shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:13 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:07 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
SamIAm wrote:
I'm afraid I can't be of help with the pincushion adjustments. Sorry about that.

I'm curious about the custom cable you're having built. How will sound be connected?

One option would be to get a common Genesis 2 -> BNC cable with whatever connector for sound works best for you. You could take the RGB lines and connect them directly to your matrix switch, then take the sync line (no need for an LM1881 if you're using an SSD3) and connect it to the green line of this to run to the 160xi. Take the composite sync from that and link it up with the matrix switch, and there you go: the exact same thing I've got.


I've asked Retro Access if they can build a Genesis 2 --> dsub15 cable w/audio break outs, or a female scart --> dsub15 cable w/audio break outs. I also found that Retro Gaming Cables actually used to make a female scart version, so I emailed them just now as well. I would prefer to just have the Genesis 2 --> dsub15 since I only need to use the RGB 160xi with the SuperGrafx, but either would work. If I can't get a cable made, then I also see that a Sync Strike should work to get scart --> dsub15 --> Extron RGB as well.

As for using the cable you linked, it would cost more to buy that and a Genesis 2 BNC cable than the other solutions, as well as being less elegant, so I'll probably go with one of the other options. I guess that could be the backup plan though.


Last edited by jamon1567 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:16 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 440
Yeah, whatever is cheaper and doesn't gum up your setup too much is probably best.

It may be negligible in this case, but just in principle, the fewer connections and the shorter the total cable length, the better the signal integrity will be. That's what I like about running RGB straight from the console to the matrix switch. Sync, on the other hand, is fine going through just about anything.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:23 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
Looks like this would work for me as well. May actually just go this route as it'll prob be cheaper and quicker than ordering the Sync Strike. Either way, when I figure out what I'm gonna do I'll update this thread with results, and also provide an update on if the dejitter mod works on these monitors. Thanks for all the help!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
Well, I got my sync strike today and just did a little testing. It looks like the sync strike did it's job, insofar as I can get a signal through it, into an Extron RGB unit and get it to display on the monitor. However, neither my 160xi nor my 203 Rxi fixes the flagging on a SuperGrafx. I also tested SMS (through a Power Base Converter on my Gensis) and that did not work either. Oddly, if I went Genesis --> SS --> 160xi --> 2070R it wouldn't display and was all wonky. Also, the first thing I tried was SuperGrafx --> gscartsw 3.4 --> SS --> 203 Rxi --> 2070R and sync was messed up on the monitor and the Extron was showing that it was a 480p signal....

So all that said, I didn't really bother to test further. When it "worked", the Extrons didn't clear up the flagging, so it's pointless to test further. I guess maybe I'll test the NES and SNES through the Extrons to see if it clears up the jitter, but I don't think it will, and I plan on getting the dejitter mod done to see if that works. If it does, then I have a solution for everything other than the SuperGrafx, so I guess that's good enough. Still very disappointing, but it is what it is.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:18 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
I am by no means an ikegami specialist, but a thought occurred to me about the flagging. I've seen flagging issues involving an rxi resolved by using separate H and V sync before. Just a thought, but if you use a device that can separate the sync (i know the lm1881 can do it, but not sure if the sync strike is setup to do so or if it just cleans and passes) then you could try going into the rxi with separate H and V on the dsub or bnc (whichever your unit has).

On the dsub, vga uses 13 and 14 for H and V. https://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:39 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 440
jamon1567 wrote:
Well, I got my sync strike today and just did a little testing.


I'm sorry I didn't notice this before, but I wouldn't have recommended getting a Sync Strike since you've already got clean C-sync coming out of the SSD3. The Sync Strike doesn't bill itself as doing anything to rectify sync signals; it only strips them off composite video. In other words, it's not really doing anything for your Supergrafx at all. The Extron giving a weird response is probably due to it getting separate H/V sync from the Sync Strike instead of C-sync.

I really, really don't think there is anything about your monitor, your 160xi, or your Supergrafx that is causing you to get a different result from me. I think it's simply because you're not actually replicating my setup.

