OSSC Pro

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Lawfer
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Lawfer »

marqs wrote:
XtraSmiley wrote:New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?
The HW configuration is currently being finalized. As mentioned in the previous page, the largest pending item is selection and verification of suitable HDMI transmitter with potential support for 2560x1440@60Hz and 1920x1080@120Hz in mind. The design could implement one or both in a couple ways (in increasing order of challenge):
Do you know if Line4X for the PSP (480x272 -> 1920x1088) could be possible for the OSSC Pro? Right now the OSSC can do Line2X, which is 480x272 -> 960x544.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Unseen wrote: If the HDMI TX chip can send arbitrary infoframes
On a related note, what does it take at a technical level for the display to think it's receiving a variable refresh rate (VRR) video feed? I know there's the official support in the HDMI 2.1 signaling, but AMD FreeSync / VESA Adaptive-Sync was definitely a thing on many HDMI 1.4 PC displays (the reason 144 hz displays became a thing as 1080p @ 144 hz @ 8-bit RGB is the bandwidth limit of HDMI 1.4...) and many HDMI TVs/monitors seem to work with VRR if you convince the GPU to send VRR via a modified EDID that claims the display supports VRR (admittedly in a pretty narrow range around ~60 hz, but broad enough for correct timings on vintage game consoles and arcade boards).

This is a big issue as many consumer TVs seem to only enable their lowest latency modes when they think there's a VRR video feed coming in.
Custom infoframes can be sent with both chip candicates, bigger challenge is what actually needs to be done for the video stream to properly support these features. For HDR, gamma correction is needed as mentioned. For VRR, custom sync generation and source signal locking logic is a requirement.
Lawfer wrote:
marqs wrote:
XtraSmiley wrote:New year, new update?

@marqs, can we get a quick rundown on where you are with the project? Any updates on the fancy new case?
The HW configuration is currently being finalized. As mentioned in the previous page, the largest pending item is selection and verification of suitable HDMI transmitter with potential support for 2560x1440@60Hz and 1920x1080@120Hz in mind. The design could implement one or both in a couple ways (in increasing order of challenge):
Do you know if Line4X for the PSP (480x272 -> 1920x1088) could be possible for the OSSC Pro? Right now the OSSC can do Line2X, which is 480x272 -> 960x544.
It is definitely possible, in one way or another. For adaptive LM de-letterboxing is a challenge as source vertical active/total ratio is very different to output, but the plan is to change line buffer mapping from a fixed configuration (40 line buffers of 2048 samples each) to selectable sets (e.g. 160 line buffers of 512 samples each which would be optimal for PSP). Scaler mode should support transformations up to certain maximum resolution / pixel clock with more flexibility.
AtomicFire
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by AtomicFire »

marqs wrote:
About the case, we're currently looking for a designer for prototype 3D-printed enclosure which might be also used for production if injection mold / CNC starts to look prohibitely expensive. Anyone with interest and right experience could contact me or BuckoA51.
I am very interested in helping with a case either for 3d printing or injection molding. I have over 10 years of experience in 3d modeling and 3d printing, and would love to help on a project like this
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

marqs wrote:About the case...
Is the last PCB photo you posted close to the final design?

I ask because people seem to want a proper case for the OSSC Pro so it better fits their lifestyle. So it looks like anything else they might have proudly displayed in their entertainment center or desk. Something tidy, neat, PROfessional, and high-end!

...your PCB design, with THREE ports on the SIDES, where wires/cables, expansion ports/devices/etc. are going to be plugged into and TOTALLY visible, will NEVER, EVER, look tidy, neat, PROfessional, or high-end, no matter what the case looks like. Once it's setup and everything plugged in it's going to look super messy and undesirable, like another DIY frankenstein project, just like the current OSSC does.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the reality is I'm looking at my entertainment center right now, the centerpiece of most peoples homes, the place where EVERYBODY hangs out when I have people over, and there's 12x devices proudly displayed there right now – everything from a 1980 10" CRT TV as a conversation piece, to a cutting edge Xbox, and what do ALL of these have in common? NOT A SINGLE WIRE SHOWS FROM THE FRONT of any device. Not even one. Nowhere. Every single device has ALL the connections coming off the back (hell, of the ~50ish transcoders/converters I've owned only ONE has a plug I use on the front or side lol - an Extron 580xi - EVERYTHING else goes straight out the back!). They all look super tidy. I didn't even have to do anything special to hide wires because everything simply runs straight off the back of my entertainment unit (into the void behind which nobody sees that mess of wires lol ;) Again, this will not be possible with the OSSC Pro if the design of the last PCB stays the same.




