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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:46 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
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fernan1234 wrote:
It's definitely more pro in the sense that it has been and continues to be the standard connector for professional equipment, but the problem is that it takes up a lot of space. That where the "subminiature" of D-sub has the advantage. It may not be the pro standard, but it's still above the old consumer SCART level, and it can do everything that both BNC and SCART can while taking up much less physical space, and that along with the availability of "VGA" cables and adapters should make it the default for high quality devices in hobby spaces like this.

It can't do everything BNC can though, otherwise it would be the professional standard. The very small connector body makes cabling, impedance matching, and long cable runs a headache, it's why BNC cables are separated across each channel. DE-15 probably has more in common with SCART than BNC, both being single body 15+ pin connectors and standards originally intended for use with either home AV equipment or PCs.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:12 pm 


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ross wrote:
It can't do everything BNC can though, otherwise it would be the professional standard.


BNC is only necessary over *very* long cable runs. Anything normal and you are not going to see any difference whatsoever. There was a time in the early 90's that monitors were using special connectors to enhance theoretical bandwidth (SUN and SONY both did), but by the end of the 90's, they were completely abandoned because it made no real-world difference. You have to get longer than 10' before it's even detectable, and I don't think a person could tell by looking at it until it was even longer than that (like 20' or more). If you were pushing *lots* of pixels and using a shit ton of bandwidth, you might have issues at more than 6'.

The reason that BNC continued to be used in video was more to do with the fact that it was the defacto standard in all TV studios already. This was true long before RGB was being used and it has nothing to do with the BNC RGB standard used by high resolution monitors in the 90's. BNC was chosen for studios because it locks securely and can be quickly changed. Multiple DE15 connectors wouldn't make sense for production equipment for many reasons, but mainly because a lot of them continued to use composite video for feeds, and didn't need the whole host of pins (and also they do use very long runs).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:30 pm 



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ross wrote:
It can't do everything BNC can though, otherwise it would be the professional standard. The very small connector body makes cabling, impedance matching, and long cable runs a headache, it's why BNC cables are separated across each channel. DE-15 probably has more in common with SCART than BNC, both being single body 15+ pin connectors and standards originally intended for use with either home AV equipment or PCs.


I guess I should have qualified further by saying that it can do everything that BNC can do as far as our purposes are concerned. We're not analogue video broadcasters, we just want to play games and watch nice video content here.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:47 pm 



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The chance of there being a perceptible difference in picture quality with 15 kHz video using good BNC cables and good DE-15 cables at 6 or so feet is low, but that's the case with good SCART cables too. Point is if you're wanting to push a different connector on these niche pro video processors, I think it might be worth considering the actually 'pro' connector that's not at all uncommon with the professional CRTs and high end PC monitors people are already using. It's not like DE-15 is exactly plug and play either.

Quote:
I guess I should have qualified further by saying that it can do everything that BNC can do as far as our purposes are concerned. We're not analogue video broadcasters, we just want to play games and watch nice video content here.

I'm not the one debasing 'consumer level connectors' in a thread about a $500 video scaler though :P


Last edited by ross on Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:52 pm 


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We’re going to be stuck with SCART for years whether we like it or not, the popular websites / YouTubers / cable and converter manufacturers have cemented it in for at LEAST another ~2 years... don’t get me wrong, I really wish there were *readily* available BNC cables for every console (moreso I wish DE-15, but I think people have probably avoided it due to the inevitable headache of noobs not reading and getting confused when their 15kHz consoles don’t work on VGA monitors).

Also kinda shocked that nobody has decided to mass-produce female SCART to DE-15 + audio cables (with sync strippers in them if needed). I know RGC UK used to make some marketed towards Extron interfaces / I know there are some PCBs out there such as the Sync Strike + Slayer, but now more than ever some simple cables seem like a no-brainer: VGA switches/matrices can be found for an absolute steal, GBScontrol is very popular, etc etc...

I can’t stop singing the praises of the Insurrection Industries SCART2DVI, those things are great... $35 with free shipping / I simply stick male DVI-A/I to male VGA dongles on the end... they should really do another run with either VGA out or an included VGA dongle! They have on/off switchable LM1881’s and LPFs, the LPF is meant for the Datapath capture cards they’re designed for but also is great for AV3 on the OG OSSC!
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:00 am 



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ross wrote:
The chance of there being a perceptible difference in picture quality with 15 kHz video using good BNC cables and good DE-15 cables at 6 or so feet is low, but that's the case with good SCART cables too. Point is if you're wanting to push a different connector on these niche pro video processors, I think it might be worth considering the actually 'pro' connector that's not at all uncommon with the professional CRTs and high end PC monitors people are already using. It's not like DE-15 is exactly plug and play either.


