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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:39 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
Why does it seem like you're trying to get information from the 3 other major device creators to make your own device to compete with? Why would anyone share that information if you're just using it to cut into their profits?

Open Source Scan Converter thread.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:44 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
Lol no I am not trying to get info or something. I always like to learn such stuff and see what other people do, especially that I aim to do a similar thing. I never asked about any secret or confidential thing but rather I feel like my questions are repeated here. Plus, I gave him a nice advice about video decoder IC since I saw that it wasn't in his initial plan and it is better + cheaper than his current one.... this is open source project so getting such questions and advises is normal.

My own project is very long term and won't see the light soon, if any. but I hope I succeed and will put effort.
That's contradictory within the same reply. You're not trying to "get info" but you're trying to make your own similar device, and you ask many questions on how to do this. I don't care if you plan on releasing this in a decade, if I was a device creator and you are basically going to sell something similar, I certainly wouldn't be free with that info. Is good to have options in those devices, but imho this is too far. You're not even asking them privately, that I could understand. You're putting people on the spot making some feel guilty for not sharing compared to those who do.



Again, I am asking normal questions for someone who knows electronics and interested in them. The people who are directed by my posts seem to reply with ease, if they told me I should go private then I would have. I asked since the design is open! please try to understand this, the device creator himself mentioned this and posted his entire files for free... he even posted a picture of the pro model system design with part numbers of nearly all ICs which no designer will! no one works in private or for non-open source design will ever share design stuff with anyone.

The sole purpose of open source design is to allow people to modify it or build a better version based on it... and I mentioned many times that my design is entirely different than this one (and everyone) since I don't use FPGA at all (my FPGA skills are so low) but rather a dedicated chip. I even suggested to him ICs which I myself decided to use. He took my advice with ease but rejected my suggested IC for his reasons. No problem.

Asking about HDMI licensing is what I wanted since it was a shock to me and completely new thing that I know nothing about... shouldn't I ask those who actually succeeded doing it? I mean I know electronics and hardware design but no licensing stuff.

please don't try to be hard on others if they ask questions which you deem as inappropriate. if the designer asked me not to post them in his thread, then I will gladly accept.

thanks for your understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 pm 


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GPL 3.0 is a copyleft viral licence. If you openly borrow from a GPL 3.0 project, your project must also be open source under GPL 3.0. Mind the details and the agreement. It's not MIT. Obviously, if you're poking around in someone's repo for breadcrumbs, you wouldn't go round telling the world about it.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:11 pm 



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Posts: 763
NormalFish wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Why does it seem like you're trying to get information from the 3 other major device creators to make your own device to compete with? Why would anyone share that information if you're just using it to cut into their profits?

Open Source Scan Converter thread.
The open source concept is typically appropriate for software, not hardware. Even so, there's nothing open source with the Morph he's also trying to ape.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:04 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1513
ldeveraux wrote:
The open source concept is typically appropriate for software, not hardware. Even so, there's nothing open source with the Morph he's also trying to ape.


That's kinda too harsh IMO. On the Morph topic he's really just been asking about HDMI/HDCP licensing costs. A bit too direct and insistent perhaps--could be that English is not his first language, or because he's Vegeta :mrgreen: --but nothing that seems to suggest he's trying to take something from another project's design for his own.

We have someone here saying he's planning work on a 4K scaler that might be affordable, either he's too naive or somehow stumbled into a possibility that for whatever reason everyone else has missed, which is least likely but would be quite interesting if it's the case.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:48 am 


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ldeveraux wrote:
NormalFish wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Why does it seem like you're trying to get information from the 3 other major device creators to make your own device to compete with? Why would anyone share that information if you're just using it to cut into their profits?

Open Source Scan Converter thread.
The open source concept is typically appropriate for software, not hardware. Even so, there's nothing open source with the Morph he's also trying to ape.


I disagree with you, open source works very well for hardware too. it is just you can't copy a board in your hand but rather its design. I suggest you check open hardware EEVBlog video.

On the side of questions, even if it is open source or not, asking fellow engineers design questions is totally ok and nothing is ever wrong in that. be it direct or indirect doesn't matter. if someone doesn't want to answer such questions, it is ok too. but to blame someone for learning and collecting valuable info is just not proper. Just go and hangout in EEVBlog forums and see that there are dedicated forums and sub-forums for design discussions between everyone and in details! this is not something new or odd at all. no one wonder or find it inappropriate that engineers and designers ask such questions to each other :|


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GPL 3.0 is a copyleft viral licence. If you openly borrow from a GPL 3.0 project, your project must also be open source under GPL 3.0. Mind the details and the agreement. It's not MIT. Obviously, if you're poking around in someone's repo for breadcrumbs, you wouldn't go round telling the world about it.


