OSSC Pro

[marqs]

well, you are getting intel fpgas right?

i believe intel, amd (xilinx) are on very high demand. besides lattice (who people always whine about) you probably should take a look at PolarFire FPGAs from Microchip. I don't see people talking much about them, probably worth a try.

They are, but production is slowly catching up demand. It would be nice to test PolarFire and Titanium (from Efinix) in general but with the limited spare time I have, changing such critical parts at this point would likely push the release even further.

+ I noticed for a while that main video ADC is now obsolete! with no replacement. probably you should get another one before releasing but it is up to you.

Can you name another video ADC which a) has equal or better robustness & performance b) doesn't require NDA for datasheet c) will be in production next 3 years or so?

So I'm wondering, with the OSSC Pro being a proper scaler, if it will support resolutions above 640x480 at higher refresh rates while potentially being more compatible? I don't expect 120hz+ but maybe 800x600 or 1024x768 at up to 85hz which were common back in the day. At the very least, making 640x480 up to 85hz more compatible would be nice.

It can convert to 1920x1080@50-120Hz which should be compatible with your second monitor.

[VEGETA]

Can you name another video ADC which a) has equal or better robustness & performance b) doesn't require NDA for datasheet c) will be in production next 3 years or so?

I believe ADV7800 is the best choice, or ADV7842 if you require HDMI Rx built in. They also offer AD9984A which is very similar to your choice. Another non-AD part would be THC7984-17 but it is not known as much. all of these are still in production and active. as for robustness that is up to you and what you mean by it... AD parts mentioned are known of being best in class full with features... worth looking into.

They are, but production is slowly catching up demand. It would be nice to test PolarFire and Titanium (from Efinix) in general but with the limited spare time I have, changing such critical parts at this point would likely push the release even further.

you know better of course... i just don't see people speak about microchip fpgas in retro scene. i believe it is hard for you to have 2 different designs and support firmware for both.

supply is catching up? what about price?

[marqs]

I believe ADV7800 is the best choice, or ADV7842 if you require HDMI Rx built in. They also offer AD9984A which is very similar to your choice. Another non-AD part would be THC7984-17 but it is not known as much. all of these are still in production and active. as for robustness that is up to you and what you mean by it... AD parts mentioned are known of being best in class full with features... worth looking into.

ADV7800 and AD9984A both have very limited LPF configurability on inputs, and use analog PLL which is likely to provide low jitter only on higher sampling clocks. I've kept ADV7842 as a backup option if absolutely needed at some point, but its lack of options on analog/sync frontend decrease my confidence on it working well with more challenging sources.

you know better of course... i just don't see people speak about microchip fpgas in retro scene. i believe it is hard for you to have 2 different designs and support firmware for both.

supply is catching up? what about price?

Intel/AMD prices are still 2-3x of pre-shortage levels and chips have some lead time, but capable PolarFire FPGAs are not very cheap either. Titanium FPGAs like TI120L484C3-ES seem to be aggressively priced but have poor availability so it's not great either way.

[VEGETA]

ADV7800 and AD9984A both have very limited LPF configurability on inputs, and use analog PLL which is likely to provide low jitter only on higher sampling clocks. I've kept ADV7842 as a backup option if absolutely needed at some point, but its lack of options on analog/sync frontend decrease my confidence on it working well with more challenging sources.

low pass filter? what more options do you require on this?

I guess AD has many scripts or docs to explain about PLL to get the best sampling rate for your desired input, didn't read it in a while.

what robustness feature in your ic still not available in these, which is likely to cause problems?

to my reading, in ad support, no one had a problem syncing to his source which didn't get fixed. adv7800 still active despite being kinda older than 7842 and probably cheaper as well.

[RuffNEC]

I believe ADV7800 is the best choice, or ADV7842 if you require HDMI Rx built in. They also offer AD9984A which is very similar to your choice. Another non-AD part would be THC7984-17 but it is not known as much. all of these are still in production and active. as for robustness that is up to you and what you mean by it... AD parts mentioned are known of being best in class full with features... worth looking into.

