OSSC Pro

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GK6475
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by GK6475 »

Would the OSSC Pro allow custom output resolutions, specifically total pixel adjustment? My CRT monitor accepts a very specific 1080p input, which consoles do not normally output, and I wanted to use regular 1080p consoles with the monitor through the OSSC pro, when it comes out. I have an HDMI to VGA converter that works for this purpose.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

GK6475 wrote:Would the OSSC Pro allow custom output resolutions, specifically total pixel adjustment? My CRT monitor accepts a very specific 1080p input, which consoles do not normally output, and I wanted to use regular 1080p consoles with the monitor through the OSSC pro, when it comes out. I have an HDMI to VGA converter that works for this purpose.
It's possible to modify output timings even though I've not exposed that feature yet (most people should stick to the standard ones to maximize compatibility). You don't need to convert HDMI to VGA to do this since the HW has HDMI input.
SuperSpongo
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by SuperSpongo »

Man, I'm really looking forward to downscaling features with HDMI. Should be really cool for the classic mini consoles.
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Gunstar
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Gunstar »

GK6475 wrote:Would the OSSC Pro allow custom output resolutions, specifically total pixel adjustment? My CRT monitor accepts a very specific 1080p input, which consoles do not normally output, and I wanted to use regular 1080p consoles with the monitor through the OSSC pro, when it comes out. I have an HDMI to VGA converter that works for this purpose.
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+1 for this feature, 1080p 'reformatted' to an output/timing accepted by a PC CRT would be great
strayan
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by strayan »

marqs wrote: It's possible to modify output timings even though I've not exposed that feature yet (most people should stick to the standard ones to maximize compatibility). You don't need to convert HDMI to VGA to do this since the HW has HDMI input.
Reduced blanking CVT would be most appreciated :mrgreen:
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jay_are
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by jay_are »

SuperSpongo wrote:Man, I'm really looking forward to downscaling features with HDMI. Should be really cool for the classic mini consoles.
Me too!! That's my whole reason of being haha. I use a Raspberry Pi and absolutely love it, but no one knows if the next RPi would drop Composite output. At which point we might just use any SBC...
I think the OSSC Pro itself plays FPGA cores :mrgreen: It's possible the 240p Composite on the OSSC Pro might look better than the Raspberry Pi too, not sure, but I'm assuming this will have specific timings meant for games to look better that the Raspberry Pi lacks.

I also wanna play games that are only made for PC that can fit well inside 4:3 240p

I may even be motivated to develop a game or 2 meant to play on CRTs! :mrgreen:
GK6475
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by GK6475 »

Would it be possible to crop a 720x480 signal to 640x480 and scale that to integer-stretched 1280x480 with the OSSC Pro? Many of my GameCube games won't fill up the whole screen as is, due to the CRT not having very good horizontal adjustment for specifically 720x480 signals. However, 1280x480 works fine on the monitor, being able to fill up the whole screen. I would just have 640x480 output, but that creates an odd blinking line near the edge of the monitor.

Also, would resolutions such as 960x240@120hz and/or 1280x240@120hz be supported for 240p output to the CRT? 640x240@120hz also creates the blinking line.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

GK6475 wrote:Would it be possible to crop a 720x480 signal to 640x480 and scale that to integer-stretched 1280x480 with the OSSC Pro? Many of my GameCube games won't fill up the whole screen as is, due to the CRT not having very good horizontal adjustment for specifically 720x480 signals. However, 1280x480 works fine on the monitor, being able to fill up the whole screen. I would just have 640x480 output, but that creates an odd blinking line near the edge of the monitor.
The current firmware has "DC/PS2/GC 640col" sampling preset for 480i/p sources which samples 640x448 area. It can be then integer-scaled to whichever output resolution. For CRTs there is "480p_CRT (60-120Hz)" output mode which maximizes horizontal resolution (2560 pixels) for best flexibility.
GK6475 wrote:Also, would resolutions such as 960x240@120hz and/or 1280x240@120hz be supported for 240p output to the CRT? 640x240@120hz also creates the blinking line.
In a similar way there is "240p_CRT (60-120Hz)" output mode with width of 2560.