With all respect to you, but you are mistaken, and by a big amount.

copyleft and open licenses are applicable the way you described only if you quote the entire design and made your own version of it, or improved it, or made v2...etc. However, taking design ideas or benefit from it or anything similar doesn't force you to share it in the same license!

for example: if I lurk in ossc repo and then download all the design files... spend 1 year enhancing it and created OSSC 2. Now OSSC 2 must be open source with the same license.

While if I studied the design and saw how he implemented video decoding and I liked it, then I can use the same idea or idea inspired by it in my design without the need to share the entire design using the same license. Grey area between the two is also very well there.


one final note about license costs: for a long time i didn't think there is any money to be paid for hdmi and didn't know hdcp existed. However, when i started digging into it I saw that there are annual payments which are not small. therefore, I saw a video showing ossc with DVI to avoid HDMI licensing fees, but later on it became with HDMI. Other retro products using HDMI as well... so I wondered if these guys, single engineers, one-man band actually paying for all that!? or is there another way or "glitch" they are using to avoid it.

First I chose certain HDMI capable ICs which should work straight out of the box but later on I found that I need to pay a lot to be able to use them, I didn't really expect that or to that degree.
Then I started contacting lots of IC manufacturers to search for ICs which can do DP 1.2 instead of HDMI due to licensing... it is very tiring and frustrating. hdcp and hdmi people are so bad since they kinda rule all IC manufacturers to their liking and prevent them from sharing or selling their IC but to adopters...etc.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:29 pm 


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If you didn't make IP yourself, don't want to purchase a licence, and there's nothing available under a permissive open source licence, you can't sell a closed source product. Yep. That's how it works.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:09 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
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VEGETA wrote:
On the side of questions, even if it is open source or not, asking fellow engineers design questions is totally ok and nothing is ever wrong in that. be it direct or indirect doesn't matter. if someone doesn't want to answer such questions, it is ok too. but to blame someone for learning and collecting valuable info is just not proper. Just go and hangout in EEVBlog forums and see that there are dedicated forums and sub-forums for design discussions between everyone and in details! this is not something new or odd at all. no one wonder or find it inappropriate that engineers and designers ask such questions to each other :|


You don't understand what I'm critical of and that's the problem. Do you plan on selling this device or giving it away for free? If you plan to collect dollar 1, then from my outsider's perspective it looks like you are asking for proprietary information from others under the guise of simply needing advice. Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly. But what if I'm the one who's right and nobody else called you on that? That's a slippery slope to teeter about. :| Maybe I should have done this in the Morph thread where I feel more harm could be done, but I thought this was your latest comment was made...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:38 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 303
Location: The Netherlands
Maybe a good time to split off the last few pages of this thread?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:11 pm 


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Might be time for a big bang attack or gallet gun tbh


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:51 pm 


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Quote:
If you didn't make IP yourself, don't want to purchase a licence, and there's nothing available under a permissive open source licence, you can't sell a closed source product. Yep. That's how it works.


I don't know what are you talking about. I mean, I can't benefit of a certain open source circuit in my design? or you mean stuff about hdmi licensing being mandatory for selling commercial products?

Quote:
If you plan to collect dollar 1, then from my outsider's perspective it looks like you are asking for proprietary information from others under the guise of simply needing advice.


this or that doesn't matter, asking such questions for whatever reason is ok. just go and check eevblog projects and designs sub-forums. especially that I don't force people to answer, they decide what is secret or not. actually ossc + morph + 5x are kinda the same or similar thing... they all use fpga to do the scaling and line manipulation, while the rest is typical (RX and TX of signal..etc). they didn't keep their key design feature a secret either.

anyway, I don't want to bother the thread owner of side discussions, so let this be the final post in the topic.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:20 pm 



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VEGETA wrote:
actually ossc + morph + 5x are kinda the same or similar thing... they all use fpga to do the scaling and line manipulation, while the rest is typical (RX and TX of signal..etc). they didn't keep their key design feature a secret either.


Those are from exceptionally well regarded developers with more than 19 posts. We have no clue where you came from.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:37 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
actually ossc + morph + 5x are kinda the same or similar thing... they all use fpga to do the scaling and line manipulation, while the rest is typical (RX and TX of signal..etc). they didn't keep their key design feature a secret either.


Those are from exceptionally well regarded developers with more than 19 posts. We have no clue where you came from.


why are you even saying this? did I ever insulted them or you in my speech? I don't understand really. All I did is that I pointed out that these designs are using the same methodology which is announced by the developers themselves. look into their official pages and will see them pointing out it is an FPGA product. Combine the FPGA with video digitizer ICs + HDMI transmitter ICs and you will get pretty much everything if you don't mention other stuff like microcontroller, power supply circuit, and so on.. Therefore, me asking them design stuff can never reveal any key secrets since it is an FPGA product, not using some unique IC or so.

Now my posts are 20.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:02 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 763
VEGETA wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
actually ossc + morph + 5x are kinda the same or similar thing... they all use fpga to do the scaling and line manipulation, while the rest is typical (RX and TX of signal..etc). they didn't keep their key design feature a secret either.


