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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:15 am 


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XSync-1 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with me bringing up this discussion.

A long time ago I read a little detail about the Freemasons and I thought it was weird at that time: They prohibit any discussion of politics or religion while in their meeting place (lodge). I think I can see their reasoning now - it leads to escalating off-topic discussions.

fernan1234 wrote:
This is something that I've been wondering for a while. I may be asking the wrong question or asking it wrongly, but how do video processors like the OSSC handle conversion from the Rec. 601 colors of the SD sources that we use to Rec. 709 of the FHD that they output and that most flat panels expect?

I don't know how the OSSC handles it, but some commercial video processors properly convert the color space when they convert across the 601/709 "border". It's just a 3x3 matrix multiplication per pixel and can be folded into the matrixm multiplications needed for RGB/YCbCr/RGB conversions or contrast/saturation adjustments.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:50 am 



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Color management should be done in the same segment as scaling since non-standardized metadata doesn't always work as intended (for instance a BT.601 tagged HD signal will probably be forced to BT.709 by most displays).

BT.601/709 are only for use with YUV, never RGB. And the OSSC takes care of all the color management as long as you properly select BT.601 or BT.709 for your YUV input. All the video output from the OSSC should be displayed in sRGB for proper viewing. While BT.709 and sRGB share the same primaries, the standards themselves are different in how the signals are treated. I am not sure however if the OSSC properly uses EBU or SMPTE-C gamuts respectively when selecting BT.601, as the standard covers both of them.


Last edited by nissling on Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:28 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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Kez wrote:
I'm not sure if hobby products like OSSC are a realistic target for this campaign, but it scares me that people are completely dismissing the concerns as invalid.

I don't think anyone are? They just are dismissing XSync-1's approach to the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:00 pm 


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Kez wrote:
People are living in a state of constant unimaginable fear and suffering to support our trivial hobbies and leisure activities.

They are living in this state due to their own countrymen propping up a totalitarian oppressive government. It has fuck all do to with us or our hobbies.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:36 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
They are living in this state due to their own countrymen propping up a totalitarian oppressive government. It has fuck all do to with us or our hobbies.


I'm not saying retro gaming enthusiastics in particular, but essentially everyone in the developed world. Phones, TVs, the majority of household items, food, etc. It is cheap and easy for us at somebody else's expense. If you know something is produced unethically and you still pay for it, you are somewhat morally culpable. Buying power is all we have. If someone steals something and you buy it from them knowing it's stolen, that is an unethical act. Similarly if someone uses slave labour to make something and you knowingly still choose to buy it, you are actively condoning slave labour.

We are going wildly off topic here, Unseen made a very good point I think.. apologies. :p


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:33 pm 


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Kez wrote:

I'm not saying retro gaming enthusiastics in particular, but essentially everyone in the developed world. Phones, TVs, the majority of household items, food, etc. It is cheap and easy for us at somebody else's expense. If you know something is produced unethically and you still pay for it, you are somewhat morally culpable. Buying power is all we have. If someone steals something and you buy it from them knowing it's stolen, that is an unethical act. Similarly if someone uses slave labour to make something and you knowingly still choose to buy it, you are actively condoning slave labour.

We are going wildly off topic here, Unseen made a very good point I think.. apologies. :p


This is definitely the wrong place for a discussion like this. If the Pro does really well it might sell several hundred units in its first year or so of production. The idea that producing it anywhere outside of China will have any kind of effect at all on the labor environment or the governments oppressive stance on workers Hong Kong, the Uighurs, etc., is extremely naive.

To send any kind of message you would need to target a product with orders of magnitude more sales than the OSSC Pro could ever dream of. Think iPhones. Its one of the reasons I dont buy Apple products. People leaping to their deaths from the top of Foxconn production facilities over slave labor and wages building fucking cell phones that hundreds of millions of sheople eagerly pay $1200 every couple of years for.

Want to make a difference? Target Apple, not Marqs.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:40 pm 


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1. Click here -->> viewforum.php?f=3
2. Click "New Topic"
3. Profit.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:05 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
1. Click here -->> viewforum.php?f=3
2. Click "New Topic"
3. Profit.