Since the C-sync signal from the SSD3 is buffered, you ought to be able to run it straight to the 160xi as-is, right to the green input. I'm not even sure if you need a resistor in-series, since it's probably not being amplified far beyond 1Vp-p.

vol.2 wrote:
I am by no means an ikegami specialist, but a thought occurred to me about the flagging. I've seen flagging issues involving an rxi resolved by using separate H and V sync before. Just a thought, but if you use a device that can separate the sync (i know the lm1881 can do it, but not sure if the sync strike is setup to do so or if it just cleans and passes) then you could try going into the rxi with separate H and V on the dsub or bnc (whichever your unit has).


I'm pretty sure that the Sync Strike he just bought is already sending separate H/V sync to the Extron. The Sync Strike is based on an LM1881, and it's probably just taking the V-sync pulse from there and otherwise putting the C-sync output on the H-sync line of the Dsub connector.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:11 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
Quote:
I'm sorry I didn't notice this before, but I wouldn't have recommended getting a Sync Strike since you've already got clean C-sync coming out of the SSD3. The Sync Strike doesn't bill itself as doing anything to rectify sync signals; it only strips them off composite video. In other words, it's not really doing anything for your Supergrafx at all. The Extron giving a weird response is probably due to it getting separate H/V sync from the Sync Strike instead of C-sync.

I really, really don't think there is anything about your monitor, your 160xi, or your Supergrafx that is causing you to get a different result from me. I think it's simply because you're not actually replicating my setup.

Since the C-sync signal from the SSD3 is buffered, you ought to be able to run it straight to the 160xi as-is, right to the green input. I'm not even sure if you need a resistor in-series, since it's probably not being amplified far beyond 1Vp-p.


If I some day decide to take up soldering I will try your setup, but right now I'm really just frustrated with the whole damn thing. I have a TM20-80RH that works perfectly fine with all of my 240p consoles (although that isn't perfect either....it has an issue with RGB where if you isolate the blue gun it almost looks like someone ran a paintbrush across it, but component is fine...assume it's a capacitor issue on that board), and I'm not sure I don't like the 700 lines of that monitor better for those games anyway. And since I already have a D32 for 480p and HD stuff, which is also widescreen, I'm not even sure I want the 2070R anymore. The HTM monitors are a total PITA and I still need to figure out how to fix the pincushion on top of the sync issues. On paper they seem like the perfect monitor for my tastes, but now I'm not so sure.

I still want to see what happens with my NES after I have the dejitter mod done. If it works then I'll have it done on the SNES as well and then the only issue will be the SuperGrafx since the new gscartsw fixes the SMS. I think I might reach out to superg to see what he did there because it improves the SuperGrafx, but not completely. It's like whatever the issue is for the SMS, it's a little more pronounced on the SuperGrafx. I don't think it will really help, but I'm at least curious.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:05 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
SamIAm wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the Sync Strike he just bought is already sending separate H/V sync to the Extron. The Sync Strike is based on an LM1881, and it's probably just taking the V-sync pulse from there and otherwise putting the C-sync output on the H-sync line of the Dsub connector.


Your right in that it's sending V and C, it's not sending clean H though, that can make a difference. The lm1881 actually cannot send H at all. A gs4981 will send actual H sync. It's practically a drop in for the lm1881, but you'd have to cut the csync line and reroute the H pin from the chip. I thought about doing this before actually, should give much more reliable results.
In any case, seems like op isn't into the tinkering side of stuff, so this is probably moot.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:14 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 440
jamon1567 wrote:
If I some day decide to take up soldering I will try your setup, but right now I'm really just frustrated with the whole damn thing.


Believe me, I understand. I went through a lot myself trying to get PCE to work on the 2050 before that highly unseeming solution with the 160xi was discovered.

I also have to agree that all other things being equal, 700 TVL is better than 900 TVL for retro gaming. The redeeming qualities of the HTMs are that 1) the Cave ports on 360 look fantastic on them with the screen rotated, and 2) they actually support SVGA (800x600), which makes them super-compatible with emulators and PC games.

