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 Post subject: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:47 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
I recently acquired an Ikegami HTM-2070R that I'm having sync issues with (Im having the same issues on a recently acquired HTM-2050R as well) and wanted to see if anyone else had the same issues. Basically my SMS and SuperGrafx suffer from flagging, and my NES (RGB modded) and SNES both have what I'd call jitter on the top few scanlines, with the NES being worse. I had read through a similar topic on this in the thread below, but none of the proposed solutions seem to work for me. It seems others had success using an Extron RGB 160, so I bought one off eBay to test, but not only does it work, it breaks other working systems and causes flagging itself! I've never seen this from an RGB device and I have a 203 as well that does the same thing. It's truly odd and has me baffled. Additionally, I just ordered a new gscartsw thinking that the sync regeneration and the SMS fix might work, and while the SMS fix does indeed work specifically for SMS, I still have flagging on the SuperGrafx, although it's less pronounced. The jitter on the NES and SNES are still present though unfortunately. Lastly I tried using my RetroTINK RGB-->Component transcoder. That actually cleared up the SMS picture, but not so for the SuperGrafx.

So all that said, I obviously want to find a fix here, but what has me truly baffled is why the Extron RGB interfaces are actually causing flagging. If it were only happening on the 2070R I might not think as much of it, but others claim to have used them to clear up the same issues on their 2050R, yet when using on my 2050R it has the opposite effect. Really hoping someone here has some ideas because I'm not sure what else I can try. I'd been looking for this particular monitor for a long time since I love the look (both the picture and the design in general) of the Ikegamis and it would break my heart to not get this working on all my systems.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60403


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:35 am 



Joined: 20 Oct 2016
Posts: 36
I was going to suggest checking that thread by SamIAm. As far as I know he's the go-to Ikegami guy (and an all around nice guy!).
The issue is the same for me and I have just resigned to using my 1454Q for SFC.
Maybe shoot him a private message and see if he's got any new info.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:25 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Man, I'd sure love to see a 2070 for myself. Is there an apparent difference in the picture to you between that and the 2050?

A few things come to mind reading your post:

1. On your 2070, remove the left side panel (left when facing the screen) and eyeball the board underneath to look for a chip labelled UPC1883. It's probably in the upper right. In the 2050, that is the heart of the whole deflection system. If it's in the 2070, we can assume the same solutions apply. If it's not, you're going to be in uncharted territory there.

2. Are you using an Extron 160xi? Note the "xi" part. If you are, make sure the "serr remove" DIP switch is enabled (can't remember if that's exactly what it's called). IIRC, all the other switches should be disabled. I have never tested this with SMS, but it works with all PCE variants. Other Extron models that I tried did not help at all.

3. You're going to have to do the dejitter mod to get rid of the jitter in NES and SNES. No other way around it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:53 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
SamIAm wrote:
Man, I'd sure love to see a 2070 for myself. Is there an apparent difference in the picture to you between that and the 2050?

A few things come to mind reading your post:

1. On your 2070, remove the left side panel (left when facing the screen) and eyeball the board underneath to look for a chip labelled UPC1883. It's probably in the upper right. In the 2050, that is the heart of the whole deflection system. If it's in the 2070, we can assume the same solutions apply. If it's not, you're going to be in uncharted territory there.

2. Are you using an Extron 160xi? Note the "xi" part. If you are, make sure the "serr remove" DIP switch is enabled (can't remember if that's exactly what it's called). IIRC, all the other switches should be disabled. I have never tested this with SMS, but it works with all PCE variants. Other Extron models that I tried did not help at all.

3. You're going to have to do the dejitter mod to get rid of the jitter in NES and SNES. No other way around it.


1. It looks like I have something similar....it is a C1883CT. See image below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-25TyyRWTSespCYknODojloqDOwQBiKG

2. Yes, I have the Extron 160xi and I've toggled the serr switch both ways with no success. I also have an RGB 203 Rxi and get the same thing.

3. I had heard about the dejitter mod but hadn't put 2 and 2 together until now, probably because I have no issues on my BVM or my consumer set. Thanks for the recommendation though, I'll def want to take a look. If I can get that fixed for this monitor then the only problem I would have left is with SuperGrafx (at least from what I've tested....I need to test my Omega MVS and Saturn still....I'm less hopeful about the MVS though...), which while I would really like to have working, wouldn't be the end of the world I guess.

As for the picture quality on the 2070 vs the 2050? I've not really done too much head to head, but I can say that the 2070 looks really good. But then so too does my 2050, which is in excellent condition (prob better than the 2070) and has the blackout screen. In fact, I might have considered keeping that instead, but alas it does not have the board for 480p :(


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:00 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
So btw...regarding the dejitter mod, have you done this yourself and it's fixed the same issue I describe on your own HTM?


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:08 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
So btw...regarding the dejitter mod, have you done this yourself and it's fixed the same issue I describe on your own HTM?


No, but I'll eat my hat if it doesn't.

Interestingly, when the SNES is running in interlace mode, it doesn't produce that one short scanline every other frame, and the jitter disappears. Only a very small number of games use this mode at all, but if you try any of them, you'll see that the image is totally stable on the HTMs.