Have you seen that guy's threads? Please don't give him ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:51 pm 


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Kez wrote:
I'm not sure if hobby products like OSSC are a realistic target for this campaign, but it scares me that people are completely dismissing the concerns as invalid. If you don't know about what's happening in China you really owe it to yourself to look into it a bit more, especially what's happening with the Uighur people. I would certainly pay more for an "ethically manufactured" OSSC, but I don't think it would be fair to judge marqs for choosing to make it for a significantly cheaper cost - it is a problem endemic to society and currently almost impossible to avoid. The attitude "rational men take care of their own concerns before trying to save the world" is a huge part of that. People are living in a state of constant unimaginable fear and suffering to support our trivial hobbies and leisure activities.

What an excellent response. I don't want to seem like I'm judging Marqs, but when I contacted Videogameperfection to buy an original OSSC, they told me that it was made in china and gave me a bad attitude about wanting one made in a different country. I didn't buy one from them at all. I just get the impression that Videogameperfection doesn't see anything wrong with chinese slave labor and I wanted to say something about it here.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:52 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
XSync-1 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with me bringing up this discussion.

A long time ago I read a little detail about the Freemasons and I thought it was weird at that time: They prohibit any discussion of politics or religion while in their meeting place (lodge). I think I can see their reasoning now - it leads to escalating off-topic discussions.

fernan1234 wrote:
This is something that I've been wondering for a while. I may be asking the wrong question or asking it wrongly, but how do video processors like the OSSC handle conversion from the Rec. 601 colors of the SD sources that we use to Rec. 709 of the FHD that they output and that most flat panels expect?

I don't know how the OSSC handles it, but some commercial video processors properly convert the color space when they convert across the 601/709 "border". It's just a 3x3 matrix multiplication per pixel and can be folded into the matrixm multiplications needed for RGB/YCbCr/RGB conversions or contrast/saturation adjustments.


This isn't off topic and it's pretty disgusting that you would portray the freemasons in a positive light.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:57 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Kez wrote:

I'm not saying retro gaming enthusiastics in particular, but essentially everyone in the developed world. Phones, TVs, the majority of household items, food, etc. It is cheap and easy for us at somebody else's expense. If you know something is produced unethically and you still pay for it, you are somewhat morally culpable. Buying power is all we have. If someone steals something and you buy it from them knowing it's stolen, that is an unethical act. Similarly if someone uses slave labour to make something and you knowingly still choose to buy it, you are actively condoning slave labour.

We are going wildly off topic here, Unseen made a very good point I think.. apologies. :p


This is definitely the wrong place for a discussion like this. If the Pro does really well it might sell several hundred units in its first year or so of production. The idea that producing it anywhere outside of China will have any kind of effect at all on the labor environment or the governments oppressive stance on workers Hong Kong, the Uighurs, etc., is extremely naive.

To send any kind of message you would need to target a product with orders of magnitude more sales than the OSSC Pro could ever dream of. Think iPhones. Its one of the reasons I dont buy Apple products. People leaping to their deaths from the top of Foxconn production facilities over slave labor and wages building fucking cell phones that hundreds of millions of sheople eagerly pay $1200 every couple of years for.

Want to make a difference? Target Apple, not Marqs.

I'm trying to give Marqs my message because I can't give my message to Apple. That's the whole point. He runs a much smaller business than Apple, therefore he would be more inclined to listen, and the OSSC doesn't have to be made in china if he says so. If more companies stop dealing with them, it will change things.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:57 pm 


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NormalFish wrote:
orange808 wrote:
1. Click here -->> viewforum.php?f=3
2. Click "New Topic"
3. Profit.

Have you seen that guy's threads? Please don't give him ideas.

Is there a way to block this pseudo-intellectual geek, so I don't have to read anymore of his comments?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:36 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 71
Josh128 wrote:
This is definitely the wrong place for a discussion like this. If the Pro does really well it might sell several hundred units in its first year or so of production. The idea that producing it anywhere outside of China will have any kind of effect at all on the labor environment or the governments oppressive stance on workers Hong Kong, the Uighurs, etc., is extremely naive.