The key point is that for our purposes SCART v DE-15 v BNC can produce equal results in terms of video quality as well as shielding for audio, but in terms of product design, space saving, ease of connectivity (SCART is easy to plug--and accidentally unplug!--but you have to mind the end as it is annoyingly unidirectional), and availability and affordability of cables, the DE-15 beats the other two options by quite a bit. As for pro CRTs and such having BNC connectors, "VGA to BNC" cables are cheap and plentiful, as mentioned earlier.

That would be the crucial advantage of DE-15 as the standard for our hobby scene, but as kitty666cats just rightly pointed out the scene is gonna be stuck with SCART for the near future at least due to path dependence, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:03 am 



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Guess I've just never felt DE-15 has that much of an advantage when it comes to practicality, convenience, availability, etc., then putting it down to cabling and picture quality.

Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:45 am 


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ross wrote:
Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P


It's pretty ridiculous. And think about how much harder it's going to be to get SCART stuff going forward. How long will new decent quality connectors even be available for?

We are stuck with SCART for now, but we'll all be forced away from SCART in due time.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:04 am 


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https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id= ... CKEALw_wcB

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These + console5.com = a great solution for DIY DE-15 cables, btw ;)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:24 am 


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ross wrote:
DE-15 is hardly professional though, is it?


I'd argue that it is. Not used by video professionals, but used by professionals using video :lol:

i.e. business conference presentations etc.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:31 am 


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ross wrote:
Guess I've just never felt DE-15 has that much of an advantage when it comes to practicality, convenience, availability, etc., then putting it down to cabling and picture quality.

Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P

that's why - in north america high quality surplus VGA cables and switchers are cheap and abundant, whereas everything SCART is boutique and niche


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:48 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
ross wrote:
Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P


It's pretty ridiculous. And think about how much harder it's going to be to get SCART stuff going forward. How long will new decent quality connectors even be available for?

We are stuck with SCART for now, but we'll all be forced away from SCART in due time.


You are right, as a european it makes 0 sense to move away from SCART. If an OSSC Pro or other hardware comes along that will require me to spend a fortune replacing my SCART cables for some other perceived better standard i will either just not do it and thus not buy it, and/or ditch everything and switch to a mister setup or something similar.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:18 pm 



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spmbx wrote:
You are right, as a european it makes 0 sense to move away from SCART. If an OSSC Pro or other hardware comes along that will require me to spend a fortune replacing my SCART cables for some other perceived better standard i will either just not do it and thus not buy it, and/or ditch everything and switch to a mister setup or something similar.


That won't happen, but even in an imaginary scenario where the OSSC or other hardware, most likely for design reasons, uses a DE15 (or "VGA") connector for RGBS or RGsB you would not need to replace your entire setup, but simply would need a single "(probably female) SCART to VGA" or such cable or adapter to go from your console SCART cables or SCART switch to the device.

In fact for the MiSTer you're already in that situation, needing the opposite (VGA to SCART) if you have a SCART-based setup, as the analogue IO board only has a DE15 connector, or if you used an HDMI to VGA DAC you would likewise need the cable/adapter mentioned above.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:33 pm 


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ross wrote:
I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P


That's what I did! As soon as I realized SCART was entirely consumer focused, and older switchers were either small, unreliable, or really expensive to import, I went full DB-15


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:26 pm 



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The lack of DE15-> Female scart adapters really says alot about our society.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:46 pm 


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tongshadow wrote:
The lack of DE15-> Female scart adapters really says alot about our society.


RGC UK never gave a reason for why they randomly stopped making them, it was really weird and almost cryptic... it could very well have to do with what I said in my last post - too many uneducated noobs trying to use said cables with 15kHz consoles on VGA monitors. Although... if you’re deep enough into this hobby where you would even WANT to buy such a cable, chances are you already know what you’re doing!

I really ought to get it together and make a big batch of those cables, they’d probably sell like hotcakes on eBay!
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:03 pm 



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kitty666cats wrote:
it could very well have to do with what I said in my last post - too many uneducated noobs trying to use said cables with 15kHz consoles on VGA monitors


As a seller you could reasonably deal with that by adding a sticker on the connector with "15khz only! Not for VGA monitors" or something like that.

Retro access makes custom DE15 cables, though they seem to not have taken custom orders for a while now.

kitty666cats wrote:
I really ought to get it together and make a big batch of those cables, they’d probably sell like hotcakes on eBay!


