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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:46 pm 



Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Posts: 272
Location: St Louis, IL, USA
New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:38 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1200
I'm sorry if I've forgotten whether this was discussed already, but have we gone over the possibility of the OSSC Pro reporting its HDMI output as an HDR signal, so that modern TVs and monitors can apply HDR mode and its features to the signal, specifically allowing a much greater peak brightness, which would be extremely useful in compensating for darkening caused by the use of scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:20 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
but have we gone over the possibility of the OSSC Pro reporting its HDMI output as an HDR signal, so that modern TVs and monitors can apply HDR mode and its features to the signal, specifically allowing a much greater peak brightness, which would be extremely useful in compensating for darkening caused by the use of scanlines.

Stop peeking at my private "Things I thought about adding to GCVideo if I can fit them" list ;)

If the HDMI TX chip can send arbitrary infoframes (ADV7513 can, but I'm not sure if that is still the target chip) it should be possible to enable HDR mode on the display, although it may require gamma correction on the OSSC to keep the image looking reasonable.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:18 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1200
Unseen wrote:
Stop peeking at my private "Things I thought about adding to GCVideo if I can fit them" list ;)

If the HDMI TX chip can send arbitrary infoframes (ADV7513 can, but I'm not sure if that is still the target chip) it should be possible to enable HDR mode on the display, although it may require gamma correction on the OSSC to keep the image looking reasonable.



Does your list also include black frame insertion/single strobing at 60hz to match the 60fps of most our beloved old systems (and in fact consoles up to the previous gen, technically even the current one)?

It's so sad to see so many cool or promising monitors coming out, but virtually none of them having single strobing at 60hz to alleviate sample-and-hold blur on traditional 60fps content. A video processor that could do this for us would be excellent, especially when combined with HDR mode/gamma correction for brightness-loss compensation as well. This may have been touched on when discussing 120hz output, since I the easiest way to implement this on the OSSC Pro would be to output 120hz and black out every other frame.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:45 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Does your list also include black frame insertion/single strobing at 60hz to match the 60fps of most our beloved old systems (and in fact consoles up to the previous gen, technically even the current one)?

While this should be possible with OSSC Pro and IIRC was mentioned as a possible feature before, it is not possible for GCVideo because it requires frame rate conversion from 60 to 120 Hz, which needs a frame buffer.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:57 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 168
Unseen wrote:
If the HDMI TX chip can send arbitrary infoframes

On a related note, what does it take at a technical level for the display to think it's receiving a variable refresh rate (VRR) video feed? I know there's the official support in the HDMI 2.1 signaling, but AMD FreeSync / VESA Adaptive-Sync was definitely a thing on many HDMI 1.4 PC displays (the reason 144 hz displays became a thing as 1080p @ 144 hz @ 8-bit RGB is the bandwidth limit of HDMI 1.4...) and many HDMI TVs/monitors seem to work with VRR if you convince the GPU to send VRR via a modified EDID that claims the display supports VRR (admittedly in a pretty narrow range around ~60 hz, but broad enough for correct timings on vintage game consoles and arcade boards).

This is a big issue as many consumer TVs seem to only enable their lowest latency modes when they think there's a VRR video feed coming in.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:11 am 


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marqs wrote:
2x20 pin GPIO connector for future expansion possibilities such as:
* composite & s-video input module


any plans for Composite modules with a 3D Combfilter like on the ADV7842 board?

that would be awesome for laserdisc fans with adjustable settings and 480i output options for routing


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:43 pm 


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XtraSmiley wrote:
New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?
The HW configuration is currently being finalized. As mentioned in the previous page, the largest pending item is selection and verification of suitable HDMI transmitter with potential support for 2560x1440@60Hz and 1920x1080@120Hz in mind. The design could implement one or both in a couple ways (in increasing order of challenge):

1. 1280x1440@60Hz (121MHz) on FPGA, 2560x1440@60Hz (242MHz) on TX (pixel repetition)
2. 960x1080@120Hz (143MHz) on FPGA, 1920x1080@120Hz (286MHz) on TX (pixel repetition)
3. 2560x1440@60Hz (242MHz) on FPGA, 2560x1440@60Hz (242MHz) on TX
4. 1920x1080@120Hz (286MHz) on FPGA, 1920x1080@120Hz (286MHz) on TX

