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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:43 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 164
marqs wrote:
DiegoPonga wrote:
I am aware that 2160p is a bit crazy in terms of hardware. And I guess VRR is as well. Could a hipothetical super-expensive expansion board tackle this?
It'd be a bit pointless to design an expansion card that would end more expensive than the base system. I've found partial register/usage descriptions for SiI1136 which could theoretically replace the existing TX chip and enable pushing up to 300MHz, but that's still only half of the pixel clock required for 4:4:4 3840x2160@60Hz. At that point FPGA and PCB routing become another set of bottlenecks so asking for 4K is basically the same as asking to replace the already most expensive part with something of ~4x price and making development impossible for anyone who doesn't want to pay $5k for tools.


How about 2560x1440p @60Hz for 480p Line 3x and 240p Line 6x and/or 1920x1080p @120Hz?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:53 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Didn’t you already ask that question?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 pm 


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Location: BW, Germany
marqs wrote:
6t8k wrote:
marqs wrote:
There's still possibility to increase the number of GPIOs although that would mean I have to free up some FPGA pins.

That's good to know, I hope doing that wouldn't create other inconveniences. Depending on whether operating multiple expansion modules simultaneously is an intended feature, it could still be favorable for a single module to consume as few GPIOs as possible.
The expansion port is now updated to 50 pins with the following pinout:

Image

The port includes a number of fixed and configurable I/O:
* 2 dedicated outputs from clock generator
* 6 I/Os directly connected to FPGA (EXP_IO_A)
* 2x16 lines (EXP_IO_B) connected to FPGA via 2 level shifters (both dynamically configurable as input or output)
* Fixed I2S and SPDIF audio outputs
* I2C
* 5V and 3.3V supplies

The number of I/Os is now sufficient for FT602Q, and with the fixed audio outputs it's possible to design an expansion card with FT602Q plus SPDIF/analog audio outputs in case audio cannot be embedded into UVC stream.

Oh, that's fantastic that you were able to accomodate that! It will simplify design for applications that require a 32-bit bus, as any SerDes, clock frequency change, or -domain crossing can now happen in FPGA on the Pro's side.
Independently from that I couldn't help but smile when I saw the full pin configuration for the first time, any eventuality seems to be accounted for :D


The Magewell USB Capture HDMI Plus, like its predecessor, uses the CYUSB3014 (FX3), at least for USB. I had kept an eye on this chip for a while, coming to know this made me more sanguine. In a basic test without noteworthy effort in terms of optimization, the FX3 sustained ~440MB/s in bulk mode over one endpoint in the direction from the device to the host, on the same laptop I referred to in my previous post. That's dummy data generated internally; like with the FT602Q, accepting data from the 32-bit bus has a specified upper bound of 400MB/s. As compared to the latter chip though, it's more expensive and overall just a more complex solution - it needs a firmware for example.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:59 am 



Joined: 30 Sep 2020
Posts: 1
Hello! Was just about to buy an OSSC when I read about the OSSC Pro in the works.

Is there an approximate timeframe for its release yet?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:27 am 


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altgraph wrote:
Is there an approximate timeframe for its release yet?
Some time next year, hopefully on the first half. The prototype round already got delayed by 1-2 months due to last minute changes (such as the expansion pinout update mentioned above) and lead time of selected DRAM chip, and there are still various items to resolve before release (not just technical ones). On the price side we've now received some initial quotes which indicate the sale price could settle somewhere on $350-550 range. The final number largely depends on which kind of case is designed/customized and how many units are manufactured at once.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:20 am 


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marqs wrote:
altgraph wrote:
Is there an approximate timeframe for its release yet?
Some time next year, hopefully on the first half. The prototype round already got delayed by 1-2 months due to last minute changes (such as the expansion pinout update mentioned above) and lead time of selected DRAM chip, and there are still various items to resolve before release (not just technical ones). On the price side we've now received some initial quotes which indicate the sale price could settle somewhere on $350-550 range. The final number largely depends on which kind of case is designed/customized and how many units are manufactured at once.


Very much looking forward to it oh and thanks alot also for implementing the feature that takes into account the native 480x272 resolution of the PSP.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 pm 


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Even at ~$500 usd, this promises to be a remarkable bargain. I hope gamers will give this machine plenty of thought before they respond with "sticker shock".