marqs wrote:we're currently looking for a designer for prototype 3D-printed enclosure which might be also used for production if injection mold / CNC starts to look prohibitely expensive. Anyone with interest and right experience could contact me or BuckoA51.
I'm an Industrial (Product) Designer, but changed career paths about 15 years ago and have not kept up on my CAD – wish I could help more... but from a few minutes of brainstorming, IF (and ONLY if!) the current PCB has no hope whatsoever of getting ALL the ports moved to the back, the only way I can see the OSSC Pro looking like a high-end piece of scaling magnificence would be to hide those side areas with their plugs and modules and such sticking out of them somehow...

...maybe having two "wings" coming off both the left and right side of the case (the wings running all the way to the back of the case so it looks cohesive) so it can hide those unsightly wires/modules hanging off the sides would do it. This would be a band-aid, but would at least make the OSSC Pro look like every other electronics-box we own with NO clearly visible wires/modules hanging off the sides.

I believe those "wings" would also have be modular, detachable, and switchable (which means more molds and higher price). I say this because I assume those side ports are where those additional modules you talked about (CV/YC input module(s), latency tester, controller ports, etc.) are going to plug into? And I assume those modules are going to be different sizes and shapes from each other, and will also need different holes for whatever is plugging into them (front facing for controller ports and the like, probably rear facing for most everything else), so the only way to keep the case design cohesive is to have modularity on those "wings" so they can be replaced depending on the module.

Those wings (the unique wings needed for each different type of module), although the finish wouldn't match 100%, would be a great candidate for 3d printing. The OSSC Pro's case would of course need a connection method built into it which these different wings can click into.

OR, you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...
Last edited by Dochartaigh on Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Dochartaigh wrote:you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...
This was discussed earlier. That's kind of the price you pay for using the large, bulky connector type known as SCART. It's just going to take up a lot of space no matter what. Just take it as an incentive to switch to the superior DSub club :D
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

fernan1234 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:you can simply have all the ports coming off the rear and not have to worry about this (kinda crazy) added complexity lol...
This was discussed earlier. That's kind of the price you pay for using the large, bulky connector type known as SCART. It's just going to take up a lot of space no matter what. Just take it as an incentive to switch to the superior DSub club :D
Hey, the original OSSC (which seems to be a smaller PCB) has the SCART on the back like it should be at least! I mean personally, I think they designed it UPSIDE-DOWN on the OSSC so the SCART cable angles AWAY from the OSSC's body, which makes the cable even MORE noticeable, but it's there at least for those that need it lol.
Sirotaca
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Sirotaca »

Dochartaigh wrote:Hey, the original OSSC (which seems to be a smaller PCB) has the SCART on the back like it should be at least! I mean personally, I think they designed it UPSIDE-DOWN on the OSSC so the SCART cable angles AWAY from the OSSC's body, which makes the cable even MORE noticeable, but it's there at least for those that need it lol.
If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input. Putting the SCART connector on the side on the OSSC Pro is the right call. That way the cable angles toward the back instead of the side, which is one of the more awkward aspects of the original OSSC in my setup.
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

Sirotaca wrote:If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input.
No, it doesn't, it's perfectly fine. Even when you're using one of those HUGE metal SCART heads that are like 30% larger. Here's a quick mock-up with one of my SCART heads I rewired for a RP3 hat back in the day.

Image
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Fudoh »

but to be honest: these are flimsy component cables...
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

Fudoh wrote:but to be honest: these are flimsy component cables...
Damn, tough crowd here ;)

The above isn't good enough for you lol? Those are official Sony OEM PS2 Component cables.


How about this? Is this more industry-standard/modern? HD Retrovision PS2 Component cables with RetroGamingCables.uk SCART cable JUST clear each other (and if designed this way there also looks to be room to move over the component inputs about 1/4" for a bit more clearance).

