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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:31 pm 


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Xer Xian wrote:
The double-image effect of repeated frames on a CRT cannot be alleviated with BFI.


This is not true. After understanding the double-image effect and now having become proficient at identifying it (IMO still subtle and still only prevalent on fast moving objects), I utlilzed the BFI feature in RA and the result was 100% elimination of the illusion. The only drawback was a slightly darkened image in comparison to not using BFI-- the brightness level was still perfectly acceptable (without even touching any brightness settings on the monitor) and no additional light/dark strobing effect was perceptible to me. It simply appeared to the naked eye as a subtle darkening of the image. It is definitely there, as I captured it with the high speed camera, but I would still consider this a 100% acceptable alternative for anyone who is bothered by double image illusion.

Lets be real here though. Any kind of post-processing of the source console output to anything other than a 15KHz CRT will have its advantages and its drawbacks. Some people even used to complain that composite is better than RGB for Megadrive due to the affect the clarity has on some transparency effects. Please understand that Im not looking to get into a drawn-out argument or pissing match over the plus's and minus's of this method of processing vs any other. This is undoubtedly a niche implementation for a niche device for a niche community. I dont really understand though, is why anyone would want to argue against an added useful functionality for this unit with the potential give such fabulous results if it can be properly worked out. Marqs has already said it should be technically possible with the hardware it will already include, so why campaign against it? Why would anyone want a less functional unit?

Below are links to some YT vids of SMW without the BFI at full speed, with the BFI at full speed, and with the BFI in slow mo. Note the BFI looks like a non-starter in 120fps slow mo, but rest assured that it reallly does look extremely good in real time, there is not even any noticeable flicker.

Full Speed no BFI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxqtDLK7OCU

Full Speed w/ BFI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJxSh7_r2Q

Slo-mo w/ BFI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfTMXsUL8X4


Last edited by Josh128 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:38 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:39 pm 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
As for the scanlines, all VGA monitor scanlines are "too smooth". They don't the same sawtooth appearance you get from a 15kHz consumer television or professional monitor.


The high TVL of the BVM above looks extremely similar to what Im seeing here on my set below.


The pics you just posted precisely confirms orange808 statement, though. There are differences, and the VGA lines look smoother. But if someone prefers hi-end BVM's picture vs. a good arcade/TV set's, I don't see many reasons not to prefer the VGA monitor's, tbh. Size matters, anyway. At around 17'', this may work. Go over 20'', and it's totally overkill for these graphics.


Let me be clear Im not disagreeing with him on the courseness of the horizontal lines of a 15KHz TV vs an SVGA monitor. What I am disagreeing on is that there is a large tangible difference between the SVGA in 240p120 mode vs a BVM. I disagree that these pictures are not similar. The TVL of a BVM is more similar to an SVGA monitor than a 15KHz NTSC Trinitron TV. In any case they were taken from different cameras from different angles. I can look for more BVM images that better represent its TVL if needed. Its my thought that anyone who likes the look of a BVM will likely enjoy the look of this implementation. From what you wrote above I think you are in agreement there.

Without a doubt, if someone prefers the courser look of say a KVxxFV310 over a BVM, they will most likely also prefer it over an SVGA 240p120 monitor. That is simply a matter of preference, its not a knock on the technical image clarity of the SVGA monitor.


Last edited by Josh128 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:46 pm 


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zarkFR wrote:
Hi guys,

Sorry if it sounds dumb, but could the OSSC Pro have, in its upscaler mode, an Antialiasing algorithm for 480p (and maybe 720p?), something similar to the mClassic from Marseille ?

(Despite what people say, AA from mClassic is quite good (I have one). Maybe not 100$ worth, but still a very noticeable improvement - and yes the gamma change is shit)

Also, third picture shows only one 3.5 audio jack. Could this connector output passthrough audio from scart (if scart is selected as input) or component (if comp is selected as input) ?

(sorry for bad english !)


Z.