Quote:
1. It looks like I have something similar....it is a C1883CT. See image below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-25Ty ... oqDOwQBiKG


Thanks for the pic! That's indeed the same chip. It looks like there are other differences in the board, but they're probably not too consequential for our particular concerns.

Quote:
2. Yes, I have the Extron 160xi and I've toggled the serr switch both ways with no success. I also have an RGB 203 Rxi and get the same thing.


I dunno, man, that's pretty weird. It works for me, and I know it's worked for a couple of others. I can check my DIP switches later.

Where are you connecting sync on the Extron? I am stripping sync off composite video with an LM1881 and feeding it to the Extron's green signal input. I don't remember why I went with this, but it could be that connecting sync to the Extron's H-sync input didn't work.

Quote:
3. I had heard about the dejitter mod but hadn't put 2 and 2 together until now, probably because I have no issues on my BVM or my consumer set. Thanks for the recommendation though, I'll def want to take a look. If I can get that fixed for this monitor then the only problem I would have left is with SuperGrafx (at least from what I've tested....I need to test my Omega MVS and Saturn still....I'm less hopeful about the MVS though...), which while I would really like to have working, wouldn't be the end of the world I guess.


My Omega MVS didn't have any trouble. Neither did my CD-Z, or my Saturn.

Quote:
As for the picture quality on the 2070 vs the 2050? I've not really done too much head to head, but I can say that the 2070 looks really good. But then so too does my 2050, which is in excellent condition (prob better than the 2070) and has the blackout screen. In fact, I might have considered keeping that instead, but alas it does not have the board for 480p :(


I have three 2050s, and none of them have the 480p switch. I'm 99% certain that the electronics can deal with 480p just fine but that it's being gated by the system OS. After all, 480p is 31kHz and 1080i is 33kHz. If I had more time, I'd try to come up with some kind of hack to get around this, but alas...


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:55 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
No, but I'll eat my hat if it doesn't.

Interestingly, when the SNES is running in interlace mode, it doesn't produce that one short scanline every other frame, and the jitter disappears. Only a very small number of games use this mode at all, but if you try any of them, you'll see that the image is totally stable on the HTMs.


I think I may try it out for my NES since it's a lot worse. It's a good couple inches at the top, whereas the SNES it's only a couple lines and not as much of a hindrance. Although I am wondering, why have you not done this mod if you believe it will work?

Quote:
I dunno, man, that's pretty weird. It works for me, and I know it's worked for a couple of others. I can check my DIP switches later.

Where are you connecting sync on the Extron? I am stripping sync off composite video with an LM1881 and feeding it to the Extron's green signal input. I don't remember why I went with this, but it could be that connecting sync to the Extron's H-sync input didn't work.


I am connecting my systems to a gscartsw v3.4 using RGBS and into the Extron using a VGA cable via the switches dsub output. This works fine for any other monitor I've had need to use it for, including my Ikegami TM20-80RH. It is only with the HTM models that I have issues with the RGB units actually causing flagging instead of removing it. Also, I don't understand how you're connecting....the only inputs these RGB units have are dsub connections. There is no separate RGBHV inputs, only outputs.

Quote:
Quote:
My Omega MVS didn't have any trouble. Neither did my CD-Z, or my Saturn.


This is good to know!

Quote:
I have three 2050s, and none of them have the 480p switch. I'm 99% certain that the electronics can deal with 480p just fine but that it's being gated by the system OS. After all, 480p is 31kHz and 1080i is 33kHz. If I had more time, I'd try to come up with some kind of hack to get around this, but alas...


Interestingly my TM20-80RH has the board with the 480p dipswitch options so I tried it in my HTM-2050R. It didn't work and the display was all messed up so I quickly turned it off. However, I remember reading on the Reddit article out there about enabling 480p on these that someone spoke to an Ikegami tech and they suggested sending it in to them to change out an eprom if I recall and to have it calibrated. I wonder if switching the eprom between the two boards might work, but I really don't want to break anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:12 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
I think I may try it out for my NES since it's a lot worse. It's a good couple inches at the top, whereas the SNES it's only a couple lines and not as much of a hindrance. Although I am wondering, why have you not done this mod if you believe it will work?


It's in the cue, but it's a low priority for me since I've got other monitors that don't have this problem.

Quote:
I am connecting my systems to a gscartsw v3.4 using RGBS and into the Extron using a VGA cable via the switches dsub output. This works fine for any other monitor I've had need to use it for, including my Ikegami TM20-80RH. It is only with the HTM models that I have issues with the RGB units actually causing flagging instead of removing it. Also, I don't understand how you're connecting....the only inputs these RGB units have are dsub connections. There is no separate RGBHV inputs, only outputs.


OK, a few things:

1. I checked, and indeed the SERR switch is the only one I have enabled on my 160xi. From the other thread, here is a shot of the inside of this 160xi that shows all of the internal jumper positions:

Spoiler: show
Image



2. I remember why I put sync on the green input. I didn't want to pass the video itself through the unit just out of principle: the fewer the connections and the shorter the cabling, the better the transmission of the video in general. But the Extron won't actually work unless it's detecting video, so I put sync (with a series resistor to adjust the voltage) on green so that the system thinks it's seeing sync-on-green with no red or blue.