To send any kind of message you would need to target a product with orders of magnitude more sales than the OSSC Pro could ever dream of. Think iPhones. Its one of the reasons I dont buy Apple products. People leaping to their deaths from the top of Foxconn production facilities over slave labor and wages building fucking cell phones that hundreds of millions of sheople eagerly pay $1200 every couple of years for.

Want to make a difference? Target Apple, not Marqs.



BS. You are responsible for smaller things as well. This is not a "campaign", you have to start with the small things, it all adds up. If many small projects boycot production in China, it definitely can send a message as well.

Your thinking is nothing more than a way to weasel out of responsibility. Compare climate change. A government might use your thinking as an excuse to not reduce greenhouse gas emission as much as would (otherwise) be possible, it makes cute doggy eyes and goes: oh but the other countries emit sooo much more greenhouse gas than us, our contribution would change so little, so our effort would not be worth it. It's always the others that have to make a move, not yourself, isn't it. Like a stubborn small kid. Just like thinking unnecessarily keeping the lights on doesn't matter. It's egoistic. (the other half of the stunt, btw, which is used for "bad" things, goes like: oh but if we don't do it, somebody else will do it anyway!) And that thought is viral, gets widely replicated. When your job might actually be to shatter that wall, setting a good example, creating the possibility that it may replicate.

Your argument is a comfortable argument, and an ignorant argument.


Last edited by Blacksheep on Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:43 pm 



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XSync-1 wrote:
Is there a way to block this pseudo-intellectual geek, so I don't have to read anymore of his comments?


Maybe it's better to not keep calling other people pseudo intellectuals after you're the guy who seems to think that imperial Japan (and even WWII) was in the 1970s...

But anyway, if you want you can easily block any user that annoys you via this page: ucp.php?mode=logout


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:47 pm 



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 90
XSync-1 wrote:
Covidinese government


Isn't it funny how people who insist they have totally normal concerns descend into conspiracy theories the second they get the chance to expand on them?

Come on, man. At least recognize that that's not going to help your case that you're taking a principled stand for human rights.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:15 am 


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Blacksheep wrote:


BS. You are responsible for smaller things as well. This is not a "campaign", you have to start with the small things, it all adds up. If many small projects boycot production in China, it definitely can send a message as well.

Your thinking is nothing more than a way to weasel out of responsibility. Compare climate change. A government might use your thinking as an excuse to not reduce greenhouse gas emission as much as would (otherwise) be possible, it makes cute doggy eyes and goes: oh but the other countries emit sooo much more greenhouse gas than us, our contribution would change so little, so our effort would not be worth it. It's always the others that have to make a move, not yourself, isn't it. Like a stubborn small kid. Just like thinking unnecessarily keeping the lights on doesn't matter. It's egoistic. (the other half of the stunt, btw, which is used for "bad" things, goes like: oh but if we don't do it, somebody else will do it anyway!) And that thought is viral, gets widely replicated. When your job might actually be to shatter that wall, setting a good example, creating the possibility that it may replicate.

Your argument is a comfortable argument, and an ignorant argument.


So you think this is the right place for this type of discussion?

Im ignorant yet you claim this is not a campaign? This is the fucking definition of a campaign, homie. Trying to claim its not a campaign is ignorant.

Whats also ignorant is you comparing this project to a governments agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. 1.) Governments dont typically sell products to end consumers and 2.) Such agreements by governments usually involve subsidies for the businesses they affect. Are you going to subsidize this for Marqs so he doesnt have to raise the price of the unit and potentially cripple his sales? This is a niche, hobbyist project. A project that would very likely end up costing 50% or more should it be produced somewhere else. For an already ~$300+ unit, that would make it a non-starter for most people. Doing that to "take a stand" and all but killing your already limited sales would be extremely ignorant.

If it could be accomplished for only ~10-20% more cost, I think most people, including myself, would be OK with it. Do you honestly think thats going to be the case?


