OSSC Pro

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tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by nmalinoski »

tongshadow wrote:Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
I think a VGA output would be contrary to the goal of the OSSC; but, if the design is open like the regular OSSC, then there's nothing stopping you from adding analogue outputs to the design and building the board yourself, or, if marqs can clarify the capabilities of the expansion port, you might be able to get analogue output via an addon board.
Drunk_Caterpillar
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Drunk_Caterpillar »

tongshadow wrote:Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
Couldn't you just buy a super cheap HDMI -> VGA converter? They're sort of ubiquitous...
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Josh128
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Josh128 »

tongshadow wrote:Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
Oh snap. With all the discussion earlier of the 240p120 output capability, I thought VGA output was a given. I wonder if those cheap HDMI>VGA converters would be able to handle such a resolution properly?

**EDIT

Wait, it does include a VGA port-- is it an input port only then? I thought Marqs mentioned somewhere that the analog ports could be configured as inputs or outputs? Or maybe he was talking about configuring the GPIO connector for VGA output.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

Josh128 wrote:
tongshadow wrote:Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
Oh snap. With all the discussion earlier of the 240p120 output capability, I thought VGA output was a given. I wonder if those cheap HDMI>VGA converters would be able to handle such a resolution properly?
the cheap HDMI DACs generally tolerate just about any resolution within their pixel clock limits, they are "dumb" devices and don't care about resolution as such
tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

Drunk_Caterpillar wrote:
tongshadow wrote:Still no chance of adding a VGA output?
Couldn't you just buy a super cheap HDMI -> VGA converter? They're sort of ubiquitous...
I want a more solid and definitive all in one solution. These adapters are too spotty, not to mention that converting an analog signal to digital, and then, from digital to analog again is very silly.
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Kez
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Kez »

tongshadow wrote:converting an analog signal to digital, and then, from digital to analog again is very silly.
Converting an analogue signal to digital, doing a bunch of digital processing and then converting it to analogue output is not silly at all. Even with VGA output the OSSC would still be doing that.
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by nmalinoski »

Josh128 wrote:Wait, it does include a VGA port-- is it an input port only then? I thought Marqs mentioned somewhere that the analog ports could be configured as inputs or outputs? Or maybe he was talking about configuring the GPIO connector for VGA output.
The way I understood it, that DE-15 port is input-only, just like AV3 on the current OSSC, and that it was only the TOSLINK port that was to be configurable as input or output.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

maxtherabbit wrote: the cheap HDMI DACs generally tolerate just about any resolution within their pixel clock limits, they are "dumb" devices and don't care about resolution as such
Yep, though apparently most HDMI to VGA dongles, perhaps expecting limited RGB from the HDMI input, seem to give crushed blacks (or maybe the opposite, not sure) when fed full RGB. This was discovered when the MiSTer started supporting direct video from its HDMI output. Maybe the OSSC Pro will have a toggle setting for limited/full RGB.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

fernan1234 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote: the cheap HDMI DACs generally tolerate just about any resolution within their pixel clock limits, they are "dumb" devices and don't care about resolution as such
Yep, though apparently most HDMI to VGA dongles, perhaps expecting limited RGB from the HDMI input, seem to give crushed blacks (or maybe the opposite, not sure) when fed full RGB. This was discovered when the MiSTer started supporting direct video from its HDMI output. Maybe the OSSC Pro will have a toggle setting for limited/full RGB.
Actually, we discussed that here last year. :)

I'm surprised a discussion about the issue got very far on the MiSTer forums. The project leader wants people to use a dongle, so I imagine facts were not well received.

....

Why would an RGB output on a line doubler be a ridiculous feature? Seems like a reasonable option to me. :)
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tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

Kez wrote:
tongshadow wrote:converting an analog signal to digital, and then, from digital to analog again is very silly.
Converting an analogue signal to digital, doing a bunch of digital processing and then converting it to analogue output is not silly at all. Even with VGA output the OSSC would still be doing that.
What I mean is something closer to the old XRGB machines. And even if it's there some kind of conversion, it would be much better if it's done by the machine itself than an external device.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

tongshadow wrote:And even if it's there some kind of conversion, it would be much better if it's done by the machine itself than an external device.
doubtful, it would probably be the exact same DAC IC grafted onto the unit's PCB

BTW there is no "even if" with respect to a conversion. A conversion is required, full stop. If you don't understand that, then quite frankly you don't know enough about what's being discussed to have a qualified opinion.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

fernan1234 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote: the cheap HDMI DACs generally tolerate just about any resolution within their pixel clock limits, they are "dumb" devices and don't care about resolution as such
Yep, though apparently most HDMI to VGA dongles, perhaps expecting limited RGB from the HDMI input, seem to give crushed blacks (or maybe the opposite, not sure) when fed full RGB. This was discovered when the MiSTer started supporting direct video from its HDMI output. Maybe the OSSC Pro will have a toggle setting for limited/full RGB.
the one I have works properly when being fed full range, and shits the bed with limited range

which is fine with me, since limited range is retarded
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

maxtherabbit wrote: the one I have works properly when being fed full range, and shits the bed with limited range

which is fine with me, since limited range is retarded
Which one is that? I use an HDFury 3 which seems to do well with either, but I'd like to know of a cheaper alternative as a backup.
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by nmalinoski »

orange808 wrote:Why would an RGB output on a line doubler be a ridiculous feature? Seems like a reasonable option to me. :)
Perhaps I'm mistaken, or something has changed in the time since, but I understood the goal of the OSSC to be enabling use of older game consoles to work on newer displays without analog inputs and/or support for 240p/288p, so analog output would be antithetical to an OSSC product, especially since displays with VGA inputs are getting rarer and rarer, and those who have them would be just as well served with a DAC.

