shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:04 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 390 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
Another feature request. :D The existing OSSC might already be capable of this, but if it is Im not aware of it.

Many laptop screens and smaller TVs are still 720p, which makes linedoubling 240p and inserting scanlines impossible unless huge borders are left on the top and the bottom of the display if integer scaled, and uneven scanlines if stretched to fill the screen. Would it be possible with the new hardware to add a line tripling mode for 240p, where one scanline is inserted after every linedoubled content line. This way you end up with a thin scanline and a thicker gameline, while being able to fill the height of the screen and which looks absolutely fantastic in practice.

Below is an image of my 768p plasma TV running Kega Fusion in which I was able to achieve the same effect, and as you can see it looks absolutely fantastic. Being a 768p screen, I did end up with small borders on the top and the bottom, but perfectly acceptable. I think there are still many laptops, smaller LCD TVs, and plasma displays out there which can benefit from such an implementation.

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:06 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 787
^That won't look bad especially on a plasma or PC CRT, but really the only way to get proper scanlines that will look natural and won't ever cut across part of the picture that should be displayed is to use integer scaling. And scanlines only really look right when both the blank line and the picture line are of the same thickness in principle, with the picture line varying in thickness depending on the brightness (or voltage on a CRT). This is already partially mimicked with hybrid scanlines.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:39 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
fernan1234 wrote:
^That won't look bad especially on a plasma or PC CRT, but really the only way to get proper scanlines that will look natural and won't ever cut across part of the picture that should be displayed is to use integer scaling. And scanlines only really look right when both the blank line and the picture line are of the same thickness in principle, with the picture line varying in thickness depending on the brightness (or voltage on a CRT). This is already partially mimicked with hybrid scanlines.


This is using integer scaling though. Minus the shadow mask-like horizontal granularity of the plasma shown here, the image will look identical on a 720p lcd. It does look very natural and retains more of the brightness than a 1x1 content to scanline ratio of linedoubled 240p with inserted scanlines.

This is true integer scaling, so no artifacts when scrolling vertical or horizontal. Another way to put it is that the image is line-tripled, but one pixel row of each now three-pixel high game pixel row is replaced with a black line. It looks great and there is no other way to get even, nice looking scanlines on 240p content on a 720p screen.

Some more images with the same scaling below.

Full size - https://imgur.com/pzuI3ZF
Image

Full size - https://imgur.com/TZjeqsp
Image

Full size - https://i.imgur.com/L7xOcmT.jpg
Image


Last edited by Josh128 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:45 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 238
fernan1234 wrote:
^That won't look bad especially on a plasma or PC CRT, but really the only way to get proper scanlines that will look natural and won't ever cut across part of the picture that should be displayed is to use integer scaling. And scanlines only really look right when both the blank line and the picture line are of the same thickness in principle, with the picture line varying in thickness depending on the brightness (or voltage on a CRT). This is already partially mimicked with hybrid scanlines.


As someone with a 480p plasma scanlines with blank and picture lines of the same thickness does not look good whereas like what I’m seeing with Josh’s pic though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
strayan wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
^That won't look bad especially on a plasma or PC CRT, but really the only way to get proper scanlines that will look natural and won't ever cut across part of the picture that should be displayed is to use integer scaling. And scanlines only really look right when both the blank line and the picture line are of the same thickness in principle, with the picture line varying in thickness depending on the brightness (or voltage on a CRT). This is already partially mimicked with hybrid scanlines.


As someone with a 480p plasma scanlines with blank and picture lines of the same thickness does not look good whereas like what I’m seeing with Josh’s pic though.


Probably precisely because the image is too darkened with a 1:1 scanline to gameline ratio. This fixes the brightness problem with the 1:2 ratio. Unfortunately, it wont work on a 480p plasma, only 720p or 768p.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:58 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 787
strayan wrote:
As someone with a 480p plasma scanlines with blank and picture lines of the same thickness does not look good whereas like what I’m seeing with Josh’s pic though.


You'll need a display that can get bright enough (or ideally have more contrast control) to compensate.

And as mentioned the ideal is for the picture line to be able to vary in thickness. In bright color areas it should look significantly thicker than the black line, as is the case on SD CRTs.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:01 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 72
iceman_0 wrote:
Thats great that are is going to be another OSSC at some point next year. Now I am uncertain though I should get the first OSSC soon as I have initially planned or if I should wait? I still have my Framemeister and I can wait for the better OSSC. And I think that's what I am going to do.