3. One more shot from the other thread. You can see how I actually installed an LM1881 internally and ran the output of that to the green input on the main board, removing the ribbon cable to the dsub connector.

Spoiler: show
Image



4. If you have any means to test the Extron without the gscartsw, or perhaps switching their positions in the processing chain, that's the next thing I'd try.

Quote:
Interestingly my TM20-80RH has the board with the 480p dipswitch options so I tried it in my HTM-2050R. It didn't work and the display was all messed up so I quickly turned it off. However, I remember reading on the Reddit article out there about enabling 480p on these that someone spoke to an Ikegami tech and they suggested sending it in to them to change out an eprom if I recall and to have it calibrated. I wonder if switching the eprom between the two boards might work, but I really don't want to break anything.


Really? I don't recall ever seeing anything about an eprom switch myself. If you have a link, I'd love to see it.

I suspect that if you could feed sync directly to the deflection board itself, you'd likely get around the issue. You'd only have to make sure that the unit is switched into HDTV mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:26 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
1. I checked, and indeed the SERR switch is the only one I have enabled on my 160xi. From the other thread, here is a shot of the inside of this 160xi that shows all of the internal jumper positions:


Thanks, I'll check mine to see if the jumpers are setup the same way.

Quote:
2. I remember why I put sync on the green input. I didn't want to pass the video itself through the unit just out of principle: the fewer the connections and the shorter the cabling, the better the transmission of the video in general. But the Extron won't actually work unless it's detecting video, so I put sync (with a series resistor to adjust the voltage) on green so that the system thinks it's seeing sync-on-green with no red or blue.

3. One more shot from the other thread. You can see how I actually installed an LM1881 internally and ran the output of that to the green input on the main board, removing the ribbon cable to the dsub connector.


You'll have to forgive my ignorance here, but I still don't understand what you're doing and why. The only input on these things is through the dsub connector so I don't understand how you're connecting a signal to it.

Quote:
4. If you have any means to test the Extron without the gscartsw, or perhaps switching their positions in the processing chain, that's the next thing I'd try.


Because the inputs on these are dsub connectors, using the gscartsw is the easiest and really only method I have of getting an RGB signal into it. I don't have any other way of getting scart to a dsub connector. Considering the amount of us using these Extron RGB units for whatever purpose, I'm surprised the cable manufacturers don't make a cable, but alas.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:50 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
You'll have to forgive my ignorance here, but I still don't understand what you're doing and why. The only input on these things is through the dsub connector so I don't understand how you're connecting a signal to it.


My bad, I left out one thing. I took a cheap yellow-plug RCA cable, cut it in half, and ran the wire through the vent of the Extron and soldered it (signal and ground) to the little PCB I added with the LM1881. Can you see it coming through in the top left of the pic? The PCB with the LM1881 itself is wrapped up in black electrical tape. This is how I get composite video into the unit. The output of the LM1881 is then going directly to the main PCB of the Extron via the black and grey wires you see at the bottom of the pic.

The red and black wires are getting 5V for the LM1881 directly from the Extron's power supply, by the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:04 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
My bad, I left out one thing. I took a cheap yellow-plug RCA cable, cut it in half, and ran the wire through the vent of the Extron and soldered it (signal and ground) to the little PCB I added with the LM1881. Can you see it coming through in the top left of the pic? The PCB with the LM1881 itself is wrapped up in black electrical tape. This is how I get composite video into the unit. The output of the LM1881 is then going directly to the main PCB of the Extron via the black and grey wires you see at the bottom of the pic.

The red and black wires are getting 5V for the LM1881 directly from the Extron's power supply, by the way.


Ok, so I think I kinda understand what you're doing, but if this is the only way I can get my SuperGrafx to work on this thing then I'll just as soon skip it altogether. Not only do I not have the skills to do this, but my setup (for RGB) is all systems --> gscartsw --> extron crosspoint --> BVM, Ikegami, Consumer set. I was hoping that just using the 160xi as it was intended would work so that I could just put it between the gscart and the crosspoint. I actually also wanted to use it in this manner so I could control the position of the picture on my consumer set since systems like the SuperGrafx (ironically) often need the screen shifted.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:08 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Having said all that though, I am still baffled as to why using the Extron RGB is actually breaking my picture on the HTM. Since it actually breaks everything and causes flagging on the HTM I can't put it in front of my crosspoint like I wanted so I could control the screen position on my consumer set. I guess I can get around it since the gscart has two outputs and I can run one straight into the crosspoint and one through the RGB interface, but I'm running out of inputs there as it is. Bottom line, it makes no sense that it's doing what it's doing and it kinda pisses me off!


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:59 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
Having said all that though, I am still baffled as to why using the Extron RGB is actually breaking my picture on the HTM. Since it actually breaks everything and causes flagging on the HTM I can't put it in front of my crosspoint like I wanted so I could control the screen position on my consumer set. I guess I can get around it since the gscart has two outputs and I can run one straight into the crosspoint and one through the RGB interface, but I'm running out of inputs there as it is. Bottom line, it makes no sense that it's doing what it's doing and it kinda pisses me off!