C'est possible mais non confirm (Sorry for my bad French)

VGP wrote:
Effects such as deblur for SNES, composite faux transparency re-processing or effects such as those introduced by hardware such as the mCable should all be possible.

https://videogameperfection.com/2020/01 ... is-coming/


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:31 pm 



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The SNES needs deblur? Maybe that was a typo and was supposed to be N64. The SNES can use pseudo transparencies, so blending those would be useful (the MiSTer SNES core can already do this). Composite blending for Genesis and other systems where a benefit is gained from it would be great, as well as more specific dithering blending that can achieve similar results while maintaining a sharp RGB-quality picture (though I've only seen this done on emulators using shaders, and it's still not perfect).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:07 pm 


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Quote:
What model of DVDO did you use? I'd like to try it out with less latency than my other programmable video processors. :)

VP50Pro, but íf I recall correctly, the processing time jumps up, since (for unknown reasons) 120Hz output doesn't get framelocked on the DVDO.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:22 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Let me be clear Im not disagreeing with him on the courseness of the horizontal lines of a 15KHz TV vs an SVGA monitor. What I am disagreeing on is that there is a large tangible difference between the SVGA in 240p120 mode vs a BVM. I disagree that these pictures are not similar. The TVL of a BVM is more similar to an SVGA monitor than a 15KHz NTSC Trinitron TV. In any case they were taken from different cameras from different angles. I can look for more BVM images that better represent its TVL if needed. Its my thought that anyone who likes the look of a BVM will likely enjoy the look of this implementation. From what you wrote above I think you are in agreement there.

Without a doubt, if someone prefers the courser look of say a KVxxFV310 over a BVM, they will most likely also prefer it over an SVGA 240p120 monitor. That is simply a matter of preference, its not a knock on the technical image clarity of the SVGA monitor.


I think we all agree then. The good aspect of a device like the OSSC Pro is that, if 240p-120hz is implemented, there's potential to get someday an overlay option to simulate the aforementioned courseness for VGA CRTs.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:44 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
I think the question here is what's wrong with line-doubling 240p and adding full-intensity fake scanlines? The OSSC does this very well and you'd be hard pressed to tell it apart from true 240p on a multisync CRT.

it's not this good. When you double content to 480p, the CRT will still add in it's own scanlines betwen each source line of pixels, so the scanlines you see end up being more intense than what you get by feeding 240p120 to the screen. By feeding 480p with 100% scanlines you basically get "active line - natural dark line - fake dark pixel line - natural dark line - active line", so the ratio between active and non-active lines is a bit off compared to a source signal without fake scanlines.

This is probably due to dot pitch control, not due to any "dark scanline" effect you're describing - black is the electron gun effectively off (provided brightness is set correctly and screen voltage isn't too high), that's just not how CRTs work. On a monitor without dot pitch control (where you can see the screen geometry shrink and grow as it goes from dark colours to say a white background) there wouldn't be a difference between scanlines on a true 240p image or alternating black lines on a 480p image, but on a VGA monitor there will be a difference as the dot pitch control is preventing the active lines from blooming into the black scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:21 pm 



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Things I'm looking forward to from the HDMI input if the OSSC Pro proves capable:
Deinterlacing 480i from a progressive frame out of UltraHDMI.
Taking 1600x1200 from UltraHDMI and matting it to 1920x1200 for 16:10 displays with locked aspect controls (Hanspree 27" sets, for example).
Rescaling 720p from UperGrafx to get 5x240 with a corrected aspect ratio. I'd like to see it used for 1920x1200 for 16:10 displays, 1920x1080 (cropped top and bottom) for consumer displays, and 1600x1200 (cropped sides) for displays like Dell 2007FP... all with integer line multiples from 240p.

The idea of putting SCART inputs on the sides and all others on the back makes a lot of sense. I like it but I wouldn't be opposed to one DE-15 on the front to serve like a television's front or side-mounted convenience ports. You know: for temporarily connecting a console or portable device that's going back in storage or leaving when you are done. If not, then how about a Framemeister-compatible Mini-DIN on the front? We could even hide it behind a door/plug/cover. ;) I'm saying this as someone who has never had an XRGB Mini FM or any FM cables so I'm definitely not suggesting this for any personal reasons.

I can't wait for this and plan to make it the centerpiece of the RGB+HDMI gaming center I'm building out of an old retail display. Super excited!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:21 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
The SNES needs deblur? Maybe that was a typo and was supposed to be N64. The SNES can use pseudo transparencies, so blending those would be useful (the MiSTer SNES core can already do this). Composite blending for Genesis and other systems where a benefit is gained from it would be great, as well as more specific dithering blending that can achieve similar results while maintaining a sharp RGB-quality picture (though I've only seen this done on emulators using shaders, and it's still not perfect).

presumably refrring to the anti-lpf effect already present on the ossc?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:37 pm 



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CZroe wrote:
Things I'm looking forward to from the HDMI input if the OSSC Pro proves capable:
Deinterlacing 480i from a progressive frame out of UltraHDMI.