The first two trick modes would be nice to include as the FPGA won't become a bottleneck. Number one even works on current prototype, although I wouldn't count for every ADV7513 playing nice with the mode as it's way over the chip spec. Getting the rest to work requires SiI1136 of which price and availability are no worse, but I have some concerns on the chip which need to be addressed first. The last mode most likely is unrealistic for Cyclone V, even with highest speed grade. A frustrating fact is that it'd also push the cost beyond newer Cyclone 10 GX equivalents which are more aggressively priced (updating to C10GX itself would be too big change at this point). So assuming I'll become confident with SiI1136, support for the first two modes should be granted and number 3 could have semi-official support. Speaking of that, I have a few extra SiI1136_HSMC PCBs (unassembled) in case anyone is interested trying out a 300MHz HDMI transmitter for whatever project.

About the case, we're currently looking for a designer for prototype 3D-printed enclosure which might be also used for production if injection mold / CNC starts to look prohibitely expensive. Anyone with interest and right experience could contact me or BuckoA51.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:13 am 


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marqs wrote:
XtraSmiley wrote:
New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?
The HW configuration is currently being finalized. As mentioned in the previous page, the largest pending item is selection and verification of suitable HDMI transmitter with potential support for 2560x1440@60Hz and 1920x1080@120Hz in mind. The design could implement one or both in a couple ways (in increasing order of challenge):


Do you know if Line4X for the PSP (480x272 -> 1920x1088) could be possible for the OSSC Pro? Right now the OSSC can do Line2X, which is 480x272 -> 960x544.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:25 am 


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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Unseen wrote:
If the HDMI TX chip can send arbitrary infoframes

On a related note, what does it take at a technical level for the display to think it's receiving a variable refresh rate (VRR) video feed? I know there's the official support in the HDMI 2.1 signaling, but AMD FreeSync / VESA Adaptive-Sync was definitely a thing on many HDMI 1.4 PC displays (the reason 144 hz displays became a thing as 1080p @ 144 hz @ 8-bit RGB is the bandwidth limit of HDMI 1.4...) and many HDMI TVs/monitors seem to work with VRR if you convince the GPU to send VRR via a modified EDID that claims the display supports VRR (admittedly in a pretty narrow range around ~60 hz, but broad enough for correct timings on vintage game consoles and arcade boards).

This is a big issue as many consumer TVs seem to only enable their lowest latency modes when they think there's a VRR video feed coming in.
Custom infoframes can be sent with both chip candicates, bigger challenge is what actually needs to be done for the video stream to properly support these features. For HDR, gamma correction is needed as mentioned. For VRR, custom sync generation and source signal locking logic is a requirement.

Lawfer wrote:
marqs wrote:
XtraSmiley wrote:
New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?
The HW configuration is currently being finalized. As mentioned in the previous page, the largest pending item is selection and verification of suitable HDMI transmitter with potential support for 2560x1440@60Hz and 1920x1080@120Hz in mind. The design could implement one or both in a couple ways (in increasing order of challenge):


Do you know if Line4X for the PSP (480x272 -> 1920x1088) could be possible for the OSSC Pro? Right now the OSSC can do Line2X, which is 480x272 -> 960x544.
It is definitely possible, in one way or another. For adaptive LM de-letterboxing is a challenge as source vertical active/total ratio is very different to output, but the plan is to change line buffer mapping from a fixed configuration (40 line buffers of 2048 samples each) to selectable sets (e.g. 160 line buffers of 512 samples each which would be optimal for PSP). Scaler mode should support transformations up to certain maximum resolution / pixel clock with more flexibility.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:35 am 



Joined: 28 Jan 2021
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marqs wrote:

About the case, we're currently looking for a designer for prototype 3D-printed enclosure which might be also used for production if injection mold / CNC starts to look prohibitely expensive. Anyone with interest and right experience could contact me or BuckoA51.


I am very interested in helping with a case either for 3d printing or injection molding. I have over 10 years of experience in 3d modeling and 3d printing, and would love to help on a project like this


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:48 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1233
marqs wrote:
About the case...


Is the last PCB photo you posted close to the final design?

I ask because people seem to want a proper case for the OSSC Pro so it better fits their lifestyle. So it looks like anything else they might have proudly displayed in their entertainment center or desk. Something tidy, neat, PROfessional, and high-end!

