OSSC Pro

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RocketBelt
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by RocketBelt »

vol.2 wrote:
No, that's not quite it. There is a GPIO header intended for an AV-input board, but it's not currently in the base design. It's for a future update or possibly someone in the community will just build it. Read the first post of this thread.
You're right. Still I think the Pro will have broader appeal if/when it gets bundled with the proposed AV input board.
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

RocketBelt wrote: You're right. Still I think the Pro will have broader appeal if/when it gets bundled with the proposed AV input board.
Yes, I agree. I don't think this project is going for that. It's way too expensive for most people to buy just so they can try upscaling composite and s-video. This thing is for people trying to squeeze above the 98% out of their consoles as it heads to a big fancy flat screen.
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Odolwa
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Odolwa »

I don't see why not just include the S-Video capability from the beginning? People are going to want it anyway.
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by headlesshobbs »

So how are things coming on vga/hdmi sourced materials?

The base ossc is still capable of doing a great job for games on newer consoles via adapter, but I take issue on the fact that you can do the scanlines you want on 1080i sources, yet 1080p doesn't work. There's room to address this issue at some point, but for the pro I hope to see it working correctly out the gate.
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tongshadow
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by tongshadow »

In my experience, at least with the SNES Jr, RGB is a huge leap from S-Video. On my CRT TV S-Video doesnt look that much better than composite, sure, you get no dot-crawling and sharpness is superior. But color bleed is still there and the colors just dont look as good as RGB.

So, I can understand why someone would go the extra mile and invest on enabling RGB on their consoles.
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Darksakul
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Darksakul »

ldeveraux wrote:Sure, but crap in = crap out. Why spend all that money on an OSSC Pro if you're going to send a trash signal to it?
There are other systems/consoles that best they can do is S-video.
If you spending $300+ on a Community developed Open sourced Video processor that runs on FPGA, I want all the input options I can get.
The downside the original OSSC had is the lack of Inputs.

And we see with similar products like the Retrotink X5 that it has issues with some RGB modded consoles, but not their S-video out.
I am not sure if the OSSC Pro is going to have issues with RGB modded 3DO and Sega Master System like the Retrotink X5 did but I do see a pattern.
As those systems also give issues to certain model PVMs.

Check out My Life in Gaming's Retrotink X5 Video to see what the issue I am talking about.
https://youtu.be/FvFzcn8NCb4?t=1904
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Guspaz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Guspaz »

I think that incompatibilities with any scaler should probably wait a while before being judged, since oftentimes they're bugs that can be fixed via firmware updates. Especially with FPGA scalers.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

Guspaz wrote:I think that incompatibilities with any scaler should probably wait a while before being judged, since oftentimes they're bugs that can be fixed via firmware updates. Especially with FPGA scalers.
Many of the incompatibilities are usually related to video frontend chip (any idea what 5X uses?) which might or might not be fixable via FPGA. I spent tons of time working around the issues of TVP7002 in original OSSC but not everything could be fixed in the end. For Pro I selected most capable RGB video digitizer I could find and moved sync processing as much on FPGA side as possible.
Odolwa wrote:I don't see why not just include the S-Video capability from the beginning? People are going to want it anyway.
As briefly mentioned earlier, the board should be technically capable of supporting s-video / cvbs as-is, but it needs PAL/NTSC decoding implemented on the FPGA. We'll see if anyone picks that as a task once the boards are available, but another way is to have a cheap expansion card with a chip from e.g. ADV7280 family that does the job, but ultimately is less flexible than a custom solution.
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Odolwa
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Odolwa »

Will it have USB functionality for updating firmware and adding custom profiles, or will it still use Micro SD?
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BuckoA51
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by BuckoA51 »

MicroSD.
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Odolwa
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Odolwa »

The OSSC does not work for one of my Samsung 1080p TVs, even when I run it through the HDMI out port on my AVerMedia Live Gamer capture card. Will the OSSC Pro have the same problem? Will the Pro have better compatibility with older HD TVs? Does the Retrotink 5X have better compatibility?
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BuckoA51
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by BuckoA51 »

If you go back a page you can see Markus posted an infographic explaining how all the different operating modes work regards compatibility, lag, features etc.
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whatamansion
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by whatamansion »

Odolwa wrote:The OSSC does not work for one of my Samsung 1080p TVs, even when I run it through the HDMI out port on my AVerMedia Live Gamer capture card. Will the OSSC Pro have the same problem? Will the Pro have better compatibility with older HD TVs? Does the Retrotink 5X have better compatibility?
RetroTink 5x tv compatibility is incredible. It solved the SNES and NES issue I had on Sony tv's where it wouldn't work on the original OSSC. Not only can I use triple buffer mode on the 5x, but I can also use frame lock mode (which is what I do use) for the lowest input lag possible. It just works.

