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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:07 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
SamIAm wrote:
I'm afraid I can't be of help with the pincushion adjustments. Sorry about that.

I'm curious about the custom cable you're having built. How will sound be connected?

One option would be to get a common Genesis 2 -> BNC cable with whatever connector for sound works best for you. You could take the RGB lines and connect them directly to your matrix switch, then take the sync line (no need for an LM1881 if you're using an SSD3) and connect it to the green line of this to run to the 160xi. Take the composite sync from that and link it up with the matrix switch, and there you go: the exact same thing I've got.


I've asked Retro Access if they can build a Genesis 2 --> dsub15 cable w/audio break outs, or a female scart --> dsub15 cable w/audio break outs. I also found that Retro Gaming Cables actually used to make a female scart version, so I emailed them just now as well. I would prefer to just have the Genesis 2 --> dsub15 since I only need to use the RGB 160xi with the SuperGrafx, but either would work. If I can't get a cable made, then I also see that a Sync Strike should work to get scart --> dsub15 --> Extron RGB as well.

As for using the cable you linked, it would cost more to buy that and a Genesis 2 BNC cable than the other solutions, as well as being less elegant, so I'll probably go with one of the other options. I guess that could be the backup plan though.


Last edited by jamon1567 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:16 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Yeah, whatever is cheaper and doesn't gum up your setup too much is probably best.

It may be negligible in this case, but just in principle, the fewer connections and the shorter the total cable length, the better the signal integrity will be. That's what I like about running RGB straight from the console to the matrix switch. Sync, on the other hand, is fine going through just about anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:23 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Looks like this would work for me as well. May actually just go this route as it'll prob be cheaper and quicker than ordering the Sync Strike. Either way, when I figure out what I'm gonna do I'll update this thread with results, and also provide an update on if the dejitter mod works on these monitors. Thanks for all the help!


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Well, I got my sync strike today and just did a little testing. It looks like the sync strike did it's job, insofar as I can get a signal through it, into an Extron RGB unit and get it to display on the monitor. However, neither my 160xi nor my 203 Rxi fixes the flagging on a SuperGrafx. I also tested SMS (through a Power Base Converter on my Gensis) and that did not work either. Oddly, if I went Genesis --> SS --> 160xi --> 2070R it wouldn't display and was all wonky. Also, the first thing I tried was SuperGrafx --> gscartsw 3.4 --> SS --> 203 Rxi --> 2070R and sync was messed up on the monitor and the Extron was showing that it was a 480p signal....

So all that said, I didn't really bother to test further. When it "worked", the Extrons didn't clear up the flagging, so it's pointless to test further. I guess maybe I'll test the NES and SNES through the Extrons to see if it clears up the jitter, but I don't think it will, and I plan on getting the dejitter mod done to see if that works. If it does, then I have a solution for everything other than the SuperGrafx, so I guess that's good enough. Still very disappointing, but it is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:18 pm 


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Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 537
Location: bmore
I am by no means an ikegami specialist, but a thought occurred to me about the flagging. I've seen flagging issues involving an rxi resolved by using separate H and V sync before. Just a thought, but if you use a device that can separate the sync (i know the lm1881 can do it, but not sure if the sync strike is setup to do so or if it just cleans and passes) then you could try going into the rxi with separate H and V on the dsub or bnc (whichever your unit has).

On the dsub, vga uses 13 and 14 for H and V. https://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:39 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
Well, I got my sync strike today and just did a little testing.


I'm sorry I didn't notice this before, but I wouldn't have recommended getting a Sync Strike since you've already got clean C-sync coming out of the SSD3. The Sync Strike doesn't bill itself as doing anything to rectify sync signals; it only strips them off composite video. In other words, it's not really doing anything for your Supergrafx at all. The Extron giving a weird response is probably due to it getting separate H/V sync from the Sync Strike instead of C-sync.

I really, really don't think there is anything about your monitor, your 160xi, or your Supergrafx that is causing you to get a different result from me. I think it's simply because you're not actually replicating my setup.

Since the C-sync signal from the SSD3 is buffered, you ought to be able to run it straight to the 160xi as-is, right to the green input. I'm not even sure if you need a resistor in-series, since it's probably not being amplified far beyond 1Vp-p.

vol.2 wrote:
I am by no means an ikegami specialist, but a thought occurred to me about the flagging. I've seen flagging issues involving an rxi resolved by using separate H and V sync before. Just a thought, but if you use a device that can separate the sync (i know the lm1881 can do it, but not sure if the sync strike is setup to do so or if it just cleans and passes) then you could try going into the rxi with separate H and V on the dsub or bnc (whichever your unit has).