I'd guess it has something to do with the gscartsw. I'm not very familiar with that device, though, so I could be wrong.

I actually made all of my own BNC cables for my systems by hacking up a 50m VGA cable. It wasn't particularly hard, just time-consuming. I'd recommend it if you're using a crosspoint, unless you absolutely need the extra inputs via the gscartsw.

My setup simply goes all systems -> matrix switch -> various monitors, and the 160xi sits exclusively between my SGX and the matrix switch. I bet that would work for you if you were willing to do some cable hacking, as long as the Extron comes before the gscartsw.

The real best option for rectifying PCE sync, however, is to take the internal H/V sync signals combine them using something else: either an Extron, which I was able to do successfully at one time, or a custom circuit, which is another thing in my cue.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:34 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
I'd guess it has something to do with the gscartsw. I'm not very familiar with that device, though, so I could be wrong.


I have an Analogue Nt Mini so I can try hooking that (the RGB output on that goes through a dsub connector, so I should be able to just use a vga cable to connect it) directly to the RGB interface and to my monitor to see what happens. I really don't think it has anything to do with the gscartsw. If anything the gscartsw should be cleaning up the sync if there were any issues. I'll report back what happens.

Quote:
The real best option for rectifying PCE sync, however, is to take the internal H/V sync signals combine them using something else: either an Extron, which I was able to do successfully at one time, or a custom circuit, which is another thing in my cue.


I have no idea how one would go about doing this, and certainly I wouldn't be able to. I was hoping that I wasn't going to have issues though because I'm getting the RGB signal from an SSDS3 hooked up to my SuperGrafx. But I guess the issue that plagues these systems is still there somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:41 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
I'd recommend it if you're using a crosspoint, unless you absolutely need the extra inputs via the gscartsw.


On a side note, my original vision for my setup was just going to consist of my D32 and everything hooked into that. That is why I bought the gscartsw. As time went on though I started collecting monitors too :lol:. That was when I decided to bring the crosspoint into the mix. Now I suppose I could go straight crosspoint (but I'll need to buy a new one of those as well because my current 12x8 couldn't handle everything), but that would require getting all new cables and getting rid of all my existing scart cables and switches.

Regardless, even if I did that, I would still have this issue with the SuperGrafx, so for the moment I'm fine with my setup and see no reason it shouldn't work.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:31 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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(EDIT: The following paragraph is inaccurate!) You're using an SSD3? That changes everything. The SSD3 generates its own sync based on the PCE's internal H/V signals, which happen to be available at the expansion port. The solution with the Extron 160xi has been shown to work only with the PCE's own composite sync, whether that's stripped from composite video or taken from the C-sync pin of the expansion port or the HuC6260 chip. The SSD3's sync is an entirely different beast, and not owning an SSD3 myself, I can't tell you anything about what solutions might work for it.

You're not going to be able to eliminate the gscartsw as the source of the problem unless you test your Supergrafx on the monitor with the gscartsw removed from the processing chain. Like I said, I don't know much about that device, but if it applies any processing to the sync signal, it could be screwing it up somehow.

I'm sorry that there don't seem to be any quick-fixes here, but it looks to me like if you want to get your Supergrafx to display on your HTM monitors, you need to do some methodical experimenting. After all, you might literally be the only person in the entire world with this SSD3 -> gscartsw -> HTM monitor combination.

Good luck!


Last edited by SamIAm on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:49 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
SamIAm wrote:
You're using an SSD3? That changes everything. The SSD3 generates its own sync based on the PCE's internal H/V signals, which happen to be available at the expansion port. The solution with the Extron 160xi has been shown to work only with the PCE's own composite sync, whether that's stripped from composite video or taken from the C-sync pin of the expansion port or the HuC6260 chip. The SSD3's sync is an entirely different beast, and not owning an SSD3 myself, I can't tell you anything about what solutions might work for it.

You're not going to be able to eliminate the gscartsw as the source of the problem unless you test your Supergrafx on the monitor with the gscartsw removed from the processing chain. Like I said, I don't know much about that device, but if it applies any processing to the sync signal, it could be screwing it up somehow.

I'm sorry that there don't seem to be any quick-fixes here, but it looks to me like if you want to get your Supergrafx to display on your HTM monitors, you need to do some methodical experimenting. After all, you might literally be the only person in the entire world with this SSD3 -> gscartsw -> HTM monitor combination.

Good luck!


So I tried connecting the SuperGrafx to the monitor directly and the flagging is even worse. The gscartsw (the newest version anyway) has a switch that fixes SMS compatibility, and when used with the SuperGrafx it cuts it about in half. It actually works for the SMS on this monitor as well, whereas without it, the flagging would be present, although it's not as bad as the SuperGrafx. So point is, the gscartsw is doing nothing but helping in this regard.