Image



Anyway, I don't mean to throw this topic off-track. Was just trying to demonstrate how design considerations dealing with how people are going to use these devices in their homes, once they're ALL setup and FULL of wires with modules and whatnot plugged-in (in the case of the OSSC Pro), should be made from the PCB design level on-up. ESPECIALLY if you're really committed to upping your game with this Pro version with a well-designed case, taking into consideration the FULL reality of how people are going to use these and integrate them into their home setups.
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

vol.2 wrote:DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.
+9000
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

vol.2 wrote:DE-15 is just much better than SCART because it's more compact and it has physical screw-in connectors to keep it in place and to act as strain relief. Also, high quality DE15 cables are cheap and widely available in any thrift store.
Amen. We need to spread the good word on DE15 with evangelical fervor. Maybe some day the retro gaming hobby landscape will change for the better by slowly phasing out SHART*.

*(all in good fun, nothing against people who use and even like SCART, though I do have a bit of resentment at the fact that so much cool gear obviously has to follow the majority trend and make compromises to include this bulky, inconvenient consumer-level connector type.)
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Josh128
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Dochartaigh wrote:
Sirotaca wrote:If it were angled the other way, it would interfere with the component input.
No, it doesn't, it's perfectly fine. Even when you're using one of those HUGE metal SCART heads that are like 30% larger. Here's a quick mock-up with one of my SCART heads I rewired for a RP3 hat back in the day.

Image
Agree that "this is the way". If the SCART head would face the other direction, it massively increases the side to side area the box needs to sit on a shelf or in a cabinet. Its fucking unwieldy enough already in this proper direction.

BTW, +1 for the Kabeldirekt SCART cable. Those things are so huge and stiff you could whip the shit out of someone with them should the need arise. :mrgreen:
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler
Image
We apologise for the inconvenience
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

orange808 wrote:Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler
Composite Cables HERE
True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

vol.2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler
Composite Cables HERE
True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.
I don't like sync on green. :)

I use this one:
Spoiler
Image
We apologise for the inconvenience
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NormalFish
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by NormalFish »

Josh128 wrote:Agree that "this is the way". If the SCART head would face the other direction, it massively increases the side to side area the box needs to sit on a shelf or in a cabinet. Its fucking unwieldy enough already in this proper direction.
Yeah, just as long as you don't plug anything in to that superfluous AV Out port.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

orange808 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
orange808 wrote:Others will have cables like these.
Spoiler
Composite Cables HERE
True, but that requires a lot more holes. If you want to represent colors and sync (possibly both H and V) you're going to end up with a lot more jacks. One DE-15 jack can handle all of those signals and then some, plus it's got physical screw-in connectors on the sides.

You can always just one of these dudes Image

It's a hell of lot easier than SCART shenanigans.
I don't like sync on green. :)

I use this one:
Spoiler
Image
Man I love those Optoma adapters, I just wish they had a dang audio breakout... so annoying that they didn’t include one. What is your output that you usually connect the Optoma to, a SCART switch with a female socket?
Galgomite
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Galgomite »

They make SCART to DB15 adapters, would that solve the problem?
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

ross wrote:If we were abandoning the majority trend, I'd go full hog and put BNC on there, especially on a 'pro' device
It's definitely more pro in the sense that it has been and continues to be the standard connector for professional equipment, but the problem is that it takes up a lot of space. That where the "subminiature" of D-sub has the advantage. It may not be the pro standard, but it's still above the old consumer SCART level, and it can do everything that both BNC and SCART can while taking up much less physical space, and that along with the availability of "VGA" cables and adapters should make it the default for high quality devices in hobby spaces like this.
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

ross wrote: It can't do everything BNC can though, otherwise it would be the professional standard.
BNC is only necessary over *very* long cable runs. Anything normal and you are not going to see any difference whatsoever. There was a time in the early 90's that monitors were using special connectors to enhance theoretical bandwidth (SUN and SONY both did), but by the end of the 90's, they were completely abandoned because it made no real-world difference. You have to get longer than 10' before it's even detectable, and I don't think a person could tell by looking at it until it was even longer than that (like 20' or more). If you were pushing *lots* of pixels and using a shit ton of bandwidth, you might have issues at more than 6'.