Please keep us posted on how the dejitter mod affects the NES on these things. And whatever you do, make sure that 2070 has a good home. :)

vol.2 wrote:
Your right in that it's sending V and C, it's not sending clean H though, that can make a difference. The lm1881 actually cannot send H at all. A gs4981 will send actual H sync. It's practically a drop in for the lm1881, but you'd have to cut the csync line and reroute the H pin from the chip. I thought about doing this before actually, should give much more reliable results.
In any case, seems like op isn't into the tinkering side of stuff, so this is probably moot.


Yeah, it sounds like we're on the same page.

I think I mentioned it before, but if you tap the PCE's internal H/V sync signals, which is extremely doable, you can run that straight to an Extron (ideally after buffering it), and everything will be hunky-dory.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:28 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
I read through this thread one more time to see what SamIAm was doing, but I still don't understand why what he is doing would work. If I understand correctly what SamIAm is doing, he took a regular old PCE composite cable cut it open, ran it through a LM1881 and then soldered the sync output from there to the green input of his Extron. I then assume he enabled SOG on the Extron and used the green output as his sync line to his monitor, while running RGB from the same PCE via a mod or through an SSDS3 or something, but not using the sync from that.

If that is correct, it still does not make sense to me. In a previous post SamIAm said that the PCE just pulls csync from composite video, so why would stripping sync from composite video be any different than me just using csync from the SSDS3, running it through the SyncStrike and then into my Extron? The only difference would appear to be that he is sending sync to the green line, but I don't understand why it would need to be connected in that specific fashion.

It's possible I have this all wrong though. I am not as technically inclined as a lot of people here. I have a high level understanding of most of this, but apparently not enough to understand why this isn't working for me, while SamIAm's very odd setup works.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
SamIAm wrote:
I also have to agree that all other things being equal, 700 TVL is better than 900 TVL for retro gaming. The redeeming qualities of the HTMs are that 1) the Cave ports on 360 look fantastic on them with the screen rotated, and 2) they actually support SVGA (800x600), which makes them super-compatible with emulators and PC games.


While I do like the 700 TVL look, I will still be keeping my eye out for a TM20-90RH. Of course I've never seen one anywhere, but neither had I really seen an HTM-2070R either until I bought one.

Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:58 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 440
Here is my pipeline:

Supergrafx composite video ---> LM1881 ---> 330 ohm series resistor ---> Green input of 160xi ---> HTM-2050R2 EXT Sync input

(This also works with a matrix switch in between the 160xi and the monitor)

Note that I am not using the green output of the 160xi. I'm using the "S" output, AKA C-sync. Nothing else is connected; only the green input and only the "S" output. Also, as I mentioned before, the only DIP switch that is enabled is SERR.

The Sync Strike is probably feeding your Extron(s) separate H/V sync, or rather a bastardized version of that where it puts C-sync on the H-sync line. That alone is likely enough to confuse the Extron.

V-Sync on/off is not something you can toggle on the Sync Strike, is it? If it is, make sure that it's off. If it's not and you are ready to try anything, you could take an exacto knife and sever the wire that goes to the V-sync pin on the Dsub connector on the Sync Strike.

It seems to me that you have not yet tried feeding the 160xi C-sync directly from the SSD3. There has always been something in between. Is that accurate?

I don't know if the 160xi actually requires that the sync be fed to the green input for this trick to work. Regardless, if you build (or have someone build) a custom cable, I wouldn't even try anything else.

jamon1567 wrote:
Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


There's nothing to it.

- Enable HDTV mode on the monitor.
- Put the H/V sync from your PC through (you guessed it) an Extron box to have it make C-sync and run that to the EXT Sync input on the monitor. The RGB lines can be connected as-is.

It's not officially supported according to any of the HTM literature, but believe me, it works just fine.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:26 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
SamIAm wrote:
Here is my pipeline:

Supergrafx composite video ---> LM1881 ---> 330 ohm series resistor ---> Green input of 160xi ---> HTM-2050R2

(This also works with a matrix switch in between the 160xi and the monitor)

Note that I am not using the green output of the 160xi. I'm using the "S" output, AKA C-sync. Nothing else is connected; only the green input and only the "S" output.