How would one untangle a bob-deinterlaced 480p image?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:44 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Things I'm looking forward to from the HDMI input if the OSSC Pro proves capable:
Deinterlacing 480i from a progressive frame out of UltraHDMI.

How would one untangle a bob-deinterlaced 480p image?

The interpolated lines sit in between the original lines, so just dropping every other line effectively turns it back into 480i.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:45 pm 


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zarkFR wrote:
Also, third picture shows only one 3.5 audio jack. Could this connector output passthrough audio from scart (if scart is selected as input) or component (if comp is selected as input) ?
SCART audio can be passed to 3.5mm jack as there's an audio switch IC on the PCB.

Speaking of connectivity, I've reserved pin 4 of VGA connector for video-level sync input so that people with BNC cables can use a custom BNC-VGA adapter for robust connectivity. TTL-level csync can be connected to VGA pin 13 as usual too. SCART pins 10 and 12 are similarly reserved for vsync/hsync which enables running the full set of signals via SCART cable for those who prefer so.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:09 pm 


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Quote:
How would one untangle a bob-deinterlaced 480p image?

Quote:
The interpolated lines sit in between the original lines, so just dropping every other line effectively turns it back into 480i.

indeed. Has been available on some DVDOs as a re-interlacing function called "PREP".


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:53 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Things I'm looking forward to from the HDMI input if the OSSC Pro proves capable:
Deinterlacing 480i from a progressive frame out of UltraHDMI.

How would one untangle a bob-deinterlaced 480p image?

UltraHDMI seems to just output the interlaced fields as a progressive frame, complete with all the combing artifacts you'd expect. Thankfully, most 480i content on N64 is menus and pause screens where the higher resolution is apparent but you won't notice combing as long as things are still. 480i gameplay with settings optimal for integer-scaling 240p is still comb-city.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:55 pm 



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 16
Something that occurred to me - will the base clock of the FPGA and the 20 or so GPIO pins give sufficient bandwidth to support an NDI video stream? That could allow for capture card-less footage capture on the network. It might only be useful in a couple specific use cases, but as an add-on board could be very valuable to the right crowd.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:15 am 



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marqs wrote:
SCART audio can be passed to 3.5mm jack as there's an audio switch IC on the PCB.


Hi marqs, thank you for your answer, but I not sure to understand what you mean.

I asked this because with OSSC 1.6 I use the scart input for many consoles, and the component input for the wii. I dont want to use the audio from HDMI, so for the component I have an adapter RCA to 3.5 jack, and for SCART I modified my cable to extract audio to 3.5 jack. So I have 2 jack and I have to switch depending on the console I want to play.
On OSSC Pro I see you added audio to the component input, so I wanted to know if the 3.5 jack port could output audio automatically (if input is scart, output audio from scart, if input is component, output audio from component) so I will not need to switch jack every time. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I cant do it with standard OSSC :o

Thanks again for all your work.

(and sorry for bad english !)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:44 pm 



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Posts: 259
I do know that GCN/Wii don't have optical and it's not like all DVD players have that option even though I'm just throwing that one out for consideration.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:06 pm 


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zarkFR: if I don't haphazardly overestimate what that audio switch IC will be capable of, you'll at least be able to choose via the menu which source is connected to the 3.5mm jack (which is awesome by the way Image).

Letting it switch automatically on top of that would merely be a matter of coding that functionality, which anyone would be able to contribute in principle, since it's open source (still easily the best aspect of this endeavor overall in my opinion!).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:54 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 155
mufunyo wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
I think the question here is what's wrong with line-doubling 240p and adding full-intensity fake scanlines? The OSSC does this very well and you'd be hard pressed to tell it apart from true 240p on a multisync CRT.

it's not this good. When you double content to 480p, the CRT will still add in it's own scanlines betwen each source line of pixels, so the scanlines you see end up being more intense than what you get by feeding 240p120 to the screen. By feeding 480p with 100% scanlines you basically get "active line - natural dark line - fake dark pixel line - natural dark line - active line", so the ratio between active and non-active lines is a bit off compared to a source signal without fake scanlines.