ADV7800 and AD9984A both have very limited LPF configurability on inputs, and use analog PLL which is likely to provide low jitter only on higher sampling clocks. I've kept ADV7842 as a backup option if absolutely needed at some point, but its lack of options on analog/sync frontend decrease my confidence on it working well with more challenging sources.

you might consider the ADV7844 over the ADV7842 as a backup. The ADV7842 has some cropping on top of the image going on not sure if it's adjustable.

https://www.analog.com/en/products/adv7 ... t-overview

[Bahn Yuki]

Marqs I know I asked this over a year ago, but any chance the ossc pro can do FRL2 (4k/60)? I was told that neither the morph4k or Tink4k will have support for FRL at all.

[marqs]

what robustness feature in your ic still not available in these, which is likely to cause problems?

At least video PLL coast controls are missing.

you might consider the ADV7844 over the ADV7842 as a backup. The ADV7842 has some cropping on top of the image going on not sure if it's adjustable.

Looks like it's the same with just additional HDMI inputs.

Marqs I know I asked this over a year ago, but any chance the ossc pro can do FRL2 (4k/60)? I was told that neither the morph4k or Tink4k will have support for FRL at all.

It uses TMDS (HDMI 1.4 transmitter). There are not very good FRL (or 4k60) solutions for hobbyists, especially if you're unwilling to sign any NDAs. Either you have to use FPGA with transceivers (expensive chips & IP) or duct tape multiple HDMI transmitter chips together and merge their output streams with yet another chip (enabling 4k60 but probably not FRL2).

[VEGETA]

At least video PLL coast controls are missing.

I don't understand what this feature is tbh, I know such chips will do PLL to output pixel clock necessary to produce the video. for what real-life case this thing can fix? I see products like tink and future morph using such mentioned ICs but they never mention there are sync problems when using them, despite using them with many sources.

BTW, how much does adv7842 cost? it is not sold on regular websites due to HDMI license required.

one last resort I can suggest to you is ADV7186, this requires NDA for development material but surely available to purchase freely. NDA might not even be needed if you show them how serious company with sales you are, then they will give you support for it.

it has even internal scaling features besides regular features. price is very low too and has all inputs imaginable.

[RuffNEC]

you might consider the ADV7844 over the ADV7842 as a backup. The ADV7842 has some cropping on top of the image going on not sure if it's adjustable.

Looks like it's the same with just additional HDMI inputs.

you're right so I guess the 7842 would be a bit cheaper. But apparenty both chips have the same problem. The image will be slighly cropped on top of the image (4lines) when used the default registers provided by analog out of the box. So it needs to be fixed like Onkyo did with their AV Recievers.

you actually can see a discussion goin on in their official forum about this. It could be easy tested with a "Snell & Wilcox" pattern
https://ez.analog.com/video/f/q-a/56822 ... ixels-down

For Video (LD, VHS , DVD) enthusiasts this still would be the most advanced AV 3D Combfilter Chip from Analog. Not sure how it would results in Gaming as all my consoles are RGB modded

[syboxez]

It uses TMDS (HDMI 1.4 transmitter). There are not very good FRL (or 4k60) solutions for hobbyists, especially if you're unwilling to sign any NDAs. Either you have to use FPGA with transceivers (expensive chips & IP) or duct tape multiple HDMI transmitter chips together and merge their output streams with yet another chip (enabling 4k60 but probably not FRL2).

What about using DisplayPort and then converting to HDMI? I know Intel does this for their GPUs. The PS196 chip can handle DP 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 with adaptive sync, so something like 4k120 with black frame insertion could theoretically be possible. Not sure if adaptive sync could help with things like 240p <-> 480i transitions.

"Source" for Intel using a converter: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/ ... te_1707161

[marqs]

I see products like tink and future morph using such mentioned ICs but they never mention there are sync problems when using them, despite using them with many sources.

So do Micomsoft products, and yet they have issues with some systems / games.

BTW, how much does adv7842 cost? it is not sold on regular websites due to HDMI license required.

Non-HDCP version (ADV7842KBCZ-5P) seems to be available at $10-15/pcs according to Octopart.

one last resort I can suggest to you is ADV7186, this requires NDA for development material but surely available to purchase freely. NDA might not even be needed if you show them how serious company with sales you are, then they will give you support for it.

I'd rather keep ADV7842 as the backup option as mentioed earlier and do digital processing on FPGA. I doubt they are very keen to support devs who publish drivers & instructions for their products for which they keep development materials under wraps.