When I transitioned away from a SCART setup, my SCART-DE15 cables took a few of days to sell, admittedly not as fast as my RA SCART cables


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:21 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
it could very well have to do with what I said in my last post - too many uneducated noobs trying to use said cables with 15kHz consoles on VGA monitors


As a seller you could reasonably deal with that by adding a sticker on the connector with "15khz only! Not for VGA monitors" or something like that.

Retro access makes custom DE15 cables, though they seem to not have taken custom orders for a while now.

kitty666cats wrote:
I really ought to get it together and make a big batch of those cables, they’d probably sell like hotcakes on eBay!


When I transitioned away from a SCART setup, my SCART-DE15 cables took a few of days to sell, admittedly not as fast as my RA SCART cables


Is this basically the same thing? > https://retro-access.com/collections/an ... cart-cable


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:43 pm 


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I’m sure SCART vs DE-15 is an interesting and valid discussion, but perhaps not in this thread?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:38 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
I’m sure SCART vs DE-15 is an interesting and valid discussion, but perhaps not in this thread?


DE-15 is a wish list item for the OSSC Pro.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:21 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Harrumph wrote:
I’m sure SCART vs DE-15 is an interesting and valid discussion, but perhaps not in this thread?


DE-15 is a wish list item for the OSSC Pro.


Indeed.

We also need proper 480i support on the HD15/DE15 port. Right now, I have to address the issue by feeding some signals as RGBS on AV1. (While appreciated, the workaround menu setting on AV3 performs poorly for me.)

It doesn't matter where a person lives, a BNC to HD15/DE15 adapter is going to be less expensive than a custom BNC to SCART adapter. Furthermore, I can feed any video signal on an HD15/DE15, because it's commonly understood that a combined sync format (luma, composite, or clean) will be found on the "horizonal sync" pin. Although, I acknowledge that most setups will need a sync stripper before the switch, so RGBS clean sync is most likely.

The ability to feed a single HD15/DE15 input (on the OSSC Pro) from an Extron switcher (via BNC to HD15) would be very convenient for many users. It would also be nice to feed sync directly from a Crosspoint without worrying about sync voltage. The OSSC doesn't have proper 480i support and TTL support on one port.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:48 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
The OSSC doesn't have proper 480i support and TTL support on one port.


Yes and it's a weakness of the OSSC along with AV3 not having low pass filter control. But this has all been addressed by the OSSC Pro


vol.2 wrote:
DE-15 is a wish list item for the OSSC Pro.


It's not a wish list item, it's been part of the planned design all along.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:32 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
DE-15 is a wish list item for the OSSC Pro.


It's not a wish list item, it's been part of the planned design all along.


Right, the DE-15 connector was visible in the block diagram and concept pictures since the day this thread was started. And was probably already part of the OSSC Pro before that. It would be surprising if marqs ever had an OSSC Pro in mind without the connector, if only because the regular OSSC already had it. What's next, somebody asking for RGB support?

Harrumph wrote:
I’m sure SCART vs DE-15 is an interesting and valid discussion, but perhaps not in this thread?


Right.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:25 am 


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Blacksheep wrote:
What's next, somebody asking for RGB support?


Seriously. Calm down guy. No one appointed you to come in and launch aggro comments at people in the threads. Take that shit somewhere else.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:08 am 



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vol.2 wrote:
Blacksheep wrote:
What's next, somebody asking for RGB support?


Seriously. Calm down guy. No one appointed you to come in and launch aggro comments at people in the threads. Take that shit somewhere else.


He's stolen my gig!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:31 am 


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kitty666cats wrote:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=556&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqO_-u2FK0_9nOhT5zQPzijr2N1hglVUj23iF_SqjITga6_GDjp5m-YaAgCKEALw_wcB

(picture of Monoprice cable)

These + console5.com = a great solution for DIY DE-15 cables, btw ;)


I've never had any luck with the audio portion of these cables, FWIW. The RGB lines are fully shielded coax, but audio and sync are thin gauge unshielded wire and the sound quality is pretty bad. You're better off using a regular VGA cable and running the audio separately.

But more on topic.... I don't like the SCART format either, but it's a de facto standard these days and all of Europe uses it. Not having a SCART connector on a device like this would be a little silly.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:15 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
I’m sure SCART vs DE-15 is an interesting and valid discussion, but perhaps not in this thread?
Yeah, the board has both so it's up to the user which one(s) to select. It's worth mentioning that I've utilized normally unused/reserved pins of SCART and HD15 to include support for 'missing' sync types of each other. Essentially video-level sync input is added on HD-15 (pin 4) and H+V syncs for SCART (pins 12 and 10) so various sources can be connected to either one with passive adapters.