I'm pretty sure that the Sync Strike he just bought is already sending separate H/V sync to the Extron. The Sync Strike is based on an LM1881, and it's probably just taking the V-sync pulse from there and otherwise putting the C-sync output on the H-sync line of the Dsub connector.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:11 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
Quote:
I'm sorry I didn't notice this before, but I wouldn't have recommended getting a Sync Strike since you've already got clean C-sync coming out of the SSD3. The Sync Strike doesn't bill itself as doing anything to rectify sync signals; it only strips them off composite video. In other words, it's not really doing anything for your Supergrafx at all. The Extron giving a weird response is probably due to it getting separate H/V sync from the Sync Strike instead of C-sync.

I really, really don't think there is anything about your monitor, your 160xi, or your Supergrafx that is causing you to get a different result from me. I think it's simply because you're not actually replicating my setup.

Since the C-sync signal from the SSD3 is buffered, you ought to be able to run it straight to the 160xi as-is, right to the green input. I'm not even sure if you need a resistor in-series, since it's probably not being amplified far beyond 1Vp-p.


If I some day decide to take up soldering I will try your setup, but right now I'm really just frustrated with the whole damn thing. I have a TM20-80RH that works perfectly fine with all of my 240p consoles (although that isn't perfect either....it has an issue with RGB where if you isolate the blue gun it almost looks like someone ran a paintbrush across it, but component is fine...assume it's a capacitor issue on that board), and I'm not sure I don't like the 700 lines of that monitor better for those games anyway. And since I already have a D32 for 480p and HD stuff, which is also widescreen, I'm not even sure I want the 2070R anymore. The HTM monitors are a total PITA and I still need to figure out how to fix the pincushion on top of the sync issues. On paper they seem like the perfect monitor for my tastes, but now I'm not so sure.

I still want to see what happens with my NES after I have the dejitter mod done. If it works then I'll have it done on the SNES as well and then the only issue will be the SuperGrafx since the new gscartsw fixes the SMS. I think I might reach out to superg to see what he did there because it improves the SuperGrafx, but not completely. It's like whatever the issue is for the SMS, it's a little more pronounced on the SuperGrafx. I don't think it will really help, but I'm at least curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:05 am 


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Joined: 31 Oct 2016
Posts: 537
Location: bmore
SamIAm wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the Sync Strike he just bought is already sending separate H/V sync to the Extron. The Sync Strike is based on an LM1881, and it's probably just taking the V-sync pulse from there and otherwise putting the C-sync output on the H-sync line of the Dsub connector.


Your right in that it's sending V and C, it's not sending clean H though, that can make a difference. The lm1881 actually cannot send H at all. A gs4981 will send actual H sync. It's practically a drop in for the lm1881, but you'd have to cut the csync line and reroute the H pin from the chip. I thought about doing this before actually, should give much more reliable results.
In any case, seems like op isn't into the tinkering side of stuff, so this is probably moot.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:14 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
jamon1567 wrote:
If I some day decide to take up soldering I will try your setup, but right now I'm really just frustrated with the whole damn thing.


Believe me, I understand. I went through a lot myself trying to get PCE to work on the 2050 before that highly unseeming solution with the 160xi was discovered.

I also have to agree that all other things being equal, 700 TVL is better than 900 TVL for retro gaming. The redeeming qualities of the HTMs are that 1) the Cave ports on 360 look fantastic on them with the screen rotated, and 2) they actually support SVGA (800x600), which makes them super-compatible with emulators and PC games.

Please keep us posted on how the dejitter mod affects the NES on these things. And whatever you do, make sure that 2070 has a good home. :)

vol.2 wrote:
Your right in that it's sending V and C, it's not sending clean H though, that can make a difference. The lm1881 actually cannot send H at all. A gs4981 will send actual H sync. It's practically a drop in for the lm1881, but you'd have to cut the csync line and reroute the H pin from the chip. I thought about doing this before actually, should give much more reliable results.
In any case, seems like op isn't into the tinkering side of stuff, so this is probably moot.


Yeah, it sounds like we're on the same page.

I think I mentioned it before, but if you tap the PCE's internal H/V sync signals, which is extremely doable, you can run that straight to an Extron (ideally after buffering it), and everything will be hunky-dory.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:28 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
I read through this thread one more time to see what SamIAm was doing, but I still don't understand why what he is doing would work. If I understand correctly what SamIAm is doing, he took a regular old PCE composite cable cut it open, ran it through a LM1881 and then soldered the sync output from there to the green input of his Extron. I then assume he enabled SOG on the Extron and used the green output as his sync line to his monitor, while running RGB from the same PCE via a mod or through an SSDS3 or something, but not using the sync from that.

If that is correct, it still does not make sense to me. In a previous post SamIAm said that the PCE just pulls csync from composite video, so why would stripping sync from composite video be any different than me just using csync from the SSDS3, running it through the SyncStrike and then into my Extron? The only difference would appear to be that he is sending sync to the green line, but I don't understand why it would need to be connected in that specific fashion.