Also, I tried hooking my Nt Mini (since it's the only thing that has an output that I could use with an RGB interface) up to the RGB 160xi and into the monitor. It won't sync at all. Screen just keeps rolling. Additionally, I checked the jumpers inside my 160xi and they're set the same as yours. So I dunno what else to say. I have no idea how these RGB units work for you and others, but completely breaks anything for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:25 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
So I tried connecting the SuperGrafx to the monitor directly and the flagging is even worse. The gscartsw (the newest version anyway) has a switch that fixes SMS compatibility, and when used with the SuperGrafx it cuts it about in half. It actually works for the SMS on this monitor as well, whereas without it, the flagging would be present, although it's not as bad as the SuperGrafx. So point is, the gscartsw is doing nothing but helping in this regard.

Also, I tried hooking my Nt Mini (since it's the only thing that has an output that I could use with an RGB interface) up to the RGB 160xi and into the monitor. It won't sync at all. Screen just keeps rolling. Additionally, I checked the jumpers inside my 160xi and they're set the same as yours. So I dunno what else to say. I have no idea how these RGB units work for you and others, but completely breaks anything for me.


As long as the gscartsw does something to the sync signal, I would leave it out during testing until you get a stable picture. Otherwise, it just adds another variable. I think it's very unlikely that it would prove to actually be a necessary part of the puzzle.

Without the gscartsw, I can imagine the following pipelines:

1. SSD3 C-sync -> HTM-2070
2. SSD3 C-sync -> Extron 160xi -> HTM-2070
3. Supergrafx composite video -> LM1881 -> Extron 160xi -> HTM-2070
4. Supergrafx composite video -> HTM-2070

In your last experiment, did you try #1, #2, or both?

I would actually be kind of shocked if #1 didn't work. Terraonion said specifically that the SSD3 generates a new C-sync signal from the PCE's internal H/V signals, and those are known not to have any imperfections (unlike the internal C-sync signal). If that still doesn't work on your monitor, that would mean that they screwed up the way they combined them. I hope they didn't do anything dumb like just putting the signals straight through an XNOR logic gate, because would result in an extra horizontal pulse being generated.

I have #3, and it works fine. I am also confident that #4 will not work.

I don't know about the situation with the Nt Mini and the Extron. A couple things to check:
1. Are you sure you're taking the C-sync output from the 160xi?
2. Are you sure all of your DIP switches are set properly?
3. Do you see the 160xi's indicator light go green when the Nt Mini comes on?
4. Are you sure the Nt Mini's output is putting the proper sync on the proper lines?
5. You say the screen just keeps rolling...does that mean you're actually getting horizontal sync and just not vertical sync? Is it rolling straight up and down, or diagonally?


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:48 am 


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Just so you are aware, the ssds3 does not generate its own sync signal. I helped design the RGB circuit and it uses the consoles csync line buffered through a ths7374.
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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:10 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
As long as the gscartsw does something to the sync signal, I would leave it out during testing until you get a stable picture. Otherwise, it just adds another variable. I think it's very unlikely that it would prove to actually be a necessary part of the puzzle.


So couple things. The gscartsw does a couple things, but they can both be toggled on/off via dipswitch. First is sync regeneration, which according to the creator does the following: "Sync signal is detected by Altera and level is automatically set to compatible, everything else is stripped, like LM1881/EL1883 IC but much faster, you won’t see a big image shift anymore, something very visible when LM1881/EL1883 is used." The second thing it can do is correct the flagging an SMS would normally produce. That all said, I've tried it in all possible combinations and none work. Just straight pass through there is severe flagging. With sync regeneration on, same thing. With the SMS correction on, the flagging is reduced by roughly half, but still unplayable. So TL:DR, the gscartsw is not the problem here, as is also confirmed by my other observations below.

Quote:
1. SSD3 C-sync -> HTM-2070
2. SSD3 C-sync -> Extron 160xi -> HTM-2070
3. Supergrafx composite video -> LM1881 -> Extron 160xi -> HTM-2070
4. Supergrafx composite video -> HTM-2070

In your last experiment, did you try #1, #2, or both?


1. I tried this as outlined in my previous post and it produces the same severe flagging as through the gscartsw.
2. I have no way of getting scart from the SSDS3 to a dsub connection and into the Extron, so I can't test this. However, I have an older gscartsw (v3.4) as well, and that one has a scart and a dsub connection out. So I can run the SSDS3 RGBS --> gscartsw --> Extron 160xi --> HTM-2070R. I did that the other day and it still had the flagging. Can't recall the severity, but it was unplayable nevertheless.
3. I have no way of doing this as I simply lack the skills/knowledge.
4. I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but I tried this and got the same flagging I got from the SSDS3 straight into the monitor. I'm not sure if this would be expected or not.

One other thing I'll mention is that my SSDS3 is one of the first revisions where they had issues with the RGB signal, however, I had the Voultar board installed that was supposed to fix any (known) issues.

Quote:
I don't know about the situation with the Nt Mini and the Extron. A couple things to check:
1. Are you sure you're taking the C-sync output from the 160xi?
2. Are you sure all of your DIP switches are set properly?
3. Do you see the 160xi's indicator light go green when the Nt Mini comes on?
4. Are you sure the Nt Mini's output is putting the proper sync on the proper lines?
5. You say the screen just keeps rolling...does that mean you're actually getting horizontal sync and just not vertical sync? Is it rolling straight up and down, or diagonally?