The Sync Strike is probably feeding your Extron(s) separate H/V sync, or rather a bastardized version of that where it puts C-sync on the H-sync line. That alone is likely enough to confuse the Extron.

V-Sync on/off is not something you can toggle on the Sync Strike, is it? If it is, make sure that it's off. If it's not and you are ready to try anything, you could take an exacto knife and sever the wire that goes to the V-sync pin on the Dsub connector on the Sync Strike.

It seems to me that you have not yet tried feeding the 160xi C-sync directly from the SSD3. There has always been something in between. Is that accurate?

I don't know if the 160xi actually requires that the sync be fed to the green input for this trick to work. Regardless, if you build (or have someone build) a custom cable, I wouldn't even try anything else.


So there's a couple things. The SS is supposed to work for sending RGBS to an Extron, at least from the information I found in this thread: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65692. That thread also outlines that the gscartsw output (even though it too employs an LM1881 for stripping sync) is known to have issues with Extron units. It's because of this that I decided to order the SS. As for whether it can toggle V-Sync, not that I'm aware.

Having said that, I can run stuff from the gscartsw into an Extron and into either my BVM or TM and it works fine. So the fact that it works with some monitors but not with others does not make sense. That you can get it to work with your frankensteined setup is still baffling, and no, I've not run sync from the SuperGrafx straight into the Extron. That would require soldering which I'm not capable of doing. I think you suggested using a VGA --> BNC dongle earlier, but those cables aren't bi-directional, so that isn't an option unfortunately. At this point I'm out of ideas aside from recreating your setup, but that isn't something I'm prepared to do right now. Perhaps in the future.

SamIAm wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


There's nothing to it.

- Enable HDTV mode on the monitor.
- Put the H/V sync from your PC through (you guessed it) an Extron box to have it make C-sync and run that to the EXT Sync input on the monitor. The RGB lines can be connected as-is.

It's not officially supported according to any of the HTM literature, but believe me, it works just fine.


Sounds easy enough, thanks!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:13 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
So wanted to follow up on a few things. I just got my NES back from having the dejitter mod installed and I would say that it mostly worked, certainly enough that I'm satisfied with where it's at. It took out all of the jitter and removed most of the warping. Some pictures below. Considering the SNES was not as bad as the NES, I'm hopeful the results on that (when I have it done) will be even better.

Pic of the NES after having the dejitter mod done. Note the slight warp in the pipe. No more jitter present though.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k3XRmm5ZTXukwC8vq_nq98iXatrqPkJY/view?usp=sharing

Here is a pic from my Nt Mini which presented the same issue as my NES before the mod. While you can't see the jitter in a static image, it not only has much more of a warp, but is very jittery as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k6oVLI_SK-wBNdNRUp05Bj-ILjG8S4XN/view?usp=sharing

I also have an update on the SuperGrafx issue. I spoke to Mobius Strip Tech about seeing if he could modify an Extron RGB unit for me per SamIAm's instructions, and based on what I was seeing and what SamIAm was doing, he thought that maybe the reason SamIAm's setup was working was because the output from the lm1881 was TTL level sync. Since I had an old Retro Access Genesis 2 cable laying around, I had him modify the cable (remove the 470 ohm resistor and capacitor from the sync line) so I could try using that in my setup. Below are the various scenarios I tested.

SGX --> sync strike --> 2070R
SGX --> sync strike --> Extron RGB --> 2070R

When I tried these I got a rolling screen like there was a sync issue and the picture was kind of flickery/pulsing. When connected through the Extron, it didn't register any frequency, as if it didn't recognize there was a signal. However, in both cases, it seemed like the flagging was gone. I have a video of it below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jx03bmwY-W6_KsTvY6n7yy-FCU8-HhAx/view?usp=sharing

SGX --> gscartsw 3.4 --> 2070R
SGX --> gscartsw 3.4 --> sync strike --> 2070R
SGX --> gscartsw 3.4 --> Extron RGB --> 2070R
SGX --> gscartsw 3.4 --> sync strike --> Extron RGB --> 2070R

With all of these I got a picture that was so dark I could barely make it out, but it seemed to still have the flagging. It looked like sync was fine though since the picture wasn't rolling. Also when connected to an Extron RGB, it recognized the signal and showed the correct frequency.