...your PCB design, with THREE ports on the SIDES, where wires/cables, expansion ports/devices/etc. are going to be plugged into and TOTALLY visible, will NEVER, EVER, look tidy, neat, PROfessional, or high-end, no matter what the case looks like. Once it's setup and everything plugged in it's going to look super messy and undesirable, like another DIY frankenstein project, just like the current OSSC does.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the reality is I'm looking at my entertainment center right now, the centerpiece of most peoples homes, the place where EVERYBODY hangs out when I have people over, and there's 12x devices proudly displayed there right now – everything from a 1980 10" CRT TV as a conversation piece, to a cutting edge Xbox, and what do ALL of these have in common? NOT A SINGLE WIRE SHOWS FROM THE FRONT of any device. Not even one. Nowhere. Every single device has ALL the connections coming off the back (hell, of the ~50ish transcoders/converters I've owned only ONE has a plug I use on the front or side lol - an Extron 580xi - EVERYTHING else goes straight out the back!). They all look super tidy. I didn't even have to do anything special to hide wires because everything simply runs straight off the back of my entertainment unit (into the void behind which nobody sees that mess of wires lol ;) Again, this will not be possible with the OSSC Pro if the design of the last PCB stays the same.





marqs wrote:
we're currently looking for a designer for prototype 3D-printed enclosure which might be also used for production if injection mold / CNC starts to look prohibitely expensive. Anyone with interest and right experience could contact me or BuckoA51.

I'm an Industrial (Product) Designer, but changed career paths about 15 years ago and have not kept up on my CAD – wish I could help more... but from a few minutes of brainstorming, IF (and ONLY if!) the current PCB has no hope whatsoever of getting ALL the ports moved to the back, the only way I can see the OSSC Pro looking like a high-end piece of scaling magnificence would be to hide those side areas with their plugs and modules and such sticking out of them somehow...

...maybe having two "wings" coming off both the left and right side of the case (the wings running all the way to the back of the case so it looks cohesive) so it can hide those unsightly wires/modules hanging off the sides would do it. This would be a band-aid, but would at least make the OSSC Pro look like every other electronics-box we own with NO clearly visible wires/modules hanging off the sides.

I believe those "wings" would also have be modular, detachable, and switchable (which means more molds and higher price). I say this because I assume those side ports are where those additional modules you talked about (CV/YC input module(s), latency tester, controller ports, etc.) are going to plug into? And I assume those modules are going to be different sizes and shapes from each other, and will also need different holes for whatever is plugging into them (front facing for controller ports and the like, probably rear facing for most everything else), so the only way to keep the case design cohesive is to have modularity on those "wings" so they can be replaced depending on the module.

Those wings (the unique wings needed for each different type of module), although the finish wouldn't match 100%, would be a great candidate for 3d printing. The OSSC Pro's case would of course need a connection method built into it which these different wings can click into.

OR, you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...


Last edited by Dochartaigh on Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:14 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1200
Dochartaigh wrote:
you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...


This was discussed earlier. That's kind of the price you pay for using the large, bulky connector type known as SCART. It's just going to take up a lot of space no matter what. Just take it as an incentive to switch to the superior DSub club :D


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:52 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1233
fernan1234 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...


This was discussed earlier. That's kind of the price you pay for using the large, bulky connector type known as SCART. It's just going to take up a lot of space no matter what. Just take it as an incentive to switch to the superior DSub club :D


Hey, the original OSSC (which seems to be a smaller PCB) has the SCART on the back like it should be at least! I mean personally, I think they designed it UPSIDE-DOWN on the OSSC so the SCART cable angles AWAY from the OSSC's body, which makes the cable even MORE noticeable, but it's there at least for those that need it lol.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:44 pm 



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Posts: 67
Dochartaigh wrote:
Hey, the original OSSC (which seems to be a smaller PCB) has the SCART on the back like it should be at least! I mean personally, I think they designed it UPSIDE-DOWN on the OSSC so the SCART cable angles AWAY from the OSSC's body, which makes the cable even MORE noticeable, but it's there at least for those that need it lol.

If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input. Putting the SCART connector on the side on the OSSC Pro is the right call. That way the cable angles toward the back instead of the side, which is one of the more awkward aspects of the original OSSC in my setup.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:10 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1233
Sirotaca wrote:
If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input.