Last edited by Josh128 on Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:17 am 


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Oops, I forgot. Don't click on the OSSC Pro thread.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:10 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 71
Josh128 wrote:
So you think this is the right place for this type of discussion?


Yes.

Josh128 wrote:
Im ignorant yet you claim this is not a campaign? This is the fucking definition of a campaign, homie. Trying to claim its not a campaign is ignorant.


OK, my bad, it's a campaign. So?

Josh128 wrote:
Whats also ignorant is you comparing this project to a governments agreement ...


I wasn't speaking of any government agreement. I was speaking of government's behavior/justification more generally. You seem to have misunderstood: the reason I introduced the government / greenhouse gas parallel was to illustrate the kind of harmful thought, and it works really well for that purpose. As obvious as it is that governments don't typically sell products to end consumers, as obvious is it that this does in no way affect the validity of my riposte, as it simply has nothing to do with it.

Josh128 wrote:
If it could be accomplished for only ~10-20% more cost, I think most people, including myself, would be OK with it. Do you honestly think thats going to be the case?


How should I know if that is going to be the case—marqs and Bucko manage the contractual details. They should know better, considering marqs said that there are plans to produce in Europe also. Personally I would be OK with paying ~10-20% more for an OSSC Pro not made in China, perhaps a little more still. If there will be deals with multiple manufacturers based in different countries, maybe the shop could let customers choose and hinge the price on that choice. But it doesn't all depend on videogameperfection.com: as Tazz mentioned, once the hardware files are released, you could order from a manufacturer of your choosing (or possibly from another seller which might do things differently). Note that depending on the scale of the order, prices might not be the public ones. I think your estimation of the number of units produced: "if the Pro does really well it might sell several hundred units in its first year or so of production" might be set a bit too low.

Josh128 wrote:
Doing that to "take a stand" and all but killing your already limited sales would be extremely ignorant.


I think just breaking even as a hobby project, and for a good cause on top of that, would demonstrate some grit. If you can't even break even due to not producing in China, I can appreciate if you don't want to go that route. But as I said, I don't know the details.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:45 am 


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^^Garbage...




I would like to know the best low latency big screen I could buy in 1440p?

I have seen a few recommendations for 32” models but I am a glutton for a big screen.

What are some prospects of 1440 Panels bigger than 32?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:00 am 


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Go ultrawide or get a 4K TV. I don't think there is much in the way of 16:9 computer monitors bigger than 32" at any resolution. LG Display announced they'll be making a 42" 4K OLED panel this year, though it's not clear if LG Electronics will be making a TV that uses it this year, or if you'll need to buy it from Sony or some other TV manufacturer.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:59 am 


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I have plenty of thoughts on a lot of these posts and none of them belong here- we actually need a moderator at this point to clean this up.

Guspaz wrote:
Go ultrawide or get a 4K TV. I don't think there is much in the way of 16:9 computer monitors bigger than 32" at any resolution. LG Display announced they'll be making a 42" 4K OLED panel this year, though it's not clear if LG Electronics will be making a TV that uses it this year, or if you'll need to buy it from Sony or some other TV manufacturer.


I thought there was a 42" CX last year? Maybe not, maybe just in one region. That's definitely going to be your best bet hoagtech, though that's an awful lot of screen for a desk setup. 27" is the largest I would personally go, but that's just me and of course depends on your sitting distance.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:40 pm 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
I thought there was a 42" CX last year? Maybe not, maybe just in one region. That's definitely going to be your best bet hoagtech, though that's an awful lot of screen for a desk setup. 27" is the largest I would personally go, but that's just me and of course depends on your sitting distance.


No, it was a 48''. That will continue to be the smallest size available for WOLED panels. There are apparently plans to start production on a 42'' model at some point, but it's probably over a year away from now if not longer for TVs with them to be available for purchase.