I can see it being really convenient to have both around. No need to resort to one of those SCART2HDMI boxes when you just need to test something somewhere else real quick.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 309
Location: Sweden
Josh128 wrote:
Another feature request. :D The existing OSSC might already be capable of this, but if it is Im not aware of it.


Yes, linetriple mode has been there since day one pretty much. No need to kick in open doors.
_________________
OSSC TV Compatibility report thread


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:03 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
Harrumph wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Another feature request. :D The existing OSSC might already be capable of this, but if it is Im not aware of it.


Yes, linetriple mode has been there since day one pretty much. No need to kick in open doors.


But this is not standard line triple mode. This is line triple mode modified to have one of the tripled output lines blanked or inserted with a black line. So you are saying the OSSC can already do this? If its true and the Pro carries over all the features from the original plus new features, thats fantastic.

Marqs can you please clarify if this is already possible?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:43 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 259
Any improvement updates for 480p content?

You guys should know by now I'm a real advocate for this range.
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:09 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 309
Location: Sweden
Josh128 wrote:
Harrumph wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Another feature request. :D The existing OSSC might already be capable of this, but if it is Im not aware of it.


Yes, linetriple mode has been there since day one pretty much. No need to kick in open doors.


But this is not standard line triple mode. This is line triple mode modified to have one of the tripled output lines blanked or inserted with a black line. So you are saying the OSSC can already do this?


You know, if you just read up on the OSSC one smidgeon, you and I wouldn’t have to waste eachothers time here.
Yes, OSSC has scanline function. Yes, it can darken one or any number of lines. Jeez.
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC
_________________
OSSC TV Compatibility report thread


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
Harrumph wrote:

You know, if you just read up on the OSSC one smidgeon, you and I wouldn’t have to waste eachothers time here.
Yes, OSSC has scanline function. Yes, it can darken one or any number of lines. Jeez.
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC


I have read up on it, and apparently missed it. Excuse me!

No need to be ugly to people homie. Life is short, lighten up.


Last edited by Josh128 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:33 pm 



Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 19
Since everyone's requesting features here, can I ask to implement Blargg's filters please? I'm probably the only person in the world who wants that, but with the new fpga it shouldn't be too hard, should it? :wink:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1477
headlesshobbs wrote:
Any improvement updates for 480p content?

You guys should know by now I'm a real advocate for this range.


I'm really excited about some good filter options for 3d 480p games on Dreamcast, Wii, and Gamecube. DCHDMI has some optional filters that look very nice for some games. The DCHDMI must have a frame buffer, because the results are better than the old OSSC filter firmware. I'm hoping the OSSC Pro will have filters like that for any console.

The only other potential solution was the mCable--and I was very disappointed. The Redguy OSSC and DCHDMI filters are better than an mCable.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:27 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2325
I would really like to see post-processing AA for 480p sources without all other shit mCable does. I'm not expecting anything though (either about the feature being implemented or it looking good for many games).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 52
Location: Frederick, MD
While we're requesting things I'd really really love to see downscaling as an option. I would love to be able to get modern consoles working on my BVM and PVMs better than I currently do with my Corio scaler.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:32 am 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Canada
Josh128 wrote:
Harrumph wrote:

You know, if you just read up on the OSSC one smidgeon, you and I wouldn’t have to waste eachothers time here.
Yes, OSSC has scanline function. Yes, it can darken one or any number of lines. Jeez.
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC


I have read up on it, and apparently missed it. Excuse me!

No need to be ugly to people homie. Life is short, lighten up.


Hey don't feel bad
I too didn't know we had this option

To be honest im still learning how to use the current OSSC and all its features

For any ordinary person it's difficult to understand every feature the original was capable of


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:32 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7181
Location: block
It's kind of incredible that you guys didn't know though. :shock:

The combined horizontal + vertical creates a pretty good CRT-like look, which you can customize and even use some sub-lines tricks to get alternative looks (not mentioned in the wiki: 6% 'erases' a line where they cross)

And tweaking Pre-ADC can help eliminate scaling artifacts, at the cost of more or less brightness.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
Xyga wrote:
It's kind of incredible that you guys didn't know though. :shock:

The combined horizontal + vertical creates a pretty good CRT-like look, which you can customize and even use some sub-lines tricks to get alternative looks (not mentioned in the wiki: 6% 'erases' a line where they cross)

And tweaking Pre-ADC can help eliminate scaling artifacts, at the cost of more or less brightness.