[VEGETA]

Non-HDCP version (ADV7842KBCZ-5P) seems to be available at $10-15/pcs according to Octopart.

those are not trustworthy and shows "quote" instead of buy.

however, I found it on LCSC for about 12$ which is a bargain compared to adv7800 which is about 30-40$.

however, does adv7842 satisfy your requirements of digital pll and so on? i didn't find an info out there indicating that it clips the video as mentioned in the previous comments.

the mentioned thread of ad support seems to point out how to fix the issue, so can it be safely used then?

[GK6475]

What are the scaling options for 480p to 1080p? Is there a way to either 2x or 3x multiply the signal, then linear scale it up or down to 1920x1080? Also, is there aspect ratio correction that can be applied during scaling, for consoles like the GameCube which have incorrect aspect ratios at 1:1 pixel mapping (640x480 inside of a 720x480 signal for example)? Asking because my primary gaming display is a 1080p Panasonic Plasma.

[marqs]

What about using DisplayPort and then converting to HDMI? I know Intel does this for their GPUs. The PS196 chip can handle DP 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 with adaptive sync, so something like 4k120 with black frame insertion could theoretically be possible. Not sure if adaptive sync could help with things like 240p <-> 480i transitions.

DP doesn't help much as the main challenge is to get 15+Gbps out of the FPGA in a feasible way. Either you sacrifice lots of normal IO pins (capable of 200-300Mbps) and put several TX chips downstream, or use FPGA with >=6Gbps tranceivers and DP/HDMI IP (which neither is cheap to buy/develop). LVDS serdes could be a compromise option between these 2 extremes, but it's not entirely trivial either.

however, does adv7842 satisfy your requirements of digital pll and so on? i didn't find an info out there indicating that it clips the video as mentioned in the previous comments.

the mentioned thread of ad support seems to point out how to fix the issue, so can it be safely used then?

On paper ADV7842 looks good, but one would need do in-depth testing to really see how it performs.

What are the scaling options for 480p to 1080p? Is there a way to either 2x or 3x multiply the signal, then linear scale it up or down to 1920x1080? Also, is there aspect ratio correction that can be applied during scaling, for consoles like the GameCube which have incorrect aspect ratios at 1:1 pixel mapping (640x480 inside of a 720x480 signal for example)? Asking because my primary gaming display is a 1080p Panasonic Plasma.

At some point I had 2 scaler blocks in series which could have been used for such 2-phase approach, so it's a possibility. AR correction is there in 640x480 DC/PS2/GC presets.

[VEGETA]

the evaluation board for adv7842 is about 280$ which is very cheap. however, looks like you need their approval or some application to buy it. I do remember EZ support team offered me to buy it without mentioning anything. please inform me if you know how this works.

the chip itself is BGA only, but at 12$ no one should whine.

[marqs]

We're finally getting near the release of 1st batch. If everything goes as planned, the boards will be available on November. The price is likely to settle around $330 (remote control and PSU included). More information is found in VGP newsletter and further details will be published towards release.

[Josh128]

Looks good!! Glad to see its finally coming around.

[thchardcore]

With the Pro, does this mean problematic Toaplan V2 pcbs can finally be played on a VGA CRT or is this still a hardware specific anomaly of the Toaplan sync generation that the framebuffer will not be able to resolve?

[SavagePencil]

With the Pro, does this mean problematic Toaplan V2 pcbs can finally be played on a VGA CRT or is this still a hardware specific anomaly of the Toaplan sync generation that the framebuffer will not be able to resolve?

Might be value in revisiting those boards with the original OSSC and the new firmware. Sounds like if you have an earlier OSSC revision it’s a minor hardware mod to make it work.

[kitty666cats]

Oh wow, the price is 1/3 of a RetroTink 4K (tentative... Mike Chi said to put aside $1,000 to be safe) and also much lower than the PixelFX Morph (as far as I remember). This will be quite interesting to see how everything turns out, I assume the RT4K will have appeal for the "set it 'n forget it" types/OSSC Pro will be right up the alley of folks like most of us here on Shmups who like to tinker/got a gut feeling the PixelFX Morph will be a happy medium between the two.

The great scaler war is upon us! Jokes aside, this estimated price of the OSSC Pro is definitely going to be an interesting twist. I look forward to seeing more!