Those are from exceptionally well regarded developers with more than 19 posts. We have no clue where you came from.


why are you even saying this? did I ever insulted them or you in my speech? I don't understand really. All I did is that I pointed out that these designs are using the same methodology which is announced by the developers themselves. look into their official pages and will see them pointing out it is an FPGA product. Combine the FPGA with video digitizer ICs + HDMI transmitter ICs and you will get pretty much everything if you don't mention other stuff like microcontroller, power supply circuit, and so on.. Therefore, me asking them design stuff can never reveal any key secrets since it is an FPGA product, not using some unique IC or so.

Now my posts are 20.


haha ok, I've done enough ribbing. good luck to you on your device.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:23 pm 


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on another side, it looks to me that ossc pro will be very wide physical design. any official or estimated dimensions so far? the original one is very compact and I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:51 pm 


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VEGETA wrote:
on another side, it looks to me that ossc pro will be very wide physical design. any official or estimated dimensions so far? the original one is very compact and I like it.
The board is 215mm wide and 100mm deep. Some people would have like scart on the back too which would've made it even wider, but for them there is an option to use a custom scart->de15 adapter/cable that doesn't require any active/passive components.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:21 pm 



Joined: 20 Apr 2018
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Location: St Louis, IL, USA
It's now June, can you provide a road map for the OSSC Pro for the rest of the year?

Also, are you able to add a LPF to the VGA/D-15 connector? On the OSSC I have to use that for some arcade boards like the Taito F3 and there is no LPF on AV3. I also prefer to use D15 now instead of SCART for the connector, especially since on the Pro you moved the input to the back.

For my $.02, I wish you had skipped SCART and gone with min din 8 out the back...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:25 pm 


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SCART is dick cancer but mini DIN 8 is double butt cancer


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm 



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XtraSmiley wrote:
Also, are you able to add a LPF to the VGA/D-15 connector?


It's been confirmed since the beginning that the Pro will have LPF options for this connector as well so no worries.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:19 pm 


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marqs wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
on another side, it looks to me that ossc pro will be very wide physical design. any official or estimated dimensions so far? the original one is very compact and I like it.
The board is 215mm wide and 100mm deep. Some people would have like scart on the back too which would've made it even wider, but for them there is an option to use a custom scart->de15 adapter/cable that doesn't require any active/passive components.


it is very wide indeed, I assume you want custom injection molded enclosure? check a case from takachi or hammond or similar then base the design around it, then they will customize it for you. more that 10 times cheaper.

I do like scart in the design for sure, no need for conversion.

if you go with 6 RCA jacks + one s-video connector on one side, it will surely be long... let alone adding scart to it and vga.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:03 pm 


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check a case from takachi or hammond or similar then base the design around it, then they will customize it for you. more that 10 times cheaper.

I just worked with Takachi. Injection molded cases are certainly cheaper per piece once the form has been paid and created. Really depends on the scope of the project and the total number of cases estimated. For small one time projects companies like Takachi are really great, but if you're doing multiple runs, possible thousands of units, then injection molding gets cheaper (per piece) pretty fast. For medium numbers (usually up to 5000 pcs) there are also aluminum forms that can be used and that only cost a fraction of a steel tool.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:38 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
check a case from takachi or hammond or similar then base the design around it, then they will customize it for you. more that 10 times cheaper.

I just worked with Takachi. Injection molded cases are certainly cheaper per piece once the form has been paid and created. Really depends on the scope of the project and the total number of cases estimated. For small one time projects companies like Takachi are really great, but if you're doing multiple runs, possible thousands of units, then injection molding gets cheaper (per piece) pretty fast. For medium numbers (usually up to 5000 pcs) there are also aluminum forms that can be used and that only cost a fraction of a steel tool.


Yes, injection molding is cheaper when you want many and many pieces like in the 1000s but I wonder what happens to your form mold after you finish one run? do they return it to you then you send it to them when you want another run 3 months later?

You still have to factor in silkscreening and stuff, but yes, most price is for the case itself.

I am interested in those aluminum forms and how much do they cost if they are going to be a lot cheaper... can you name a company who does them?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:54 am 


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I wonder what happens to your form mold after you finish one run? do they return it to you then you send it to them when you want another run 3 months later?

they usually stay at the facility and are hold available for 3 years free of charge. After that you have to pay a storage fee (unless you do another run). A steel tool for a case like the one required for the OSSC pro is several hundred kg in weight, so shipping it back and forth is not really an option.

Quote:
I am interested in those aluminum forms and how much do they cost if they are going to be a lot cheaper... can you name a company who does them?

there are so many companies doing this. Protolabs for example is a well known one.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:23 pm 


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There is also the choice of bent steel/aluminum sheetmetal cases, those are probably cheaper to have custom made in small runs since they don't need a mold. Basically they just need to take sheets of metal, cut holes to your specifications with a CNC, then bend them to make a box of the desired size.


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