I'd have to go hook it up again to confirm all these things, but I can say that I am using csync from the 160xi and the dip switches were set correctly, although I did try all different combinations regardless. The only reason I was even testing this though was because the 160xi (and the 203 Rxi for that matter) was causing flagging on otherwise working systems, but in order for me to get anything into the 160xi I needed to go through the gscartsw first. This was just to rule that out as a possible cause, but as I explained above, it is very unlikely the gscart (either of them) is causing the issue. I can run working systems (like a Genesis for instance) through the gscartsw and into the monitor without issue.

That said, I had one other thought to try, and that is running my Sencore (test pattern generator) into the 160xi and then into the monitor. If I have issues with that as well, then I think it's pretty definitive that the 160xi is causing some sort of issues and that it won't be of any help to me. I do wonder though if maybe getting a scart cable that is composite video sync might give me better results with the SSDS3 given how you are getting your PCE to work?


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:12 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Just so you are aware, the ssds3 does not generate its own sync signal. I helped design the RGB circuit and it uses the consoles csync line buffered through a ths7374.


So if SamIAm is having success with his PCE by stripping sync off of composite video, might I also have success just using a composite video sync scart instead of the csync scart I already have?


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:19 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Just so you are aware, the ssds3 does not generate its own sync signal. I helped design the RGB circuit and it uses the consoles csync line buffered through a ths7374.


Really? I could swear I read from an official source that it created its own sync. Well, I apologize for spreading incorrect information.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:44 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Just so you are aware, the ssds3 does not generate its own sync signal. I helped design the RGB circuit and it uses the consoles csync line buffered through a ths7374.


So if SamIAm is having success with his PCE by stripping sync off of composite video, might I also have success just using a composite video sync scart instead of the csync scart I already have?


If the SSD3 is just using C-sync straight from the console, then that would be identical to the sync stripped off of composite video.

I'm really thrown to learn that the SSD3 is just using PCE C-sync. If that going into the Extron doesn't work, I'm not really sure what to do. The only critical difference between my setup and yours, then, is that I'm putting C-Sync onto the green input of the 160xi so that it thinks it's sync-on-green.

In an earlier post, I asked about whether your Nt Mini had straight up-and-down rolling or diagonal rolling. If it is straight up-and-down, then what it might mean is that the 160xi is detecting that something is connected to the V-sync input of the d-sub connector, and it's trying to process your C-sync as H-sync only. C-sync from the Nt Mini and/or the gscartsw is being sent over the wire that normally corresponds to H-sync, right? If so, this would be logical.

If I were you, and if the above is all accurate, the next thing i would do would be to pick up any old VGA cable I could find, cut it in half, and splice the H-sync wire from one of the halves with the Green wire from the other (don't forget to also make a ground line). You want to take C-sync from the gscartsw and put it into the 160xi's green input, with all other connections being open. If you feel like trying this, ask around beforehand to see what the voltage level of the gscartsw's C-sync output is, because it's probably a bad idea to put 5V TTL on that green input. A simple resistor in series will bring that down to a safe level.

PS: I'd still leave the gscartsw out of the pipeline to the greatest extent possible while testing, but if it's the only way you can make certain connections, go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:09 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
If the SSD3 is just using C-sync straight from the console, then that would be identical to the sync stripped off of composite video.

I'm really thrown to learn that the SSD3 is just using PCE C-sync. If that going into the Extron doesn't work, I'm not really sure what to do. The only critical difference between my setup and yours, then, is that I'm putting C-Sync onto the green input of the 160xi so that it thinks it's sync-on-green.


You may have mentioned this earlier, but are you using a SuperGrafx as well, or just a standard PCE? Not sure if theres a difference regarding the sync, but figured I'd ask. Also, does just standard old composite work for you, or did that give you flagging as well?

Quote:
In an earlier post, I asked about whether your Nt Mini had straight up-and-down rolling or diagonal rolling. If it is straight up-and-down, then what it might mean is that the 160xi is detecting that something is connected to the V-sync input of the d-sub connector, and it's trying to process your C-sync as H-sync only. C-sync from the Nt Mini and/or the gscartsw is being sent over the wire that normally corresponds to H-sync, right? If so, this would be logical.


Honestly, it was kinda diagonal rolling if I recall, but I'd have to hook it up again to be sure. That said, I know that the suggested RGB cable for it is the monoprice dsub to 5 BNC for whatever reason. Since you just use the one sync (can't recall if it's H or V) as the sync line I thought to switch the output on the 160xi from S, to H and then to V, but all produced the same image. Also, the Nt Mini does sync on green, so I tried that as well, but again the same thing.

Quote:
If I were you, and if the above is all accurate, the next thing i would do would be to pick up any old VGA cable I could find, cut it in half, and splice the H-sync wire from one of the halves with the Green wire from the other (don't forget to also make a ground line). You want to take C-sync from the gscartsw and put it into the 160xi's green input, with all other connections being open. If you feel like trying this, ask around beforehand to see what the voltage level of the gscartsw's C-sync output is, because it's probably a bad idea to put 5V TTL on that green input. A simple resistor in series will bring that down to a safe level.