The reason that BNC continued to be used in video was more to do with the fact that it was the defacto standard in all TV studios already. This was true long before RGB was being used and it has nothing to do with the BNC RGB standard used by high resolution monitors in the 90's. BNC was chosen for studios because it locks securely and can be quickly changed. Multiple DE15 connectors wouldn't make sense for production equipment for many reasons, but mainly because a lot of them continued to use composite video for feeds, and didn't need the whole host of pins (and also they do use very long runs).
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

ross wrote:It can't do everything BNC can though, otherwise it would be the professional standard. The very small connector body makes cabling, impedance matching, and long cable runs a headache, it's why BNC cables are separated across each channel. DE-15 probably has more in common with SCART than BNC, both being single body 15+ pin connectors and standards originally intended for use with either home AV equipment or PCs.
I guess I should have qualified further by saying that it can do everything that BNC can do as far as our purposes are concerned. We're not analogue video broadcasters, we just want to play games and watch nice video content here.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

We’re going to be stuck with SCART for years whether we like it or not, the popular websites / YouTubers / cable and converter manufacturers have cemented it in for at LEAST another ~2 years... don’t get me wrong, I really wish there were *readily* available BNC cables for every console (moreso I wish DE-15, but I think people have probably avoided it due to the inevitable headache of noobs not reading and getting confused when their 15kHz consoles don’t work on VGA monitors).

Also kinda shocked that nobody has decided to mass-produce female SCART to DE-15 + audio cables (with sync strippers in them if needed). I know RGC UK used to make some marketed towards Extron interfaces / I know there are some PCBs out there such as the Sync Strike + Slayer, but now more than ever some simple cables seem like a no-brainer: VGA switches/matrices can be found for an absolute steal, GBScontrol is very popular, etc etc...

I can’t stop singing the praises of the Insurrection Industries SCART2DVI, those things are great... $35 with free shipping / I simply stick male DVI-A/I to male VGA dongles on the end... they should really do another run with either VGA out or an included VGA dongle! They have on/off switchable LM1881’s and LPFs, the LPF is meant for the Datapath capture cards they’re designed for but also is great for AV3 on the OG OSSC!
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

ross wrote:The chance of there being a perceptible difference in picture quality with 15 kHz video using good BNC cables and good DE-15 cables at 6 or so feet is low, but that's the case with good SCART cables too. Point is if you're wanting to push a different connector on these niche pro video processors, I think it might be worth considering the actually 'pro' connector that's not at all uncommon with the professional CRTs and high end PC monitors people are already using. It's not like DE-15 is exactly plug and play either.
The key point is that for our purposes SCART v DE-15 v BNC can produce equal results in terms of video quality as well as shielding for audio, but in terms of product design, space saving, ease of connectivity (SCART is easy to plug--and accidentally unplug!--but you have to mind the end as it is annoyingly unidirectional), and availability and affordability of cables, the DE-15 beats the other two options by quite a bit. As for pro CRTs and such having BNC connectors, "VGA to BNC" cables are cheap and plentiful, as mentioned earlier.

That would be the crucial advantage of DE-15 as the standard for our hobby scene, but as kitty666cats just rightly pointed out the scene is gonna be stuck with SCART for the near future at least due to path dependence, sadly.
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

ross wrote: Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P
It's pretty ridiculous. And think about how much harder it's going to be to get SCART stuff going forward. How long will new decent quality connectors even be available for?

We are stuck with SCART for now, but we'll all be forced away from SCART in due time.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id= ... CKEALw_wcB

Image

These + console5.com = a great solution for DIY DE-15 cables, btw ;)
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

ross wrote: DE-15 is hardly professional though, is it?
I'd argue that it is. Not used by video professionals, but used by professionals using video :lol:

i.e. business conference presentations etc.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

ross wrote:Guess I've just never felt DE-15 has that much of an advantage when it comes to practicality, convenience, availability, etc., then putting it down to cabling and picture quality.

Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P
that's why - in north america high quality surplus VGA cables and switchers are cheap and abundant, whereas everything SCART is boutique and niche
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by spmbx »

vol.2 wrote:
ross wrote: Though maybe living in Europe where everything is SCART enabled makes a difference. I'm shocked North Americans didn't drop SCART the day they learned they'd have to shell out $240 for a gscartsw :P
It's pretty ridiculous. And think about how much harder it's going to be to get SCART stuff going forward. How long will new decent quality connectors even be available for?

We are stuck with SCART for now, but we'll all be forced away from SCART in due time.
You are right, as a european it makes 0 sense to move away from SCART. If an OSSC Pro or other hardware comes along that will require me to spend a fortune replacing my SCART cables for some other perceived better standard i will either just not do it and thus not buy it, and/or ditch everything and switch to a mister setup or something similar.
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