SGX --> gscartsw 5.2 --> 2070R
SGX --> gscartsw 5.2 --> sync strike --> 2070R

For both of these methods, if I have the SMS sync fix disabled it has flagging on damn near half the screen, while if I enable it the flagging is greatly reduced, but still unplayable.

SGX --> gscartsw 5.2 --> sync strike --> Extron RGB --> 2070R

This last scenario was slightly different than the two above in that the SMS sync fix didn't remove any of the flagging, as if the Extron just removed whatever the gscartsw did.

So all that said I'm gonna order another dejitter board and send my SNES out to have it added to that as well. When I do that I will probably also send out my Extron RGB 160xi to be modded per SamIAm's instructions as well. That is unless anyone else has any ideas. I feel like we might have been onto something by modifying that cable because, even though the sync is messed up, there is no flagging. The only other idea I had was that maybe the sync strike wasn't getting enough power from the scart cable because if I have the SuperGrafx connected directly to the sync strike with the modified cable, and then into the Extron RGB (with no gscartsw in between), the Extron does not appear to recognize the signal properly. Since the sync strike can get power from either the scart or from an external PSU, I thought maybe using an external power supply might be worth testing. The problem though is that since the sync strike is geared towards arcade enthusiasts, the PSU input uses screw terminals and I don't have anything laying around to test with at the moment. If anyone thinks that might be the issue though, I can certainly look into it. I would also note that if I use my properly built Genesis 2 cable, the Extron RGB recognizes the signal, but of course I have the flagging.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
That is unless anyone else has any ideas.


I have a different Ikegami monitor which has problems with syncing to some stuff, but it seems to do fine with sync on green. Does your monitor do sync on green and have you tried it?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:31 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
That is unless anyone else has any ideas.


I have a different Ikegami monitor which has problems with syncing to some stuff, but it seems to do fine with sync on green. Does your monitor do sync on green and have you tried it?


I believe it should and I can't remember if I tried it. Are you getting RGsB from an Extron RGB I presume? Like, should I go SGX --> sync strike (or possibly even remove that) --> Extron RGB (using RGsB) --> monitor?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:34 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
That is unless anyone else has any ideas.


I have a different Ikegami monitor which has problems with syncing to some stuff, but it seems to do fine with sync on green. Does your monitor do sync on green and have you tried it?


I believe it should and I can't remember if I tried it. Are you getting RGsB from an Extron RGB I presume? Like, should I go SGX --> sync strike (or possibly even remove that) --> Extron RGB (using RGsB) --> monitor?


I get SOG out of my WiiDual directly, also the Extron 203 Rxi with the SOG dipswitch on the back. All of the systems that I tried through the Extron have clean sync of their own through other means, so I didn't use a sync strike, but you could try with and without.

The main advantage to SOG is that it's color signal line level. Regular TTL sync voltage is higher than the color lines, so using SOG is basically bypassing all that and letting the monitor derive what it wants from the green line by itself.
Could be worth a shot if that monitor takes it. I know mine specifically says it does in the manual.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:43 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
Quote:
I get SOG out of my WiiDual directly, also the Extron 203 Rxi with the SOG dipswitch on the back. All of the systems that I tried through the Extron have clean sync of their own through other means, so I didn't use a sync strike, but you could try with and without.

The main advantage to SOG is that it's color signal line level. Regular TTL sync voltage is higher than the color lines, so using SOG is basically bypassing all that and letting the monitor derive what it wants from the green line by itself.
Could be worth a shot if that monitor takes it. I know mine specifically says it does in the manual.