On the other hand, RGB OLED displays (manufactured by JOLED and not LG) have been announced by LG in both 32'' and even 27'' sizes, but those will be for professional use in photo and video editing, and will most likely lack the features that most gamers look for in displays.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:05 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Ima keep it real with you chief. I always prioritize self interest above trying to change the world. Most rational men do


I always buy open-source projects from the original creator's approved/affiliated vendors out of a matter of principle, even when I can get a cheaper knockoff-ish version that works just as well. Especially if the vendor contributes back to the project. There's a sizable amount of people in the community who also do this. However, if there is a version created/assembled more ethically (e.g. not using Chinese slave labor, not contributing to environmental or animal abuse, etc.), I'm willing to consider buying that version instead, even at a greater cost.

I know this is just me and that doesn't mean it's representative of the market. If anyone out there reading this is interested in selling the OSSC Pro (or other open source products in this hobbyist realm) assembled more ethically, sign me up as 1 potential buyer, though.

The politics of this issue is a bit off-topic, but discussing potential assemblers/vendors for this project and where they source their parts is quite on-topic -- just my opinion as a buyer (and given I buy from vendors who contribute money back, also somewhat financial contributor).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:51 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Go ultrawide or get a 4K TV. I don't think there is much in the way of 16:9 computer monitors bigger than 32" at any resolution. LG Display announced they'll be making a 42" 4K OLED panel this year, though it's not clear if LG Electronics will be making a TV that uses it this year, or if you'll need to buy it from Sony or some other TV manufacturer.


I was looking for a TV not a computer monitor.

You seem to know something I don’t but I was looking for 1440 because it will support integer scaling at 6x and reduce my vertical black and not have to rely on my internal scaler to bump up to 4K..

What’s the biggest 1440p tv out there?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:14 pm 



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Hoagtech wrote:
What’s the biggest 1440p tv out there?


Is there even such a thing as a 1440p TV?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:44 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:
What’s the biggest 1440p tv out there?


Is there even such a thing as a 1440p TV?


Not that I know of.

The biggest I’ve seen is that LG 32” Freesync IPS.

I was hoping for a bigger screen for my man cave 65+ with a 1440 native for the PRO.

That 32” is surprisingly affordable for its features

https://www.newegg.com/p/9SIA8X5BWW4701 ... &gclsrc=ds
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:20 pm 



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Unless the OSSC Pro ever gets any complex CRT shaders, I sort of doubt you would be able to tell the difference between a worst case 1440p>2160p scale and a 1440p native scale.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:08 pm 


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ZellSF wrote:
Unless the OSSC Pro ever gets any complex CRT shaders, I sort of doubt you would be able to tell the difference between a worst case 1440p>2160p scale and a 1440p native scale.


One problem I can see is that 1440p does not evenly scale to 2160. At 2x you would be at 2880p. Maybe my logic is too simple but if your 4K panel does a proper job internal scaling, I would think you would better off feeding it a 3x 720 signal and hoping it applies a proper 3x scale to 2160.

I don’t mind being wrong but I would love to hear why and how a 2160 image could properly scale a 6x signal.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:11 pm 


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There are no 1440p TVs, nor will you find one at 65". I don't want to say that 16:9 1440p displays larger than 32" don't exist, but I have never seen one. If you want to go bigger, you need to look at a 4K TV.

Why are you worried about scaling 1440p to 2160p? If it's a PC or a modern console, it can set its output resolution to 2160p. If it's a retro console, it doesn't really matter, the display is high enough resolution that integer scaling is largely meaningless.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:48 pm 



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Hoagtech wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Unless the OSSC Pro ever gets any complex CRT shaders, I sort of doubt you would be able to tell the difference between a worst case 1440p>2160p scale and a 1440p native scale.


One problem I can see is that 1440p does not evenly scale to 2160. At 2x you would be at 2880p. Maybe my logic is too simple but if your 4K panel does a proper job internal scaling, I would think you would better off feeding it a 3x 720 signal and hoping it applies a proper 3x scale to 2160.

I don’t mind being wrong but I would love to hear why and how a 2160 image could properly scale a 6x signal.

Here's an integer scaled image:
Image
Here's a non-integer scaled one:
Image
Do you really think there's a difference there worth caring about?


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