I'm pretty sure the OSSC Pro will solve these issues too.
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Odolwa
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Odolwa »

The reason I ask about compatibility, is because I have 2 Samsung 1080p TVs, one of them has major issues with the OSSC and works with very few of the Output Opt settings, and the other one works okay on most of the Output Opt settings. The one that works better, looks very bad when I use the 480p line doubling, the pass-through looks a little better than it, but with line doubling on 480p the colors are very washed out and blurry. I just want to be sure, with older model Samsung 1080p flat screens, there will be better compatibility with the OSSC Pro and the Retrotink5X Pro?
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SCARTicus
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by SCARTicus »

Odolwa wrote:How come no s-video support?
This issue has actually been addressed by the OSSC crew. They made an add-on device for the OSSC called Koryuu. You can buy it from VideoGamePerfection. It's not cheap, but it's good and it is made for the OSSC.

https://videogameperfection.com/product ... ranscoder/

I'm really surprised that we do not see more S-Video discussion around here. It's the next best thing to RGB, can be cabled for peanuts, and is more compatible with stock console setups (at least in what is and was the biggest region by far, NTSC-U).

A RetroTink2X Mini with a RadioShack switcher and a throwaway PC-CRT is an ultra-affordable setup that can yield very good results. No modding, no RGB/sync/cabling bullshit. Of course RGB with professional switchers, premium cabling, and an OSSC on a UXGA Trinitron will yield superior results, but not everyone wants or can afford that kind of setup. Some folk are in the market for a Porsche 911, but for most people a VW Golf is the more sensible and realistic option. Just make sure you get a turbo!

Anyway, we're always talking about the Porsches. I'd be interested in seeing some serious S-Video setups!
RocketBelt
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by RocketBelt »

I'm surprised to see s-video dismissed as 'garbage', as that's not my experience.
Perhaps there are some consoles with poor s-video output. But thats like dismissing rgb bcause the o-xbox does it poorly.
It deserves its own thread.
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SCARTicus
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by SCARTicus »

RocketBelt wrote:I'm surprised to see s-video dismissed as 'garbage', as that's not my experience.
Perhaps there are some consoles with poor s-video output. But thats like dismissing rgb bcause the o-xbox does it poorly.
It deserves its own thread.
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Hoagtech
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Hoagtech »

marqs wrote:
ASDR wrote:The original render of the PCB makes it look like any expansion would dangle precariously from the side of the device. That just seems like something waiting to be unplugged or snapped off. Would it be possible to relocate the expansion port to the back of the device and connect expansions over something flexible, IDE cable like? I'm just trying to imagine how this would end up working on the finished product.
I've thought about adding screw terminals on both sides of the connector which would provide a robust method for attaching expansion modules. They could be connected via a ribbon cable as well, but its length quickly starts to limit bandwidth of the expansion bus so that would work for low-performance peripherals only.
vol.2 wrote:Would you be able to send "windowed" 480p at 540p timings to an HDCRT in order to maintain the native 33.75kHz scan rate?
Adaptive LM mode is already able to do such windowing, and scaler mode will eventually as well if more fancy processing is needed. BTW, what are the 540p timings - same as 1080i but without interlace?
Hi Marqs. I was wondering if your planning on bringing the 480p inside the 540 target to the existing OSSC and was wondering about updates in general to the OSSC..

Are we moving all updates to the future regardless of compatability to steer people to the new device or what’s your plan?

I was considering picking a free WEGA and was looking forward to the 540 target resolution feature.
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BuckoA51
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by BuckoA51 »

Adaptive mode requires a few lines to be buffered, since OSSC classic has no buffer at all it can't be done unfortunately.
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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

Hello,

nice work with this device, it keeps evolving!

I would like to ask if you got an HDCP license or not since it is fundamental to buying ICs with HDMI. And how much total cost? I am asking because I want to create my own scaler but HDMI stuff requires licensing, so I am trying to collect data from actual designers.

thanks again for your efforts, and my best wishes
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

The new prototypes have arrived and passed testing. With the minor upgrades 1080p@120Hz output can be now achieved, but that really pushes the board to its limits. At such rate FPGA temperature starts to rise and silicon subsequently gets slower which is challenging since there is not much timing margin at 1080p@120Hz. One of the 2 boards I have needs active cooling to run it stable so we're adding a fan header on the production PCB and fan mounting holes on the case. The people who really need these extreme modes may need to install a fan like NF-A4x10 5V PWM depending on silicon lottery, others satisfied with 2560x1440@60Hz, 1280x720@120Hz or below should not need one.

Aside from the fan connector PCB is final, but it will be challenging to get it into production during the component shortage we're experiencing now.

About s-video / cvbs support: that would be ideally implemented by doing PAL/NTSC decoding on FPGA, resulting to smallest amount of additional HW and limitations. I can provide a prototype board for a person who is familiar with the subject and would be willing to take lead on developing the feature.
VEGETA wrote:I would like to ask if you got an HDCP license or not since it is fundamental to buying ICs with HDMI. And how much total cost? I am asking because I want to create my own scaler but HDMI stuff requires licensing, so I am trying to collect data from actual designers.

thanks again for your efforts, and my best wishes
OSSC Pro doesn't support HDCP, it'd probably be impossible to get the license for such open HW that does output in unencrypted form. The chips we use are non-HDCP versions. For gaming it doesn't really matter aside from PS3.
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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

marqs wrote:
VEGETA wrote:I would like to ask if you got an HDCP license or not since it is fundamental to buying ICs with HDMI. And how much total cost? I am asking because I want to create my own scaler but HDMI stuff requires licensing, so I am trying to collect data from actual designers.

thanks again for your efforts, and my best wishes
OSSC Pro doesn't support HDCP, it'd probably be impossible to get the license for such open HW that does output in unencrypted form. The chips we use are non-HDCP versions. For gaming it doesn't really matter aside from PS3.
So you didn't get HDCP license, but you still got HDMI license right? how much did it cost? I guess there doesn't exist any IC which supports 4k60 output to HDMI without HDCP.