Again, I have no idea what I'm doing with something like this. I pay people to build my cables and mod my systems. Anything past that is beyond me. I would ask though....before you sorta hacked together the solution you have now, did you have similar issues just hooking things into the 160xi as you normally would (as I'm trying)? If that were the case I would feel a little bit better about what I'm seeing, but as I mentioned earlier, I thought that there were other people in your thread about your 2050R that were using 160xi's that didn't need to do what you're doing? If that were the case then it makes no sense why I'm seeing what I'm seeing. I mean, I'm using a 2070R so there could be some differences there, but I had both that and my 2050R hooked up at one time and had the same issues with both.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:53 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Quote:
You may have mentioned this earlier, but are you using a SuperGrafx as well, or just a standard PCE? Not sure if theres a difference regarding the sync, but figured I'd ask. Also, does just standard old composite work for you, or did that give you flagging as well?


I'm using a Supergrafx. Also, the sync should be the same among all PCE consoles.

Straight composite video does not work. It has identical flagging symptoms.

Quote:
Honestly, it was kinda diagonal rolling if I recall, but I'd have to hook it up again to be sure. That said, I know that the suggested RGB cable for it is the monoprice dsub to 5 BNC for whatever reason. Since you just use the one sync (can't recall if it's H or V) as the sync line I thought to switch the output on the 160xi from S, to H and then to V, but all produced the same image. Also, the Nt Mini does sync on green, so I tried that as well, but again the same thing.


OK, it sounds like my guess before about V-sync detection was off.

Did the 160xi's indicator light even change to green when you connected the Nt Mini?

Quote:
Again, I have no idea what I'm doing with something like this. I pay people to build my cables and mod my systems. Anything past that is beyond me. I would ask though....before you sorta hacked together the solution you have now, did you have similar issues just hooking things into the 160xi as you normally would (as I'm trying)? If that were the case I would feel a little bit better about what I'm seeing, but as I mentioned earlier, I thought that there were other people in your thread about your 2050R that were using 160xi's that didn't need to do what you're doing? If that were the case then it makes no sense why I'm seeing what I'm seeing. I mean, I'm using a 2070R so there could be some differences there, but I had both that and my 2050R hooked up at one time and had the same issues with both.


I don't remember every iteration I tried, but I know that I wouldn't have tried what you are trying now. Remember, the 160xi won't work at all unless it's detecting video, and I've never fed it actual video. The only thing I have ever gotten to pass through this particular Extron at all is my phony sync-on-green. It's possible that it behaves differently when you put PCE C-sync on the dedicated sync input lines.

If you attached your Nt Mini, and you enabled sync-on-green there, and you enabled sync-on-green on the 160xi (SOG switch), and you disabled Ext. Sync on the 2070, and it still didn't work, that would be really screwy. I'd be tempted to try another 160xi at that point.

Although if I were you, I would try to branch out a bit and learn how to do some soldering. Making a cable that connects C-sync to the 160xi's green input with no other connections present (other than ground) would be a good beginner project. It wouldn't have be beautiful, either, just functional enough to test with. Then you could proceed knowing that you had tried the exact thing that's been shown to work elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:07 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
Did the 160xi's indicator light even change to green when you connected the Nt Mini?


I'll hook it up again sometime this weekend to confirm. It wasn't something I bothered to look at so I don't know if it did or didn't.

Quote:
I don't remember every iteration I tried, but I know that I wouldn't have tried what you are trying now. Remember, the 160xi won't work at all unless it's detecting video, and I've never fed it actual video. The only thing I have ever gotten to pass through this particular Extron at all is my phony sync-on-green. It's possible that it behaves differently when you put PCE C-sync on the dedicated sync input lines.


That seems very odd to me that you can't get anything to pass through the 160xi except your phony sync on green....I'll have to also test mine on my BVM this weekend as well just to see if it works. As it is I can get a picture through it, but it's not playable because of the flagging.

Quote:
If you attached your Nt Mini, and you enabled sync-on-green there, and you enabled sync-on-green on the 160xi (SOG switch), and you disabled Ext. Sync on the 2070, and it still didn't work, that would be really screwy. I'd be tempted to try another 160xi at that point.


This is what I did, and it was the same thing each time. I prob shoulda tried the same thing through my 203 Rxi, so I guess I'll try that this weekend as well :D.

Quote:
Although if I were you, I would try to branch out a bit and learn how to do some soldering. Making a cable that connects C-sync to the 160xi's green input with no other connections present (other than ground) would be a good beginner project. It wouldn't have be beautiful, either, just functional enough to test with. Then you could proceed knowing that you had tried the exact thing that's been shown to work elsewhere.


I'd thought about taking up soldering (and I've done it before, but that was like 20+ years ago :lol:), but I've got too many unfinished projects to worry about before getting into that. As it is I have a bunch of systems, monitors and video equipment strewn about in my game room that needs hooked up and has needed it for about 3 years now :lol:.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:56 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Quote:
That seems very odd to me that you can't get anything to pass through the 160xi except your phony sync on green....I'll have to also test mine on my BVM this weekend as well just to see if it works. As it is I can get a picture through it, but it's not playable because of the flagging.


Other Extrons are OK with processing sync only, but this one doesn't want to work until it detects video. Very odd indeed.