I have an Extron 230 Rxi which is what I was testing with (I also bought the 160xi in case I need to do the mod like SamIAm did), so I'll try using that to get RGsB tonight and see how that works. Thanks for the suggestion.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
I have an Extron 230 Rxi


that's what i meant. mine's also a 230

yea, be interested to know if it works. i know some Ikegami's also have dipswitches (sometimes INSIDE the set) for mode selection for some input signal setups. not familiar with yours specifically.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:08 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
I have an Extron 230 Rxi


that's what i meant. mine's also a 230

yea, be interested to know if it works. i know some Ikegami's also have dipswitches (sometimes INSIDE the set) for mode selection for some input signal setups. not familiar with yours specifically.


You were right, it's a 203 Rxi lol. Just a typo.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:43 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
I have an Extron 230 Rxi


that's what i meant. mine's also a 230

yea, be interested to know if it works. i know some Ikegami's also have dipswitches (sometimes INSIDE the set) for mode selection for some input signal setups. not familiar with yours specifically.


I just tried RGsB and no dice. I went SGX --> sync strike (whether a sync stripper is needed or not, I need to use this to get an RGB signal into the Extron since it only has a VGA style input) --> 203 Rxi --> 2070R with both a proper Genesis 2 cable, and the one that was modified to remove the resistor and capacitors on the sync line. With the proper cable I get a picture with all the flagging just as I normally would, so RGsB was working, but with the modified cable I still have the same issue as in the video I posted earlier. So I guess unless we have any more ideas, I'll have to look into SamIAm's setup. Also worth pointing out that with all of these tests, I've tried the Extron (when used in the chain) with DDSP and SERR both on and off all combinations of it. Nothing seems to work.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
so RGsB was working


You only had the three color lines attached to you monitor and left the other sync BNC disconnected?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:38 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
so RGsB was working


You only had the three color lines attached to you monitor and left the other sync BNC disconnected?


Correct. The monitor was set to RGB, external sync turned off and the SOG switched on on the Extron.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:55 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
Hmmmm.

Can you grab a luma signal from the SGX output? People use that trick with PSX because it tends to work better than the PSX composite sync.

If there is provision on the video output for svideo, then you just take luma from there and use that as sync. Route it through one of the bncs on your Extron. The H input if you want sync-level voltage, the Green input if you want regular line level. The green is the only input that would allow it to pass because the 203 automatically strips any sync signal from all other channels.

From the 203 manual:

"Automatic sync stripping — Sync signals are automatically stripped from the red, green,
and blue video input signals. The interfaces normally output sync simultaneously as separate
horizontal and vertical sync and as composite sync, but sync on green (SOG) can be selected
via a rear panel DIP switch."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:16 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
Hmmmm.

Can you grab a luma signal from the SGX output? People use that trick with PSX because it tends to work better than the PSX composite sync.

If there is provision on the video output for svideo, then you just take luma from there and use that as sync. Route it through one of the bncs on your Extron. The H input if you want sync-level voltage, the Green input if you want regular line level. The green is the only input that would allow it to pass because the 203 automatically strips any sync signal from all other channels.

From the 203 manual:

"Automatic sync stripping — Sync signals are automatically stripped from the red, green,
and blue video input signals. The interfaces normally output sync simultaneously as separate
horizontal and vertical sync and as composite sync, but sync on green (SOG) can be selected
via a rear panel DIP switch."


That sounds like what SamIAm did. He took composite video, ran it through an lm1881 and soldered it directly to the green input on an Extron RBG 160xi. He used that for sync and pulled the rest from his SSDS3. If this is what I need to do then I guess it's at least a solution. I'm not aware of any RGB units that have any BNC inputs though as you suggest. All the inputs are vga style connectors. If there is a model that has BNC connectors then I could just use composite from the SGX for sync and then the output from the SSDS3 for red, green, and blue.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:20 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
I'm not aware of any RGB units that have any BNC inputs though as you suggest.


*Facepalm*

You're totally right, yeah, I forgot it's VGA in. However, you can also get a BNC to VGA breakout cable. Extron made them and sold them with the RGB units exactly for this reason. Or, you can just cut a VGA cable in half and use a multimeter to find continuity to the green pin from one of the wires and any of the grounds. (or the H sync pin) It's a fairly easy operation.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about https://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-5-BNC-Fema ... xyhodRxOAj

Also, I was saying use the LUMA instead of the composite video for sync. That might help. It's what is typically done for the Playstation because they have notoriously difficult sync as well.
You'd have to pull it from an S-video output (which is chroma and luma)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:13 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
I'm not aware of any RGB units that have any BNC inputs though as you suggest.