This is probably due to dot pitch control, not due to any "dark scanline" effect you're describing - black is the electron gun effectively off (provided brightness is set correctly and screen voltage isn't too high), that's just not how CRTs work. On a monitor without dot pitch control (where you can see the screen geometry shrink and grow as it goes from dark colours to say a white background) there wouldn't be a difference between scanlines on a true 240p image or alternating black lines on a 480p image, but on a VGA monitor there will be a difference as the dot pitch control is preventing the active lines from blooming into the black scanlines.

Wait, you're calling high voltage regulation "dot pitch control"? I have 4 CRT monitors, and 2 of them exhibit this issue because they simply dont have high voltage regulation circuits. And despite being annoying as hell, I dont think it would impact overall image quality at all in the way you're describing.

I have a bunch of pictures of my CRT monitors running linedoubled 240p sources @100% scanlines through the XRGB-3 and they all line up perfectly (more so on the Trinitron tbh).
What I believe fudoh was talking about was "480p scanlines", that are visible on most high resolution CRT monitors at 680x480. So when you add the fake scanlines they end up being thicker because of the 480p scanlines and the added scanlines, which doesnt happen in a real 15kHz CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:06 pm 



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Posts: 72
zarkFR wrote:
marqs wrote:
SCART audio can be passed to 3.5mm jack as there's an audio switch IC on the PCB.


Hi marqs, thank you for your answer, but I not sure to understand what you mean.

I asked this because with OSSC 1.6 I use the scart input for many consoles, and the component input for the wii. I dont want to use the audio from HDMI, so for the component I have an adapter RCA to 3.5 jack, and for SCART I modified my cable to extract audio to 3.5 jack. So I have 2 jack and I have to switch depending on the console I want to play.
On OSSC Pro I see you added audio to the component input, so I wanted to know if the 3.5 jack port could output audio automatically (if input is scart, output audio from scart, if input is component, output audio from component) so I will not need to switch jack every time. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I cant do it with standard OSSC :o

Thanks again for all your work.

(and sorry for bad english !)


Did you really have to modify your SCART cable to extract audio? I have the older OSSC with DVI and the audio upgrade board and audio from the SCART input comes right out the 3.5mm jack even without modification. That's what it's there for, since my model didn't originally do HDMI audio. I thought it could be used as an input or output in the HDMI version.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:03 pm 


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tongshadow wrote:
mufunyo wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
it's not this good. When you double content to 480p, the CRT will still add in it's own scanlines betwen each source line of pixels, so the scanlines you see end up being more intense than what you get by feeding 240p120 to the screen. By feeding 480p with 100% scanlines you basically get "active line - natural dark line - fake dark pixel line - natural dark line - active line", so the ratio between active and non-active lines is a bit off compared to a source signal without fake scanlines.

This is probably due to dot pitch control, not due to any "dark scanline" effect you're describing - black is the electron gun effectively off (provided brightness is set correctly and screen voltage isn't too high), that's just not how CRTs work. On a monitor without dot pitch control (where you can see the screen geometry shrink and grow as it goes from dark colours to say a white background) there wouldn't be a difference between scanlines on a true 240p image or alternating black lines on a 480p image, but on a VGA monitor there will be a difference as the dot pitch control is preventing the active lines from blooming into the black scanlines.

Wait, you're calling high voltage regulation "dot pitch control"? I have 4 CRT monitors, and 2 of them exhibit this issue because they simply dont have high voltage regulation circuits. And despite being annoying as hell, I dont think it would impact overall image quality at all in the way you're describing.

I have a bunch of pictures of my CRT monitors running linedoubled 240p sources @100% scanlines through the XRGB-3 and they all line up perfectly (more so on the Trinitron tbh).
What I believe fudoh was talking about was 480p scanlines, that are visible on most high resolution CRT monitors at 680x480. So when you add the fake scanlines they end up being thicker because of the 480p scanlines and the added scanlines, which doesnt happen in a real 15kHz CRT.


You are correct, this is exactly what Fudoh is talking about, its not about voltage regulation. Natural black scanlines are present on 31+KHz VGA monitors at 480p, they are just thinner than the natural black scanlines at 240p on a 15KHz monitor or TV. So absolutely, those lines will add to the thickness of the artificial 100% scanlines if that method is used. I find it results in an overly darkened or thick scanline on 240p content at a 480p resolution at 100% scanlines, which is presumably why options were added in emulators and processors to use 75%, 50%, and 25% scanlines.