EDIT: Oh, the OSSC Pro isn't gonna have 4K output. Guess it's gonna be different strokes for different folks... I don't even have a 4K TV, so the OSSC Pro is still more appealing to me.

[Dr. Claw]

We're finally getting near the release of 1st batch. If everything goes as planned, the boards will be available on November. The price is likely to settle around $330 (remote control and PSU included). More information is found in VGP newsletter and further details will be published towards release.

Great news. BTW, does the Pro allow RGsB over SCART like the original OSSC?

[SGGG2]

Does scaler mode have masking and resizing? Sharp bilinear scaling? Is it possible to feed line doubling content into scaler mode?

[ZellSF]

I am again curious about the lag. What are the lag numbers in the three modes (pure/adaptive/framebuffer)? How about while deinterlacing? I asked earlier but got no answer, maybe because it was too early, but we should have some numbers by now?

Also a bit of a long shot, but has anyone tested this with Mister FPGA PSX core and 480i content?

[marqs]

With the Pro, does this mean problematic Toaplan V2 pcbs can finally be played on a VGA CRT or is this still a hardware specific anomaly of the Toaplan sync generation that the framebuffer will not be able to resolve?

Might be value in revisiting those boards with the original OSSC and the new firmware. Sounds like if you have an earlier OSSC revision it’s a minor hardware mod to make it work.

The anomality in Toaplan is such severe that a fast-locking PLL and ability to operate without continuous line-lock are needed, thus only Pro is capable of that.

EDIT: Oh, the OSSC Pro isn't gonna have 4K output. Guess it's gonna be different strokes for different folks... I don't even have a 4K TV, so the OSSC Pro is still more appealing to me.

Well, it is still able to output 2880x2160@60 with TX pixel repetition which is kinda good compromise for 4:3 content.

Great news. BTW, does the Pro allow RGsB over SCART like the original OSSC?

Yes, the available inputs are a superset of OSSC classic.

Does scaler mode have masking and resizing? Sharp bilinear scaling? Is it possible to feed line doubling content into scaler mode?

Scaler mode has size & position options. By default sampled window size is scaled to fullscreen (honoring source aspect ratio) unless integer mode is selected. Sharp bilinear etc. typical algorithms are available and custom ones can be loaded from SD card. At some point I had nearest neighbor prescaler option for testing so it's a possibility.

I am again curious about the lag. What are the lag numbers in the three modes (pure/adaptive/framebuffer)? How about while deinterlacing? I asked earlier but got no answer, maybe because it was too early, but we should have some numbers by now?

Pure LM: <3 scanlines
Adaptive LM: <50 scanlines
Scaler (framelock): ~1 frame/field
Scaler (no framelock): 1-2 frames/fields

There's room for improment in scaler mode, so eventually framelocked mode latency should reduce close to A-LM latency.

[awe444]

Just curious, will 480p --> 480i conversion will be possible on the Pro?

Sounds like this particular feature will be missing from the Tink 4k (despite being present on RT5X). It'd be nice if at least one of the HDMI-inputtable scalers could do it

[fernan1234]

Sounds like this particular feature will be missing from the Tink 4k (despite being present on RT5X). It'd be nice if at least one of the HDMI-inputtable scalers could do it

Where did you see that this might be missing? From what I know, the Tink4K will be able to output custom modelines, so users could use a custom modeline for interlaced SD video.

[awe444]

Sounds like this particular feature will be missing from the Tink 4k (despite being present on RT5X). It'd be nice if at least one of the HDMI-inputtable scalers could do it

Where did you see that this might be missing? From what I know, the Tink4K will be able to output custom modelines, so users could use a custom modeline for interlaced SD video.

In the discord Mike stated the custom modelines won't support interlaced output:
https://discord.com/channels/9305678950 ... 6011970641

[Guspaz]

The RT4K does not currently support downscaling, so 480i output would not be useful. Maybe Mike will take another crack at it in the future.

[awe444]

The RT4K does not currently support downscaling, so 480i output would not be useful. Maybe Mike will take another crack at it in the future.

Given Mike's track record, it's almost certain to happen at some point

What about the OSSC Pro? Does it have 480p --> 480i capability?

[vol.2]

It'd be nice if at least one of the HDMI-inputtable scalers could do it

I just use a simple HDMI->VGA adapter and feed it to an Extron VSC700. It looks fantastic in 480i