*Facepalm*

You're totally right, yeah, I forgot it's VGA in. However, you can also get a BNC to VGA breakout cable. Extron made them and sold them with the RGB units exactly for this reason. Or, you can just cut a VGA cable in half and use a multimeter to find continuity to the green pin from one of the wires and any of the grounds. (or the H sync pin) It's a fairly easy operation.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about https://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-5-BNC-Fema ... xyhodRxOAj

Also, I was saying use the LUMA instead of the composite video for sync. That might help. It's what is typically done for the Playstation because they have notoriously difficult sync as well.
You'd have to pull it from an S-video output (which is chroma and luma)


I've looked at a number of those cables and, at least with all the ones I've found, they're not bi-directional and are VGA --> BNC. As for s-video, I've no way to get it. I use an SSDS3 and was going to pull sync from the stock composite. Which I guess should be fine anyway as it works for SamIAm. I'll prob just see if I can get one of my current Extrons modded to where the G output in the back can just be sent to the input or something. Or just run a composite cable into the device and solder it directly to the G input. Both would require a sync stripper in between though of course.

Edit: Thinking about this again, even if those cables were bi-directional, it wouldn't work. What I need to do is somehow get a separate sync line and then use the SSDS3 for the RGB lines. Because my console isn't RGB modded and I rely on the SSDS3 for that, I have no other way of getting G if I'm using it just for sync.


Last edited by jamon1567 on Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
they're not bi-directional and are VGA --> BNC


That's not a thing. The BNCs are routed to the appropriate pins on the VGA connector. They are by their very nature bi-directional. The particular one I sent you has 5 BNCs, so you have a choice to do separate HV or composite on the H input as per VGA standard. The only thing lacking is the 5V input which almost no monitor ever used, and the 203 certainly does not.

I have used plenty of VGA-BNC-VGA cables on my 203 with absolutely no issue.

sucks you can't get luma out of the SGX. I figured there would have been svideo on the consoles video output.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:30 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 81
vol.2 wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
they're not bi-directional and are VGA --> BNC


That's not a thing. The BNCs are routed to the appropriate pins on the VGA connector. They are by their very nature bi-directional. The particular one I sent you has 5 BNCs, so you have a choice to do separate HV or composite on the H input as per VGA standard. The only thing lacking is the 5V input which almost no monitor ever used, and the 203 certainly does not.

I have used plenty of VGA-BNC-VGA cables on my 203 with absolutely no issue.

sucks you can't get luma out of the SGX. I figured there would have been svideo on the consoles video output.


Well I just added an edit to my prior message which you prob didn't see, but since my console isn't RGB modded, if I used one of those cables to just run G into the Extron for sync, I'd have no other way to actually pull the actual G line. As for s-video, to my knowledge there isn't, but I guess I should double check that.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 744
Location: bmore
jamon1567 wrote:
if I used one of those cables to just run G into the Extron for sync, I'd have no other way to actually pull the actual G line.



You would grab the composite output and put it through the G pin on the extron, and then just route the colors directly to your monitor using whatever adapter or cable made sense. That's what I understood SamIam to mean. It is also possible to just combine the G with composite sync. The extron should be able to strip the sync info out if your using the SOG setting. (althought I've never tried that, might want to ask Fudoh or someone about possible combiner circuits, etc)


Quote:
As for s-video, to my knowledge there isn't, but I guess I should double check that.


It looks like you're right, no s-video. But they are extremely specific about the values of necessary inline capacitors and resistors. I'm assuming you already ensured you have all that stuff.

Image

Note that you need the caps and resistors for the RGB lines which are 1.6Vpp, but nothing is required for the composite video signal (it's preterminated 75ohm)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Lawfer, Phosryn, Pikkon and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group