I assume you got the low volume 5000$ per year license right?

I went for displayport in my design but the output IC doesn't support audio, so my only problem now is how to deliver audio in DP connector!
ldeveraux
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ldeveraux »

VEGETA wrote:
marqs wrote:
VEGETA wrote:I would like to ask if you got an HDCP license or not since it is fundamental to buying ICs with HDMI. And how much total cost? I am asking because I want to create my own scaler but HDMI stuff requires licensing, so I am trying to collect data from actual designers.

thanks again for your efforts, and my best wishes
OSSC Pro doesn't support HDCP, it'd probably be impossible to get the license for such open HW that does output in unencrypted form. The chips we use are non-HDCP versions. For gaming it doesn't really matter aside from PS3.
So you didn't get HDCP license, but you still got HDMI license right? how much did it cost? I guess there doesn't exist any IC which supports 4k60 output to HDMI without HDCP.

I assume you got the low volume 5000$ per year license right?

I went for displayport in my design but the output IC doesn't support audio, so my only problem now is how to deliver audio in DP connector!
I don't think anyone wants financials discussed in a public forum...
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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

it is not about financial stuff only, but rather design choices. I need to know what fellow engineers went through to create their devices... if they wish to, even on PM if public posts are a no-go.
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Dr. Claw
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dr. Claw »

marqs wrote:Aside from the fan connector PCB is final, but it will be challenging to get it into production during the component shortage we're experiencing now.
In other words, we may not see it in 2021?
If PCB is final, can you confirm that earlier design with YPbPr input has RCA audio in?
marqs wrote:About s-video / cvbs support: that would be ideally implemented by doing PAL/NTSC decoding on FPGA, resulting to smallest amount of additional HW and limitations. I can provide a prototype board for a person who is familiar with the subject and would be willing to take lead on developing the feature.
Is this specifically about on the main board or on an expansion? I'm guessing the Koryuu route is best at launch for those looking for CVBS and S-Video in...
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by orange808 »

Dr. Claw wrote:I'm guessing the Koryuu route is best at launch for those looking for CVBS and S-Video in...
Sure, but only those that already own Koryuu should go that route, because it's so far short of what you'll get from a proper add on. Ultimately, we don't want an external device performing ADC, sampling, transcoding, and DAC if it can be avoided. I'm holding out hope the OSSC Pro will have the add on as an option soon after launch.
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Hoagtech
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Hoagtech »

BuckoA51 wrote:Adaptive mode requires a few lines to be buffered, since OSSC classic has no buffer at all it can't be done unfortunately.
If we can target 960p in a 1080p window, then why we can’t we target 480p in 540p with the current release?

I’m not sure where the extra buffering comes into play with this scenario.

Can you explain why if it’s not too much of a burden?
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Guspaz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Guspaz »

The OSSC Classic can't do 960p in a 1080p window either.

The buffering comes in because the framerate is the same, but the amount of time spent sending the 480p or 960p image is reduced compared to the overall frame.

The OSSC will scan out the 540p or 1080p scanlines faster than it receives the 480p or 960p scanlines, but the total time per frame is the same. So the OSSC would need to buffer enough lines to cover the time it spends sending out blank 540p or 1080p scanlines. If my math is right, it needs to buffer ~54 480p scanlines (or 27 240p scanlines) in order to output it in a 540p window without running out of scanlines to send.

The OSSC doesn't have enough RAM for that, AFAIK. Then again, AFAIK it has to buffer some lines to do the cropped 1080p output it already does, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hoagtech
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Hoagtech »

Guspaz wrote:The OSSC Classic can't do 960p in a 1080p window either.

The buffering comes in because the framerate is the same, but the amount of time spent sending the 480p or 960p image is reduced compared to the overall frame.

The OSSC will scan out the 540p or 1080p scanlines faster than it receives the 480p or 960p scanlines, but the total time per frame is the same. So the OSSC would need to buffer enough lines to cover the time it spends sending out blank 540p or 1080p scanlines. If my math is right, it needs to buffer ~54 480p scanlines in order to output it in a 540p window without running out of scanlines to send.

The OSSC doesn't have enough RAM for that, AFAIK. Then again, AFAIK it has to buffer some lines to do the cropped 1080p output it already does, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh weird I’m surprised my sets were preserving 960p in a 1080p window. That makes sense..
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strayan
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by strayan »

Hoagtech wrote: Oh weird I’m surprised my sets were preserving 960p in a 1080p window. That makes sense.
AFAIK some sets will do this if the signal does not meet CEA compliance.
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