For HD CRT owners there are also "540p_CRT (50-60Hz)" and "1920x1080i (50-60Hz)" modes available.
GK6475
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by GK6475 »

Awesome! I will be looking forward to those features. And I also have an HD CRT, so 1080i/540p will be very nice for that.
copy
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by copy »

Apparently the Pro release is canceled for now? Tweets from VGP:

https://twitter.com/VGPerfection/status ... 0870764546
OSSC Pro looks lovely in this prototype 3D printed case! We came so close to getting this released... such a shame, hopefully we still can one day.
...
Exactly that [parts shortage issues], to release now based on prices the suppliers are quoting us, the RRP would have to be over one thousand US dollars.
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bobrocks95
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

I asked if it was the FPGA taking up most of the price and VGP said yes. For an example of how bad the FPGA supply chain is right now, look at Analogue's Super NT and Mega SG restocks being 1) final and 2) shipping literally a full year from now (with full price upfront pre-order).

I don't know if Xilinx or Altera have an effective monopoly on top of that, where one brand is much more advanced than the other and the only option for high-end components. I'd have to see what Mister, RT5X, OSSC Pro, Analogue, etc are using.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

copy wrote:Apparently the Pro release is canceled for now? Tweets from VGP:

https://twitter.com/VGPerfection/status ... 0870764546
It's in the same state as it was a year ago, i.e. waiting for component availability and pricing to return to reasonable level.
bobrocks95 wrote:I don't know if Xilinx or Altera have an effective monopoly on top of that, where one brand is much more advanced than the other and the only option for high-end components.
It's not just the mid/high-end FPGAs costing 10x the normal price. For example, the quotes we've got for FPGAs used in much simpler cps2_digiav project are multiple times what the whole BOM used to be in the past. Big players (corporations, military etc.) with more direct links to FPGA manufacturers can still have somewhat normal access to their products, but to get that status they have to commit to buying tens of thousands of FPGAs each year.
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bobrocks95
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

I wonder why FPGAs seem to be hit harder than other chip categories? Maybe supply chain issues as a whole aren't as resolved as reporting makes it sound like they are.
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H6rdc0re
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by H6rdc0re »

bobrocks95 wrote:I wonder why FPGAs seem to be hit harder than other chip categories? Maybe supply chain issues as a whole aren't as resolved as reporting makes it sound like they are.
Used in weapon systems perhaps?
kebrank
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kebrank »

I'm wondering if it would be possible to add a vertical/horizontal size control for the RGB analog signal. Ideally, to use it as a pass through for users that have CRTs like TVs with no controls over the image size. There are JAMMA adapters out there that allows you to shift the image vertically/horizontally but none of them can adjust the size.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

kebrank wrote:I'm wondering if it would be possible to add a vertical/horizontal size control for the RGB analog signal. Ideally, to use it as a pass through for users that have CRTs like TVs with no controls over the image size. There are JAMMA adapters out there that allows you to shift the image vertically/horizontally but none of them can adjust the size.
\o/.k.
For clarity, you're referring to video scaling.

I'm sure someone will flame this description, they always do. Let's go ahead and assume perfect sampling. : If you had a mosaic and you wanted to expand it by one column and one row with an absolutely identical final image, how would you perform that operation without changing any of the existing tiles (handling them as "passthrough")?

You wouldn't. That's why you need proper video scaling.
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kebrank
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kebrank »

orange808 wrote:
kebrank wrote:I'm wondering if it would be possible to add a vertical/horizontal size control for the RGB analog signal. Ideally, to use it as a pass through for users that have CRTs like TVs with no controls over the image size. There are JAMMA adapters out there that allows you to shift the image vertically/horizontally but none of them can adjust the size.
\o/.k.
For clarity, you're referring to video scaling.

I'm sure someone will flame this description, they always do. Let's go ahead and assume perfect sampling. : If you had a mosaic and you wanted to expand it by one column and one row with an absolutely identical final image, how would you perform that operation without changing any of the existing tiles (handling them as "passthrough")?