Even if there was a single machine out there with all these features (there isn't), it would cost thousands. I spent years (combing auction/overstock/thrift outlets) and a lot of money putting together a chain of multiple (often used) pro/prosumer machines; the OSSC Pro promises to replace and outperform most of my chain in a single inexpensive box!

So excited for this.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:24 pm 


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Yes, the price is a non-issue. Most of us here probably spend more on cables alone :D


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:46 pm 


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Price seems fair, but I would also appreciate if there was a bare-bones version that users could roll-their-own enclosures for. I think there's a lot of folks out there who prefer to do that anyway and will just discard the case it comes in.

marqs wrote:
there are still various items to resolve before release


Is there any software features still up in the air? A big consideration for me is the ability to either have a preset for windowed output to an HDCRT (960x540p) OR to be able to arbitrarily create the windowed resolution and save it as a preset.

Or are the features more or less locked-in and possibly available for consumption somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:09 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 554
Consider me the outlier then, I'm not paying $500 for a Pro...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:33 pm 


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Boutique product, boutique price. Not like you didn't warn us. Price is enough that I'll have to plan for it a bit more but not unexpected.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:08 pm 


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If the resale value of the base OSSC doesn't plummet and it's closer to the $400-450 mark that isn't too bad. I just worry that I won't need or take advantage of even half the features available, really the only big thing for me is the HDMI input, so I'm not sure how eager I'll be to upgrade right away.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:23 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I just worry that I won't need or take advantage of even half the features available


Right. Which is exactly why I'm looking to confirm a feature that would make it useful for me. It's a more advanced version of an already niche-use product; most people who already have a regular one are happy with it and spent time and money getting it going.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:29 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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I pity the person who is going to write the manual for this.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:37 pm 


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Quote:
I pity the person who is going to write the manual for this.

I volunteer :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:24 pm 



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strayan wrote:
I pity the person who is going to write the manual for this.
Is there a manual for the OSSC? I usually just ask here...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:21 am 


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ldeveraux wrote:
Is there a manual for the OSSC? I usually just ask here...


http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC

vol.2 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
I just worry that I won't need or take advantage of even half the features available


Right. Which is exactly why I'm looking to confirm a feature that would make it useful for me. It's a more advanced version of an already niche-use product; most people who already have a regular one are happy with it and spent time and money getting it going.


I'd say the general idea is that the original OSSC has fundamental limitations, such as not having enough memory to buffer a few fields / frames. This means it can never do the following:

- Provide high-quality deinterlacing which requires access to previous fields
- Do Yoko/Tate rotation, which requires buffering a full frame
- Normalize any compatible input signal to a standard refresh rate and resolution, which requires buffering a frame, reformatting it and then scanning it out in a different refresh rate
- Saving a screenshot to an SD card etc., requires a framebuffer (guess you could write a static input image line-by-line...)

And so on. The OSSC Pro should be able to do all of the above and has additional hardware features like extra inputs, an expansion port and a more powerful FPGA. This doesn't necessarily mean it'll have all or any of these features on day one, but the limits of what the OSSC hardware can do seems to have been hit and we need a new platform for all these more advanced things to be implemented.

Even though it is the best we currently have, the idea that the regular OSSC is already 'good enough' shows a strong lack of imagination of what a video processor for video games could be. We could apply machine learning to reconstruct the original high-res color signal from composite video, use post-process anti-aliasing techniques to improve early 3D games, add true CRT simulation using 4k HDR displays to really get the look right, we could have the video processor learn a console's defect like jail bars from a series of test patterns generated by something like the 240p test suite and compensate for these errors, and so on. Things that go far beyond even what the OSSC Pro will likely be able to do.

I think there's a huge demand for what the OSSC Pro will offer and even beyond that. I'd love to have a lag free HQ deinterlacer, Yoko/Tate rotation, the option to enable a 100% standard output signal, HDMI input, expansion modules with composite input etc. And looking at what machine learning is doing for video and 3D game upscaling and for improving image quality in smartphone cameras, I hope one day we get a video processor with these types of features as well.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:21 am 



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The fact that there is still significant demand (relative to the size of this market) for the Framemeister even at inflated prices should tell you a lot, especially considering that besides being composite/s-video ready, it is inferior to what the OSSC Pro will be in too many ways to list.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:33 am 


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No doubt there will be a demand for the Pro "...(relative to the size of this market)," buoyed by all those who have foregone a OSSC in lieu of the Pro when it finally comes to fruition.