If it screws up even on your BVM, you can be certain that something is amiss with the Extron.

For the record, I once put the internal H/V signals directly into the H/V inputs on an Extron SS 200, and the C-sync output was perfect. You could probably get the same with other Extron models, too.

Quote:
This is what I did, and it was the same thing each time. I prob shoulda tried the same thing through my 203 Rxi, so I guess I'll try that this weekend as well :D.


Ah, that's a good idea. Please let me know how it goes.

Also for the record, I think that this 160xi solution still introduces a tiny, tiny amount of skewing at the top of the picture. It's just enough that I've often thought to myself that I'd like to use the internal H/V into the Extron SS 200 permanently, or finally getting around to building that custom combining circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:18 pm 


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Location: Ohio,USA
Only the very first revision of the SSDS3 tried to build its own csync. There were less than 50 of those made and shipped out. With the majority returned for the Rev A board exchange. These were the ones that had digital and analog ground connected and tons of video noise.

The Rev A boards have a different circuit that doesn't build its own csync. I'd venture that the vast majority have since been upgraded with the FU-RGB created by Voultar and myself.

The Rev B boards, released in 2019, have the FU-RGB built in. Along with a couple tweaks I suggested to minimize transmission noise.

I realize this is not the scope of this thread, just wanted to offer some explanation of where the confusion may have come from.
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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:18 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Finally got around to doing some more testing (been sick unfortunately :() and made some interesting discoveries. So the first thing I did was to use my Sencore video generator --> RGB 160xi --> 2070R to see what would happen. To my surprise, it worked, and no flagging. I then tried my Nt Mini --> RGB 160xi --> 2070R again. I didn't realize at the time, but when I tried it previously I had just checked the boxes on the different sync options, but never pressed start to apply them. I couldn't see what was on the screen to know better since it wasn't syching, but I realized this when I was setting it to sync on green on my flatscreen prior to testing. Anyway, when I tried it this time, it worked....kinda....the picture was kinda messed up. It doesn't really matter though because I then tried it on RGBS and it worked properly. For whatever reason though composite video sync (which it defaults to) didn't work at all. That's why I was having issues last time because I never truly changed it from composite video sync.

With this in mind I tested my SNES --> gscartsw --> RGB 160xi --> 2070R again just to be confirm prior results, and again I got the flagging. I also tried the SNES --> gscartsw --> 2070R once more to make sure I wasn't crazy, and that is still working as it should. So it would seem that for whatever reason, the RGB 160xi does not like what it's getting from the gscartsw, or at the very least the monitor doesn't like what it's getting from the gscartsw passing through the RGB 160xi. I didn't bother testing the RGB 203rxi I have again because from prior tests I would have got the same results.

Lastly I tested my SuperGrafx --> gscartsw --> RGB 160xi --> BVM (note that I had to turn off VCR mode because VCR mode clears up any issues without the need for an RGB interface to clean it up). This works in cleaning up the SuperGrafx signal, so with everything else in mind, I think it would work on my 2070R as well if I could get the SuperGrafx straight into the RGB interface. I sent an email just now to Retro Access to see if they can build a custom Genesis 2 to dsub15 cable, so we'll see where that gets me.

This is all very strange though. The way these monitors behaves just doesn't make any sense. I tried my Nt Mini straight into the monitor again as well, and I can't get it to sync. Even stranger, component didn't work as well, but composite did. Of course on the BVM it's no problem, but I wonder what would happen if I purchased a scart cable for it and ran it through my gscartsw and into the 2070R. I might try that some day, but I don't really have a use for it now. If I can get the custom cable for the SuperGrafx though I think I'll have fixed all my outstanding issues, save for one final thing unrelated to this whole mess....

I need to find the pincushion adjustment on this because it needs tweaked a little bit. It doesn't seem to be a problem so much on any SD content, but 480p, 720p and 1080i def needs an adjustment. I used to have a TM20-20RH and the pots for this were right on the deflection board, but a quick glance at these newer models, I'm not sure where they are. The pots are so small and there's so much stuff it's hard to see. I'll take a much closer look at it when I have some time in the future, but mention it because I'm not sure if you made any of these adjustments yourself and could pass on any information. In particular I'm wondering if there are separate SD and HD adjustments for pincushion.

Edit: I guess there is one other outstanding issue too which is the jitter in NES and SNES. I ordered the dejitter board for my NES and will have that modded (shoutout to my guy Mobius who will be doing it btw, he does good work :D) sometime soon, so if that clears up that issue then I'll do the same with the SNES as well. It'll prob be at least a month or so before I get the NES modded though, so I won't have any feedback on that for some time.


Last edited by jamon1567 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:20 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
I'm afraid I can't be of help with the pincushion adjustments. Sorry about that.

I'm curious about the custom cable you're having built. How will sound be connected?

One option would be to get a common Genesis 2 -> BNC cable with whatever connector for sound works best for you. You could take the RGB lines and connect them directly to your matrix switch, then take the sync line (no need for an LM1881 if you're using an SSD3) and connect it to the green line of this to run to the 160xi. Take the composite sync from that and link it up with the matrix switch, and there you go: the exact same thing I've got.


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