You wouldn't. That's why you need proper video scaling.
It's called vertical/horizontal size adjustment on every CRT monitor, similar to vertical/horizontal shift adjustment that is already done with cheap JAMMA passthrough devices and superguns and no processing. I'm not talking about upscaling, etc. Just getting the 15 Khz analog image, control the vertical/horizontal size and output it as 15 Khz analog. I don't know how CRT monitors do this or what it's needed to accomplish it, just asking if this is feasible with the OSSC Pro.

\o/.k.
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

kebrank wrote: It's called vertical/horizontal size adjustment on every CRT monitor, similar to vertical/horizontal shift adjustment that is already done with cheap JAMMA passthrough devices and superguns and no processing. I'm not talking about upscaling, etc. Just getting the 15 Khz analog image, control the vertical/horizontal size and output it as 15 Khz analog. I don't know how CRT monitors do this or what it's needed to accomplish it, just asking if this is feasible with the OSSC Pro.
You're not quite understanding orange808. What he's saying is as soon as you tweak the actual width and/or height of the image that IS scaling the image. It's NOT similar to centering as you mentioned whatsoever. Centering like you said is easy - tons of devices do it - and they can do it because it's not per say changing the actual visual video output at all, it's just moving the existing image left or right, up or down... but as soon as you stretch or shrink, that then involves scaling which is a whole other ball game.
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bobrocks95
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

In theory you could feed 240p into the OSSC Pro, scale the image as required, and then output the picture downscaled back to 240p. Assuming it has free zooming controls and downscaling to begin with.

Horizontal/vertical position just modifies the front and back porches- easy to do without processing and the base OSSC can do it digitally as well. Zooming/scaling/anything that modifies the dimensions of the actual picture image requires a scaler, or in the special case of a CRT, modifying the circuitry that "paints" the image on the phosphors.
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kebrank
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kebrank »

Dochartaigh wrote:
kebrank wrote: It's called vertical/horizontal size adjustment on every CRT monitor, similar to vertical/horizontal shift adjustment that is already done with cheap JAMMA passthrough devices and superguns and no processing. I'm not talking about upscaling, etc. Just getting the 15 Khz analog image, control the vertical/horizontal size and output it as 15 Khz analog. I don't know how CRT monitors do this or what it's needed to accomplish it, just asking if this is feasible with the OSSC Pro.
You're not quite understanding orange808. What he's saying is as soon as you tweak the actual width and/or height of the image that IS scaling the image. It's NOT similar to centering as you mentioned whatsoever. Centering like you said is easy - tons of devices do it - and they can do it because it's not per say changing the actual visual video output at all, it's just moving the existing image left or right, up or down... but as soon as you stretch or shrink, that then involves scaling which is a whole other ball game.
Got it, I understand. This will need some image processing.
Thank you,
\o/.k.
kebrank
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kebrank »

bobrocks95 wrote:In theory you could feed 240p into the OSSC Pro, scale the image as required, and then output the picture downscaled back to 240p. Assuming it has free zooming controls and downscaling to begin with.
That would be great. I hope the OSSC PRO developer offers this adjustment. I would gladly buy one for just this functionality.

\o/.k.
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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

kebrank wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:In theory you could feed 240p into the OSSC Pro, scale the image as required, and then output the picture downscaled back to 240p. Assuming it has free zooming controls and downscaling to begin with.
That would be great. I hope the OSSC PRO developer offers this adjustment. I would gladly buy one for just this functionality.

\o/.k.
what is the gain from doing this?

I can think of that original 240p is actually just a 480i signal but without one of the fields. upscaling it to say 480p makes it progressive with full frame, then downscaling it to 240p will make it 240p with full frame no scan lines.
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Kez
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Kez »

kebrank wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:In theory you could feed 240p into the OSSC Pro, scale the image as required, and then output the picture downscaled back to 240p. Assuming it has free zooming controls and downscaling to begin with.
That would be great. I hope the OSSC PRO developer offers this adjustment. I would gladly buy one for just this functionality.