But the fact remains that "...the regular OSSC is..." in fact "...already 'good enough'..." for a great number of people.

The more inclusive of features it is when it comes out, the more people's imagination will be stimulated.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:05 am 



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
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Not deterred by that pricing for a second. I'm willing to pay for quality.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:52 am 


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I think the price is completely fair. The barebones version is the standard OSSC which, if you've been following along, you'd know was never intended to be replaced by this device. It is a different market segment with a different purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:41 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I think the price is completely fair.


I don't think that has been contested? I said it sounds fair. That seems to be the reaction. Or were you just agreeing?

Quote:
The barebones version is the standard OSSC


The OSSC guy said they were toying around with the complexity of the enclosure. I meant bare-bones as in "board-level," not "feature reduced." Hell, I hope they pack it with all kinds of features. The more the better.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:32 am 


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I'm lucky I can afford it with the case but if a 'no-case' version is made available so people on tight budgets can get one then I'm all for it. The more people who have these the better for the community.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:07 pm 



Joined: 20 Apr 2018
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Location: St Louis, IL, USA
He said price can be much lower if they build a lot in the first batch.

I say do a Pre-order that way people can put thier money where their mouth is and hopefully we can drive the price down.

I'd say do the optimitic price and offer a refund if the pre-sale number isn't met to hit that number.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:52 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
I think the price is completely fair.


I don't think that has been contested? I said it sounds fair. That seems to be the reaction. Or were you just agreeing?

Quote:
The barebones version is the standard OSSC


The OSSC guy said they were toying around with the complexity of the enclosure. I meant bare-bones as in "board-level," not "feature reduced." Hell, I hope they pack it with all kinds of features. The more the better.

Yeah I was mostly just echoing the others while also trying to underscore that the pro is not a replacement for the standard. IMO most people would be just fine with the regular OSSC unless they have a use case that requires the extra features


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:40 am 



Joined: 23 Dec 2016
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Honestly, I feel like HDMI input is a pretty necessary feature. At this point I'm basically only going to use the YPbPr inputs for Saturn and PC Engine—everything else has a digital output mod available.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:47 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
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Sorry if this has been explained already but the thread is too long for me right now: How good as a Mister device for CRT usage can we expect this to be?

Also, 720p into 1440p with scanlines is definitely discarded/not possible?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:11 am 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Also, 720p into 1440p with scanlines is definitely discarded/not possible?


Would like to have confirmation for this as well.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:14 pm 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Sorry if this has been explained already but the thread is too long for me right now: How good as a Mister device for CRT usage can we expect this to be?
On paper it has all the key blocks to run various emulator cores, but you'll get your answer only after the devs have tinkered with the system. That's assuming they're interested in porting the cores & infrastructure to a new board in the first place.
Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Also, 720p into 1440p with scanlines is definitely discarded/not possible?
The upcoming prototype can output up to 1920x1440@60Hz, but there are plans to evaluate Sil1136 TX chip before release. Its 300MHz pclk support enabling modes such as 1920x1080@120Hz and 2560x1440@60Hz is tempting, but at the same time it's a major risk due to practically non-existent documentation and support. So even if it appears to work fine on an evaluation board, a lot of verification needs to be done to ensure coverage of all current and potential future requirements before it could be considered as a replacement for the current TX chip. That would mean yet another delay. Another challenge is the +50% performance requirement of such modes, meaning the FPGA model would possibly need to be higher speed grade which equals higher price. In short, 2560x1440@60Hz output might be possible but not without added delay and cost.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:44 pm 


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marqs wrote:
The upcoming prototype can output up to 1920x1440@60Hz


Is that set-in-stone upper-limit for x,y resolution, or is it based on pixel clock? For example, will we be able to do 3840x240p out to a CRT?


If it could, that would bring it in line with the capabilities of the raspberry pi 4 running Retroarch (but of course with the added benefit of scaling original hardware).


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