I've recently run some performance tests and 2560x1440@60Hz seems to run fine already on current prototype even though it goes beyond specs of 3 different chips. The plan is now to upgrade HDMI TX (SiI1136) and FPGA (+1 speed grade), but 2560x1440@60Hz is still likely to remain an unofficial extra while 1920x1440@60Hz will be one that is guaranteed to work across all boards and conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:35 am 


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dandiego wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
I really ought to get it together and make a big batch of those cables, they’d probably sell like hotcakes on eBay!

Is this basically the same thing? > https://retro-access.com/collections/an ... cart-cable


I, personally, was referring to the lack of cables wired the opposite direction... female SCART w/ audio breakouts to male DE-15 - wired for composite sync (and, could install a LM1881 in said cable if the buyer does not have RGBS ‘csync’ cables already. Usually whenever people make custom cables like this, they pop an LM1881 in regardless - that way you’re getting the TTL sync levels that are most likely going to be needed for nearly all devices/monitors such an adapter cable would be used for). RGC UK / VGP used to make them:
Image
https://videogameperfection.com/2014/11 ... le-review/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you want a cable like the one YOU linked (DE-15 source wired for composite sync + audio breakout to connect back to source’s audio output -> Male SCART), then I have two links that are FAR more affordable than RGC UK & the similar cables made by Retro Access (for some reason both companies market them specifically for Analogue consoles & try to deter customers from any other use case, but all they are is simply a DE-15 source wired for composite sync on the Hsync pin) / I can personally vouch for the cable in the first link working flawlessly for me (I use said cable with my Key Digital KD-CTCA2 component to RGB transcoder with the dipswitch set for negative sync + composite sync output. For my NTSC Wii in 15kHz mode for 240p RetroArch in my all-RGB setup)...

https://coolnovelties.co.uk/coolnovelti ... 07088.html
http://retrocables.es/tienda/index.php? ... &id_lang=4

Worth noting is that the first cable seems to be exactly the same as THIS one, only at a better price ;)

https://ultimatemister.com/product/rgb-scart-cable/


——————————————————————


...also, I have a bit of a bombshell RE: RGC UK’s cables - seems a lot of them are now being made dirt cheap in China, here’s some AliBaba store I uncovered recently:

https://m.alibaba.com/product/160009010 ... 5-Pin.html

https://m.alibaba.com/product/62338987828/detail.html

And this third link, you’ll see they also have the RGC UK component cables inspired by HD RetroVision’s cables! However, the console connector is bare and I have no idea if the inline transcoding PCBs are included or not -

https://m.alibaba.com/product/62412451725/detail.html

Unsure if anyone else has already made this known, it’s quite odd... it could be possible that the place in China is using RGC UK’s designs, but if I had to guess it’s RGC UK who is having these cables made by this place in China. This would definitely explain their odd lapses in cable quality over the years.

Others have caught on, those folks who make the VGA2SCART are clearly using the same cables. There’s also this Amazon cable:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JGCXKRT/re ... UTF8&psc=1
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:01 am 


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kitty666cats wrote:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=556&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqO_-u2FK0_9nOhT5zQPzijr2N1hglVUj23iF_SqjITga6_GDjp5m-YaAgCKEALw_wcB

Image

These + console5.com = a great solution for DIY DE-15 cables, btw ;)


Warning: I have bought dozens of these things for a convention and they are both very thick/stiff *and* suffer from really bad interference problems (with the audio). I don't know what kind of shielding they have inside (Monoprice provides zero information and I've never cut one open), but it's clear that at least the audio is unshielded. Unreliable/flakey too. Now, I was dealing with lengths like 25/50/100ft so maybe the shorter ones won't have issues, but if you're dealing with shorter runs, then what's the point of the combined cable in the first place? Just run the audio separately.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:49 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
Warning: I have bought dozens of these things for a convention and they are both very thick/stiff *and* suffer from really bad interference problems (with the audio). I don't know what kind of shielding they have inside (Monoprice provides zero information and I've never cut one open), but it's clear that at least the audio is unshielded. Unreliable/flakey too. Now, I was dealing with lengths like 25/50/100ft so maybe the shorter ones won't have issues, but if you're dealing with shorter runs, then what's the point of the combined cable in the first place? Just run the audio separately.


I've cut one of these open, and as I mentioned in another post the audio lines are very thin (28 gauge IIRC) and are bundled together with the sync and data lines. It's pretty bad. Their plain VGA cables are excellent however.


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