It's possible I have this all wrong though. I am not as technically inclined as a lot of people here. I have a high level understanding of most of this, but apparently not enough to understand why this isn't working for me, while SamIAm's very odd setup works.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
SamIAm wrote:
I also have to agree that all other things being equal, 700 TVL is better than 900 TVL for retro gaming. The redeeming qualities of the HTMs are that 1) the Cave ports on 360 look fantastic on them with the screen rotated, and 2) they actually support SVGA (800x600), which makes them super-compatible with emulators and PC games.


While I do like the 700 TVL look, I will still be keeping my eye out for a TM20-90RH. Of course I've never seen one anywhere, but neither had I really seen an HTM-2070R either until I bought one.

Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:58 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 427
Here is my pipeline:

Supergrafx composite video ---> LM1881 ---> 330 ohm series resistor ---> Green input of 160xi ---> HTM-2050R2 EXT Sync input

(This also works with a matrix switch in between the 160xi and the monitor)

Note that I am not using the green output of the 160xi. I'm using the "S" output, AKA C-sync. Nothing else is connected; only the green input and only the "S" output. Also, as I mentioned before, the only DIP switch that is enabled is SERR.

The Sync Strike is probably feeding your Extron(s) separate H/V sync, or rather a bastardized version of that where it puts C-sync on the H-sync line. That alone is likely enough to confuse the Extron.

V-Sync on/off is not something you can toggle on the Sync Strike, is it? If it is, make sure that it's off. If it's not and you are ready to try anything, you could take an exacto knife and sever the wire that goes to the V-sync pin on the Dsub connector on the Sync Strike.

It seems to me that you have not yet tried feeding the 160xi C-sync directly from the SSD3. There has always been something in between. Is that accurate?

I don't know if the 160xi actually requires that the sync be fed to the green input for this trick to work. Regardless, if you build (or have someone build) a custom cable, I wouldn't even try anything else.

jamon1567 wrote:
Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


There's nothing to it.

- Enable HDTV mode on the monitor.
- Put the H/V sync from your PC through (you guessed it) an Extron box to have it make C-sync and run that to the EXT Sync input on the monitor. The RGB lines can be connected as-is.

It's not officially supported according to any of the HTM literature, but believe me, it works just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Sync issues on Ikegami HTM-2070R
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:26 am 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 68
SamIAm wrote:
Here is my pipeline:

Supergrafx composite video ---> LM1881 ---> 330 ohm series resistor ---> Green input of 160xi ---> HTM-2050R2

(This also works with a matrix switch in between the 160xi and the monitor)

Note that I am not using the green output of the 160xi. I'm using the "S" output, AKA C-sync. Nothing else is connected; only the green input and only the "S" output.

The Sync Strike is probably feeding your Extron(s) separate H/V sync, or rather a bastardized version of that where it puts C-sync on the H-sync line. That alone is likely enough to confuse the Extron.

V-Sync on/off is not something you can toggle on the Sync Strike, is it? If it is, make sure that it's off. If it's not and you are ready to try anything, you could take an exacto knife and sever the wire that goes to the V-sync pin on the Dsub connector on the Sync Strike.

It seems to me that you have not yet tried feeding the 160xi C-sync directly from the SSD3. There has always been something in between. Is that accurate?

I don't know if the 160xi actually requires that the sync be fed to the green input for this trick to work. Regardless, if you build (or have someone build) a custom cable, I wouldn't even try anything else.


So there's a couple things. The SS is supposed to work for sending RGBS to an Extron, at least from the information I found in this thread: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65692. That thread also outlines that the gscartsw output (even though it too employs an LM1881 for stripping sync) is known to have issues with Extron units. It's because of this that I decided to order the SS. As for whether it can toggle V-Sync, not that I'm aware.

Having said that, I can run stuff from the gscartsw into an Extron and into either my BVM or TM and it works fine. So the fact that it works with some monitors but not with others does not make sense. That you can get it to work with your frankensteined setup is still baffling, and no, I've not run sync from the SuperGrafx straight into the Extron. That would require soldering which I'm not capable of doing. I think you suggested using a VGA --> BNC dongle earlier, but those cables aren't bi-directional, so that isn't an option unfortunately. At this point I'm out of ideas aside from recreating your setup, but that isn't something I'm prepared to do right now. Perhaps in the future.

SamIAm wrote:
jamon1567 wrote:
Also, I was not aware of the SVGA support on the HTMs. I have plans to some day repurpose my old PC for emulation so this is good to know. Could you point me to any information on this?


There's nothing to it.

- Enable HDTV mode on the monitor.
- Put the H/V sync from your PC through (you guessed it) an Extron box to have it make C-sync and run that to the EXT Sync input on the monitor. The RGB lines can be connected as-is.

It's not officially supported according to any of the HTM literature, but believe me, it works just fine.


Sounds easy enough, thanks!


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