\o/.k.
I think it's unlikely that this will happen. First of all, if I understand correctly, I don't think the signal really has any control over the vertical height of the image (unless you duplicate or remove lines from the output - which would not look good). CRTs change vertical height by increasing the space between the lines drawn - only the CRT circuitry can do this. I guess horizontal would be possible to shrink the image as you could keep the same horizontal resolution and pad the ends of the lines with black, but I don't think you could increase the width as again this is determined by the width of the sweeps the CRT electron gun is making.

So yeah, any functionality a scaler could offer would be extremely limited, and the use case is so niche that I don't think anyone will even attempt it. Your best bet is to just use CRTs that have these controls available!
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

Dochartaigh wrote:
kebrank wrote: It's called vertical/horizontal size adjustment on every CRT monitor, similar to vertical/horizontal shift adjustment that is already done with cheap JAMMA passthrough devices and superguns and no processing. I'm not talking about upscaling, etc. Just getting the 15 Khz analog image, control the vertical/horizontal size and output it as 15 Khz analog. I don't know how CRT monitors do this or what it's needed to accomplish it, just asking if this is feasible with the OSSC Pro.
You're not quite understanding orange808. What he's saying is as soon as you tweak the actual width and/or height of the image that IS scaling the image. It's NOT similar to centering as you mentioned whatsoever. Centering like you said is easy - tons of devices do it - and they can do it because it's not per say changing the actual visual video output at all, it's just moving the existing image left or right, up or down... but as soon as you stretch or shrink, that then involves scaling which is a whole other ball game.
In ALM mode it's possible to "copy" (ideally perfectly sampled) 240p active window into another 240p signal that has different amount of lines and/or different line length. Whether that has the desired effect on a CRT might vary, though.

In scaler mode size controls are available, but then it's no more a "lossless" translation.
GK6475
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by GK6475 »

Will there be any adaptive dedithering filters on the OSSC Pro? There are some shaders (like mdapt, inside the dithering shader folder) on RetroArch that work great for N64 games under the Angrylion video plugin, and It would be great to see this done with an actual N64.
Left=dither, Right=dedither filtering
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

GK6475 wrote:Will there be any adaptive dedithering filters on the OSSC Pro? There are some shaders (like mdapt, inside the dithering shader folder) on RetroArch that work great for N64 games under the Angrylion video plugin, and It would be great to see this done with an actual N64.
I think that's within capabilities of the HW, but at the moment nobody is working on such special features as there is lack of boards and (somewhat consequently) developers working on them.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

The component availability situation has somewhat improved lately, but certain specialty parts like FPGAs are still out of reach in near term. We've received word from suppliers that things might get better in latter half of 2023, but the confidence is low. It's unfortunate that release is not yet in sight considering near-final prototypes were delivered already 2 years ago, but there's not much small players like us can do.
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bobrocks95
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

marqs wrote:The component availability situation has somewhat improved lately, but certain specialty parts like FPGAs are still out of reach in near term. We've received word from suppliers that things might get better in latter half of 2023, but the confidence is low. It's unfortunate that release is not yet in sight considering near-final prototypes were delivered already 2 years ago, but there's not much small players like us can do.
That sucks to hear. Mike Chi also indicated on Twitter that Intel won't respond to any of his sale inquiries for Altera chips. I'm not sure which markets are keeping them in such high demand but they must be big players to be completely strangling the supply on them.
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GK6475
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by GK6475 »

Would it be possible to implement 3D LUT profile applying at some point for the OSSC Pro? Would love to get some proper gamma/color correction on my CRT displays.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

GK6475 wrote:Would it be possible to implement 3D LUT profile applying at some point for the OSSC Pro? Would love to get some proper gamma/color correction on my CRT displays.
For 8bpc (bits per channel) a 3D LUT would need (2^8)^3=16.7M entries, thus it doesn't fit into FPGA block RAM. Storing it in external DRAM is neither feasible as that means a random access for every pixel which would be very inefficient and jam the interface especially on higher resolutions. I'm more towards a CMU approach which would have 3x1D LUT on both input and output side with a 3x3 CSC matrix in between.
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