Had I known, I'd have bought one years ago when I was considering a FM, which is not capable of the feature. Now, i'll probably wait for the Pro as I also want the 240p120 function.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Canada
Xyga wrote:
It's kind of incredible that you guys didn't know though. :shock:

The combined horizontal + vertical creates a pretty good CRT-like look, which you can customize and even use some sub-lines tricks to get alternative looks (not mentioned in the wiki: 6% 'erases' a line where they cross)

And tweaking Pre-ADC can help eliminate scaling artifacts, at the cost of more or less brightness.


Hey I'm still trying to figure out how to use those profiles for optimal timing.

I do use my OSSC to play exclusively on a CRT Monitor though. I haven't really used it much on any sort of LCD screen.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7181
Location: block
@Josh128: I mean it's surprising because the OSSC has been all over retro gaming communities, even the press a bit, and the thread here almost continuously busy for years since the announcement.
Didn't you guys know that being off the internet and miss reading stuff is forbidden!? :mrgreen:

@Shelcoof: Ah of course optimal timings add a ton of complexity. One does not really need them for flat panel use though and the CRT-like effect works better on default generics anyway.
Scanlines options still have several uses for a CRT setup too, of course.
Otherwise if skipping the optimal timings what remains are pretty self-explanatory menus and features, I've seen many AV devices immensely more complex and hard to figure than the OSSC.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:25 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Canada
Lol the only thing I knew about scanline options on the OSSC was the buttons to turn them on and increase and decrease the intensity.

Other than that I have no idea how to customize them further.

About two weeks ago I learned how to use the OSSC as a scart to HDMI to Component converter to use on my SD CRT TV.

And I learned that there was a 240p pass through option too lol

I've had the OSSC for years and just learned that I:could do that now lol


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:41 pm 



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 34
I've had a hard time getting the new vertical scanlines to look decent. Perhaps it's because I'm using optimal timings? I've been doing it on an old computer monitor in 5x mode.

In time, I'd really love to see some default options for things like scanlines. I know that's a community effort but it'd be really nice to just select 'PVM', 'consumer Trinitron', etc. for different looks/styles. This is one thing software emulators really have advantage on real hardware/ossc. I don't know if we'll be able to get to that same level without a GPU but I'd like to see better scanlines in general if possible.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:01 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7181
Location: block
Well that's what they do with generic modes...

With x3 it looks like standard definition trinitron, while x4 and x5 look like finer PVM/BVM.

You'll get more or less defeatable scaling artifacts/patterns in any multiple due to display scaling, and while tweaking (like with Pre-ADC) can fix that to some extent in x3, there is little hope in higher multiples, but that can't be helped.

For people who have a monitor fully compatible with x5 1080 or 1200 (matching pixels 1:1) there is no problem, although only the finer columns are available since there is no option to halve the number to make it look like a standard def like in x3, so you get only the higher-TVL look.

But besides that case scenario where there is no scaling from the display, not even optimal modes will help, and it is impossible to make better-looking default settings for everyone that way (because results will be different for every display)

Personally, using a flat panel I've found so little reasons to use optimal modes that I've gone almost full generic now.
Without scanlines I find the oversampled scaling often more pleasing, and with scanlines (H+V for crt look) I find the generic modes to be much more fitting and realistic.
The only time I still waste is in custom scanlines settings (can't get around every OCD-inducing feature, can I? ^^)
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:16 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 69
Shelcoof wrote:
Lol the only thing I knew about scanline options on the OSSC was the buttons to turn them on and increase and decrease the intensity.

Other than that I have no idea how to customize them further.

About two weeks ago I learned how to use the OSSC as a scart to HDMI to Component converter to use on my SD CRT TV.

And I learned that there was a 240p pass through option too lol

I've had the OSSC for years and just learned that I:could do that now lol


Just curious, what do you use that for? Do you not have a plain ol' SCART to Component? Anything cool you do with it, or just use passthrough and nothing else?

