC.

I wouldn't want this exact device because I would rather stay with scart, BNC or something like that, but this seems to be along the lines of what I'm looking for.

Does anybody know if this would work? Also does anyone know of any other devices that do this that have other connection types?
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Fudoh »

Yes, but a) the saturation is (as far as I recall) limited in range, so maybe you can't go as high as you want and b) this inputs are 15khz only and it performs deinterlacing at a lag of > 2 frames.
Also does anyone know of any other devices that do this that have other connection types?
almost every video processor does. You just need one for the type of signal you want to use (specify and I'll help) and you need to chose one that does this with little lag.
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

Hey Fudoh,

Thank you for the fast reply.

As for "limited in range"; I think it will be satisfactory? I'm looking to increase saturation by maybe ~10-25%.

That's interesting information. I am planning to use this for progressive signals only. Pretty much just 240p, (NES, SNES, MD, PCE, Saturn, PS1, SGFX) and a few arcade games (CPS1, CPS2, F3, NeoGeo, Shadow Force, Guardians and Zero Team). I would prefer scart, BNC, VGA, HDMI or DVI for the hookups depending on if it's analog or digital.

If analog is just too problematic, then I can try to spend more money and get a CMS but I would really rather not spend a lot if I can do the same thing for cheaper. Like many others, money is pretty tight for me lately.

I am happy to do research and testing etc. and I have been. It's just been difficult to know exactly what I need to do and how to do it. I have been working on this literally every day for most of the day since my last post just trying to find a solution. It's that important to me. So it's always nice when other people are able to offer help as well. Thank you for that.

*Edit* All the consoles are modded to output RGB by the way.
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Fudoh
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Fudoh »

But you target device is a 31khz CRT, right ?

From a lag perspective you're better off with an OSSC in the chain.

For example:

source > OSSC > video processor with color controls > monitor

The laggy part of the processing is the initial doubling. This way you pass this off to the OSSC. It's easy to find a low lag processor for the 2nd part. Just to give you an example: the first generation of DVDO processors (iScan HD+ for example) had rather high processing lag for 15khz sources, but for progressive input signals (31khz and higher) the lag is considerably lower.

Especially if you already have an OSSC, there are lots of processors you can try for the 2nd part. And enough that are available at a budget. You just need to take the time to check inputs/outputs and to have a look in the manual to see if saturation controls are available.
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by orange808 »

For a second machine (after the OSSC), you might look into video processors aimed at the projector market. That's where you'll find low latency color and gamma correction options designed for simulators and live exhibits.
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

@Fudoh
Yes I have an OSSC. Yes it is a 31KHz monitor.
My current setup is Console -> OSSC -> HDMI to VGA Adapter -> ViewSonic P815 31KHz Monitor

I will do my best to find a low lag solution with CMS. Maybe I can find a list of video processors and the amount of lag they introduce.

@Orange808
Hi Orange.
That sounds like a great idea. I hadn't considered that. Do you happen to know of any yourself that you have had experience with? I will definitely include that in my searches and see what I can find.

It seems like information on what devices have CMS and low lag is a tricky thing to deal with. I'm not even sure of all the brands exist that make video processors. I think finding the CMS will just come down to looking at each devices specs like Fudoh said. As for lag though, I think the projector idea is currently the best approach I know of at the moment. I'll see if I can find any "low lag processor" threads.

In case anyone in the future is interested, here are brands that I think or that I know that make devices for digital video processing:
DVDO - iScan series
TransForm N Multimedia
RGBLink
Tessera
Murideo
RGB Spectrum
Lumagen

I will add more info to this post if I find anything else useful for anybody else to use.

Thanks Fudoh and Orange808 for the help. I really appreciate it. This is something I want very much and hope to get it working because other than my color issue, playing on the PC CRT is just awesome.
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by orange808 »

Now that I think about it more, you probably want to chain a DVDO in there. My projector warp/edge blending/gamma/color machines all have spotty compatibility with the OSSC. Although, I think Fudoh might have one or two machines I haven't tried.

For color options, the most robust machines I have seen are primarily designed for edge blending, so that's the category of machines you might be interested in.

There are edge blending/warp machines that use a smart line buffer to minimize latency. Even with a DVDO and an edge blender, you can still come in below a frame of lag.

You might also look into output signals. I've never fed a edge blend machine into a CRT glass tube monitor or TV at 480p.
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

It seems there are 2 or 3 main video processor lines by DVDO, at least on the used market. Those that start with VP and those that start with MM and maybe just a plain HD version. So here is what I found:

VP30:
https://www.cs1.net/products/dvdo/VP30.htm
This one seems like it has what I want but hard to say at the same time in terms of latency. It mentions about a game mode for low latency, but up to 3 frames of lag in another spot above it. I'm not sure if that's just for interlaced signals and not progressive. It also has edge processing like you mentioned Orange. Finally it seems to support 1280x960 since I like to use 4x scaling on the OSSC.

The DVDO VP50 and VP50 Pro seem to be upgraded in certain ways but since all I want is just saturation controls I'm not sure if they are worth going for.

iScanHD:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/47211 ... tml?page=2
Seems to have saturation but I'm not sure if it supports 1280x960.

MM601:
http://www.avdeals.com/videoprocessor/mm601.htm
Seems to be the same as the iScanHD. I'm not sure if it will handle 1280x960. Seems the MM602 and 603 just have more features.

At this point it seems like the VP30 is what I need. Unless the VP50 or VP50 Pro has something better I am not aware of. Also I saw a post from one person claiming they use a VP30 with their OSSC so that's good to hear. Darn thing seems pricey but maybe I can figure something out.

I welcome any thoughts on this.
strayan
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by strayan »

Paranoid_Andy wrote: At this point it seems like the VP30 is what I need. Unless the VP50 or VP50 Pro has something better I am not aware of. Also I saw a post from one person claiming they use a VP30 with their OSSC so that's good to hear. Darn thing seems pricey but maybe I can figure something out.
I was under the impression that the VP30 and VP50/Pro aren't compatible with the line x4 1280x960 output from the OSSC, just the OSSC line double 240p mode. What exactly is the advantage of line x4 if you are using a CRT anyway?
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

strayan wrote:
Paranoid_Andy wrote: At this point it seems like the VP30 is what I need. Unless the VP50 or VP50 Pro has something better I am not aware of. Also I saw a post from one person claiming they use a VP30 with their OSSC so that's good to hear. Darn thing seems pricey but maybe I can figure something out.
I was under the impression that the VP30 and VP50/Pro aren't compatible with the line x4 1280x960 output from the OSSC, just the OSSC line double 240p mode. What exactly is the advantage of line x4 if you are using a CRT anyway?
Hello Strayan,

Oh boy, that would be unfortunate if that's true.

The reason why I prefer line 4x is because of how it looks on my monitor specifically. The representation of the colored areas vs the darkness of the scan lines is balanced in such a way that I really prefer it over the others. Here are some pictures I took showing the different multipliers if you're interested. The first image is to show which multiplier is being used. The rest of the images are lined up the same way.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Paranoid_Andy
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Re: ISO lag free analog or digital color corrector hardware.

Post by Paranoid_Andy »

I'm finding information that does state that line 4x does indeed work with the VP30, VP50 and VP50 Pro but you have to run it in pass-through mode. From the manufacturers website it claims that certain features are unavailable in pass-through mode.

Does anybody happen to know if you can still adjust the image saturation in pass-through mode on any of the VP series?

*EDIT* I got a response from a nice fella with a VP30 that tested it out and said that the color controls are greyed out when running pass-through. What a bummer! Guess I'll have to keep looking.
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