Personally, I think the OSSC Pro, as proposed, is an excellent starting point for a scaler aimed at the retro community, and adding much more to the design, like adding TOSLINK inputs for each video input plus a TOSLINK output, or adding analog outputs, would unduly raise the price for everyone in order to appeal to a few handfuls of additional people that very well could be served just as well with a TOSLINK switch or a video DAC.

The short version: Let this version come out, then it can be iterated upon; it doesn't need to be perfect for everyone to begin with. If demand for analog output continues, then we may get a new board revision with that integrated, or we may get an addon module for it.
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

I REALLY hope the OSSC Pro can have analog RGBHV over a DB15/VGA plug (with option for RGBS and/or YPbPr out would be AWESOME and save some setup complexity too).

I've used a whole bunch in my setup: HDFury 2, 3, forget the other one, Tendak, Portta, maybe another one or two. I still really don't like a single one.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

Kinda silly to suggest there would be obvious huge issues or shoddy conversion on a final OSSC product. marqs and bucko wouldn't ever simply throw on a crappy IC and call it a day.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

nmalinoski wrote:
orange808 wrote:Why would an RGB output on a line doubler be a ridiculous feature? Seems like a reasonable option to me. :)
Perhaps I'm mistaken, or something has changed in the time since, but I understood the goal of the OSSC to be enabling use of older game consoles to work on newer displays without analog inputs and/or support for 240p/288p, so analog output would be antithetical to an OSSC product, especially since displays with VGA inputs are getting rarer and rarer, and those who have them would be just as well served with a DAC.

Personally, I think the OSSC Pro, as proposed, is an excellent starting point for a scaler aimed at the retro community, and adding much more to the design, like adding TOSLINK inputs for each video input plus a TOSLINK output, or adding analog outputs, would unduly raise the price for everyone in order to appeal to a few handfuls of additional people that very well could be served just as well with a TOSLINK switch or a video DAC.

The short version: Let this version come out, then it can be iterated upon; it doesn't need to be perfect for everyone to begin with. If demand for analog output continues, then we may get a new board revision with that integrated, or we may get an addon module for it.
It's a feature request in a thread full of them.

Relax.
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tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

maxtherabbit wrote:BTW there is no "even if" with respect to a conversion. A conversion is required, full stop. If you don't understand that, then quite frankly you don't know enough about what's being discussed to have a qualified opinion.
I just asked for a feature.
And yes, I dont know shit about this, but I didnt know I needed a fucking doctorate in electronics to post in this thread, professor.
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Unseen
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Unseen »

maxtherabbit wrote:since limited range is retarded
Limited range digital RGB makes a lot more sense if you need to support both analog RGB and YPbPr using the same DAC: Both have basically the same range of valid codes in the digital domain and need a 700mV range on the analog side, so very little must be switched in the DAC when switching between the two output formats.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

Image
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

Unseen wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:since limited range is retarded
Limited range digital RGB makes a lot more sense if you need to support both analog RGB and YPbPr using the same DAC: Both have basically the same range of valid codes in the digital domain and need a 700mV range on the analog side, so very little must be switched in the DAC when switching between the two output formats.
Fair point
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

kitty666cats wrote:Image
That's the one I have that only works properly with full range
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

maxtherabbit wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:Image
That's the one I have that only works properly with full range
I know it's worked with both full and limited for me, but I can't remember for sure if I ever connected via VGA to LCD/LED monitors, or just 31+kHz CRT monitors :( I'll try to test again soon!
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

kitty666cats wrote:
I know it's worked with both full and limited for me, but I can't remember for sure if I ever connected via VGA to LCD/LED monitors, or just 31+kHz CRT monitors :( I'll try to test again soon!
I mean it will display an image with limited, but you get gray whites and blacks
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

maxtherabbit wrote: That's the one I have that only works properly with full range
I don't know if it's a limitation of my multiformat CRT's (which I've tried 3-4 of), but that HDMI to VGA converter also crops my image compared to the original HDMI source (which I have running at the same time right next to the CRT's so it's easy to tell... and this is part of what I mean when I said I really don't like any of these and would LOVE a proper one in the OSSC Pro.
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Josh128
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Wow, that blew up a bit! Im in the analog RGB/VGA out camp. Its fine if it has to come from the GPIO connector if some kind of adapter/dongle is made available, although a dedicated D-sub 15 port would be nice. :wink:
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

The possibility of VGA output is already mentioned in the first post, please read it carefully:
2x20 pin GPIO connector for future expansion possibilities such as:
* secondary video output (e.g. VGA) module
The main HDMI output can also be set to "HDMI (RGB Full)", "HDMI (RGB Limited)", "HDMI (YCbCr444)" and "DVI" modes to support various adapters & displays.
tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

marqs wrote:The possibility of VGA output is already mentioned in the first post, please read it carefully:
2x20 pin GPIO connector for future expansion possibilities such as:
* secondary video output (e.g. VGA) module
The main HDMI output can also be set to "HDMI (RGB Full)", "HDMI (RGB Limited)", "HDMI (YCbCr444)" and "DVI" modes to support various adapters & displays.
Thanks marqs, glad to know it's at least a possibility. Your new product might finally retire my XRGB-3 for good.
It's a very flexible port and it seems the VGA connector for it is easy to find, so I wouldnt mind if the final product didnt come with it preinstalled and I could just it install myself.
shroom2k
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by shroom2k »

Yeah, for me it would be nice to have an actual analog scaler, to be able to blow up native GBI and PSP resolutions to fullscreen on CRT.
But I realize this is an extremely uncommon use case.
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