The reasons I ask is because I've been intending to do this just for kicks/laughs at using such a silly overly-complex setup, but not to leave it set up like that. I am somewhat curious to see what the scanline filters will look like on a 15kHz CRT, but am under the impression there's not much else I could really do with it...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:26 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7181
Location: block
There's a misunderstnding maybe, of course they're not for 15khz CRTs...
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:46 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 69
Xyga wrote:
There's a misunderstnding maybe, of course they're not for 15khz CRTs...


Oh, I know that, but I'm pretty sure they'll display if it's just on passthru mode...? Still gotta try it for the lulz


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:18 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 734
kitty666cats wrote:
Xyga wrote:
There's a misunderstnding maybe, of course they're not for 15khz CRTs...


Oh, I know that, but I'm pretty sure they'll display if it's just on passthru mode...? Still gotta try it for the lulz


Im not sure how the OSSC accomplishes its scanlines, but shader-based GPU and CPU based scanlines and other effects on emulators are totally out of whack when you try to display them at 240p.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Canada
kitty666cats wrote:
Shelcoof wrote:
Lol the only thing I knew about scanline options on the OSSC was the buttons to turn them on and increase and decrease the intensity.

Other than that I have no idea how to customize them further.

About two weeks ago I learned how to use the OSSC as a scart to HDMI to Component converter to use on my SD CRT TV.

And I learned that there was a 240p pass through option too lol

I've had the OSSC for years and just learned that I:could do that now lol


Just curious, what do you use that for? Do you not have a plain ol' SCART to Component? Anything cool you do with it, or just use passthrough and nothing else?

The reasons I ask is because I've been intending to do this just for kicks/laughs at using such a silly overly-complex setup, but not to leave it set up like that. I am somewhat curious to see what the scanline filters will look like on a 15kHz CRT, but am under the impression there's not much else I could really do with it...



You talking about me using the OSSC to convert my RGB Scart connector to HDMI to Component to use on my Sony WEGA SD CRT TV?

The reason why I ended up setting it up this way is because the cheap clone RGB Scart to Component Adapter I've been using wasn't properly calibrated and the colors were slightly off.

Using the OSSC 240p pass-through > HDMI > Component fixed the colors.
My search to find the best Scart to Component adapter lead me to a post where Fudoh recommended this option.

I now have a Shinybow Scart to Component converter that works well but before this I used the OSSC method.

Hope that explains it :)

Edit: I don't need to use scanline filter on 240p as there are natural scanlines already. However though when using on non SD CRTs I do use the scanline features on the OSSC


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:30 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 69
Shelcoof wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
Shelcoof wrote:
Lol the only thing I knew about scanline options on the OSSC was the buttons to turn them on and increase and decrease the intensity.

Other than that I have no idea how to customize them further.

About two weeks ago I learned how to use the OSSC as a scart to HDMI to Component converter to use on my SD CRT TV.

And I learned that there was a 240p pass through option too lol

I've had the OSSC for years and just learned that I:could do that now lol


Just curious, what do you use that for? Do you not have a plain ol' SCART to Component? Anything cool you do with it, or just use passthrough and nothing else?

The reasons I ask is because I've been intending to do this just for kicks/laughs at using such a silly overly-complex setup, but not to leave it set up like that. I am somewhat curious to see what the scanline filters will look like on a 15kHz CRT, but am under the impression there's not much else I could really do with it...



You talking about me using the OSSC to convert my RGB Scart connector to HDMI to Component to use on my Sony WEGA SD CRT TV?

The reason why I ended up setting it up this way is because the cheap clone RGB Scart to Component Adapter I've been using wasn't properly calibrated and the colors were slightly off.

Using the OSSC 240p pass-through > HDMI > Component fixed the colors.
My search to find the best Scart to Component adapter lead me to a post where Fudoh recommended this option.

I now have a Shinybow Scart to Component converter that works well but before this I used the OSSC method.

Hope that explains it :)

Edit: I don't need to use scanline filter on 240p as there are natural scanlines already. However though when using on non SD CRTs I do use the scanline features on the OSSC


Okay, word! Exactly as I assumed. I still wanna try it sometime and see how wacky it looks trying to use the scanline feature anyway, heh. If only just for a minute. But yeah, I'm sure on passthrough it looks much better than the CSY-2100 clones (though the one I got way back ended up looking fine right out of the box!)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 390 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Einzelherz, Extrems and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group