This is not an issue at 240p120, as the scanlines are 100% natural and indeed appear as such.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:55 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
You are correct, this is exactly what Fudoh is talking about, its not about voltage regulation. Natural black scanlines are present on 31+KHz VGA monitors at 480p, they are just thinner than the natural black scanlines at 240p on a 15KHz monitor or TV. So absolutely, those lines will add to the thickness of the artificial 100% scanlines if that method is used. I find it results in an overly darkened or thick scanline on 240p content at a 480p resolution at 100% scanlines, which is presumably why options were added in emulators and processors to use 75%, 50%, and 25% scanlines.

This is not an issue at 240p120, as the scanlines are 100% natural and indeed appear as such.

Please describe to me how a VGA monitor drawing 240 lines at 120Hz is different from it drawing 240 lines with blank lines in between at 60hz, other than the obvious difference in refresh rate. Blank lines are not drawn, they are effectively gaps, they have no thickness other than what is left over by the active lines. Active line thickness is dictated by screen voltage + beam focus.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:58 pm 


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Everyone knows you want frame rate doubling to ~120Hz scanout. Start a new thread. It's evolved from a feature request into a tangent.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:05 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Everyone knows you want frame rate doubling to ~120Hz scanout. Start a new thread. It's evolved from a feature request into a tangent.


Agreed. The discussion/debate about it here was healthy and informative but has run its course. I'll start a new thread if I get more data or info worth sharing.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:11 pm 


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Quote:
Please describe to me how a VGA monitor drawing 240 lines at 120Hz is different from it drawing 240 lines with blank lines in between at 60hz, other than the obvious difference in refresh rate.

it's the same. My comment above was about the visible difference between 240p120 and 480p60 with 100% software scanlines..


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:17 pm 



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Should I buy a MiSTer now or just be more patient and wait for the OSSC pro being released in a nice aluminium case...something that looks like a DVDO IScan HD but with 2 Joystick Ports at the front...preferably 2 Saturn ports... that fits nice in every living room, next to your laser disc or PS2 that are being deinterlaced or xbox360 being downscaled for your crt? ...of course also with the ability to play all MiSTer cores

such a device would become the absolute center for every retro gamer! wouldn`t it? This would be such a smart and sick move IMO


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:54 pm 


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Would there be any problems with the HDMI handling out of spec resolutions? I don't think 240p/480i is technically part of the HDMI standard, are they? And then of course other oddball resolutions HDMI-modded consoles might spit out.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:03 pm 



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svensonson wrote:
Should I buy a MiSTer now or just be more patient and wait for the OSSC pro being released in a nice aluminium case...something that looks like a DVDO IScan HD but with 2 Joystick Ports at the front...preferably 2 Saturn ports... that fits nice in every living room, next to your laser disc or PS2 that are being deinterlaced or xbox360 being downscaled for your crt? ...of course also with the ability to play all MiSTer cores

such a device would become the absolute center for every retro gamer! wouldn`t it? This would be such a smart and sick move IMO


As far as I know the OSSC pro doesn't have a controller interface so unless you like playing your MiSTer games with the ir OSSC remote I don't believe either of them make what the other offers redundant. Not that the people developing MiSTer make any money at all let alone off the hardware so it wouldn't be an issue to have more things that run MiSTer cores it is just that not every fpga device has the interfaces necessary to make playing games on them a good experience.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:09 pm 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
Would there be any problems with the HDMI handling out of spec resolutions? I don't think 240p/480i is technically part of the HDMI standard, are they? And then of course other oddball resolutions HDMI-modded consoles might spit out.


They are. 480i60 (4:3) is CEA mode 6. 240p60 was retroactively added as CEA mode 8. HDMI is perfectly capable of passing them around, as long as the refresh rates are not too goofy or have been sufficiently normalized. Not sure about the HDMI-modded consoles but they should be fine too, usually those are released tweaked for max compatibility with most flat panels.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:20 pm 


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OSSC 240p and 480i passthrough seems to work with many devices. It works with a Kramer FC-49, switch, and my splitter. Even the Darbee DVP-5000s accepts the OSSC 240p HDMI signal, processes it, and passes it along (and that was unexpected).
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