No, it doesn't, it's perfectly fine. Even when you're using one of those HUGE metal SCART heads that are like 30% larger. Here's a quick mock-up with one of my SCART heads I rewired for a RP3 hat back in the day.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:14 pm 


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but to be honest: these are flimsy component cables...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:39 pm 



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Posts: 1233
Fudoh wrote:
but to be honest: these are flimsy component cables...

Damn, tough crowd here ;)

The above isn't good enough for you lol? Those are official Sony OEM PS2 Component cables.


How about this? Is this more industry-standard/modern? HD Retrovision PS2 Component cables with RetroGamingCables.uk SCART cable JUST clear each other (and if designed this way there also looks to be room to move over the component inputs about 1/4" for a bit more clearance).

Image



Anyway, I don't mean to throw this topic off-track. Was just trying to demonstrate how design considerations dealing with how people are going to use these devices in their homes, once they're ALL setup and FULL of wires with modules and whatnot plugged-in (in the case of the OSSC Pro), should be made from the PCB design level on-up. ESPECIALLY if you're really committed to upping your game with this Pro version with a well-designed case, taking into consideration the FULL reality of how people are going to use these and integrate them into their home setups.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:16 pm 


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DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:09 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.

+9000


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:14 am 



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vol.2 wrote:
DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.


Amen. We need to spread the good word on DE15 with evangelical fervor. Maybe some day the retro gaming hobby landscape will change for the better by slowly phasing out SHART*.

*(all in good fun, nothing against people who use and even like SCART, though I do have a bit of resentment at the fact that so much cool gear obviously has to follow the majority trend and make compromises to include this bulky, inconvenient consumer-level connector type.)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Sirotaca wrote:
If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input.

No, it doesn't, it's perfectly fine. Even when you're using one of those HUGE metal SCART heads that are like 30% larger. Here's a quick mock-up with one of my SCART heads I rewired for a RP3 hat back in the day.

Image


Agree that "this is the way". If the SCART head would face the other direction, it massively increases the side to side area the box needs to sit on a shelf or in a cabinet. Its fucking unwieldy enough already in this proper direction.

BTW, +1 for the Kabeldirekt SCART cable. Those things are so huge and stiff you could whip the shit out of someone with them should the need arise. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:34 am 


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Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler: show
Image
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:52 am 


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orange808 wrote:
Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler: show
Composite Cables HERE


True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:03 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler: show
Composite Cables HERE


True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.


I don't like sync on green. :)

I use this one:
Spoiler: show
Image
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:32 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
Agree that "this is the way". If the SCART head would face the other direction, it massively increases the side to side area the box needs to sit on a shelf or in a cabinet. Its fucking unwieldy enough already in this proper direction.

Yeah, just as long as you don't plug anything in to that superfluous AV Out port.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:15 am 


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orange808 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler: show
Composite Cables HERE


True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.


I don't like sync on green. :)

I use this one:
Spoiler: show
Image


Man I love those Optoma adapters, I just wish they had a dang audio breakout... so annoying that they didn’t include one. What is your output that you usually connect the Optoma to, a SCART switch with a female socket?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:00 pm 



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They make SCART to DB15 adapters, would that solve the problem?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:01 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.


Amen. We need to spread the good word on DE15 with evangelical fervor. Maybe some day the retro gaming hobby landscape will change for the better by slowly phasing out SHART*.

*(all in good fun, nothing against people who use and even like SCART, though I do have a bit of resentment at the fact that so much cool gear obviously has to follow the majority trend and make compromises to include this bulky, inconvenient consumer-level connector type.)

DE-15 is hardly professional though, is it?

If we were abandoning the majority trend, I'd go full hog and put BNC on there, especially on a 'pro' device. Could possibly take R'G'B' and Y'PbPr on the same inputs that way if one were so inclined, and with the wealth of cheap, mass produced adapters out there it wouldn't be too awkward for SCART/DE-15/RCA users.

Never going to happen, but anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 pm 



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ross wrote:
If we were abandoning the majority trend, I'd go full hog and put BNC on there, especially on a 'pro' device


It's definitely more pro in the sense that it has been and continues to be the standard connector for professional equipment, but the problem is that it takes up a lot of space. That where the "subminiature" of D-sub has the advantage. It may not be the pro standard, but it's still above the old consumer SCART level, and it can do everything that both BNC and SCART can while taking up much less physical space, and that along with the availability of "VGA" cables and adapters should make it the default for high quality devices in hobby spaces like this.


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